Silver Age Comics and Cream Pages

[COI]

i think the whole PQ thing is overblown, personally, as it concerns the dreaded "Cream to Off-White" pages grade. if CGC hadn't put PQ on the labels to begin with, 90% of people would not care one iota.

 

Exactly.

 

I'm much more concerned with the color of the back cover, something I can actually see. There's a book on ebay right in a grade I want, with perfect centering and white pages. That's great, except for the fact that the back cover looks really creamy. I don't want to point out the book because it's not fair to the seller, but IMO the state of the back cover, something many people don't seem to care about, is MUCH more important than the PQ on the label.

 

And to answer the question, I don't buy books with liquidity in mind, so I don't care. Registration, overall freshness, and other eye-appeal factors are much more important to me, especially if I can get a discount on a "creamy" labeled book.

[COI]

So your collecting philosophy is out of sight out of mind? Just because I can't see the pages doesn't mean PQ isn't important to me.

 

I went through a phase where I decide to crack several of my books out of their slabs. One of them was CR-OW. To be honest, while there was a slight difference, it was VERY slight.

 

Now, you can write that off as one person's experience on one book, but it was enough to convince me not to be scared off by CR-OW on the label, and that it wasn't worth a premium to get a "white" copy.

 

But I collect lowly POS 9.0's and 9.2's from the most common SA title out there, so what do I know?

[Sal]

t's the single most subjective call in comics, principally because there's never been a standard that's stuck

 

Do you think it easier to combine a multitude of factors into a single numeric grade than it is easier to assign some value to page qualify?

 

If we assembled 20 experienced dealers/collectors together we could achieve consensus pretty quickly on page quality as it's fairly close to a factual determination. But getting those same 20 to define which particular defects (e.g. stains, creases, NCBs, mis-wraps, trimming) cause a book to receive a specific grade would be a more difficult proposition.

 

Robert Rotor (Pacific Comic Exchange) used 10 designations for page quality and was quite good at it from what I could tell. I think I could teach someone faster to judge page quality than I could comic grading but it helps to have examples at the extreme ends of the range. It's also necessary to perform the check in consistent light to avoid having that skew the results. To that end I use a light that emulates sunlight very closely -- and this is something I passed on to Borock in the early days of CGC as it seemed to me they could be more consistent.

 

Initially CGC had no plans to put PQ on the label but the feedback from a number of high-grade collectors encouraged them to include it. I'm personally quite happy that they have PQ on the label as I'm fairly picky about it and not just because I de-slab my purchases. White pages are a sign of comic book health and for a piece of ephemera that's quite ephemeral I prefer comics that will last as long as possible. Would I turn down Cr-Ow in all circumstances? No, because CGC still isn't all that consistent as I can tell from side by side comparison after de-slabbing.

 

i don't see anything in this post that contradicts what i was saying. is there an achievable standard? sure. it's probably, as you say, not at all difficult to identify a book's PQ, once one has been shown what to look for. but has that standard been accepted as widely as even the OGG Grading standards? i don't think you can argue that.

 

my argument about subjectiveness refers to the concept that even a n00b collector can look at a book and see what general range it should fall in, even if not using standard grading nomenclature. assessing PQ correctly involves looking at a LOT of books, to become familiar with the differences in paper stocks and the relative lightness of each type.

 

couple that with the fact that CGC has admitted to an overly harsh grading standard vis a vis PQ in the beginning, and i think it's an easy leap of logic to say that the average - or more importantly, new - collector of SA books couldn't pick CR/OW pages off an unmarked colour chart if their life depended on it.

 

i'd agree with you 100% that its important that CGC put PQ on the label. i've always said that CGC puts too little information on the label in a general sense, and having PQ is absolutely necessary, for the points you bring up, and other reasons, as well.

 

my whole argument was that the vast majority of collectors don't know what the difference is between OW/W and CR/OW, even if you and tth2 do.

[Sal]

i think the whole PQ thing is overblown, personally, as it concerns the dreaded "Cream to Off-White" pages grade. if CGC hadn't put PQ on the labels to begin with, 90% of people would not care one iota.

This might be one of the first posts in a while where you and I were really poles apart. I think you've got it reversed. Collectors did care about PQ and told CGC that important information was missing from the label, and CGC duly complied by listing PQ. The market has since spoken and confirmed that PQ on the label does matter to many collectors. It's definitely less important than the big grade number, but still important.

I must have done a terrible job at communicating my position, as both you and adamstrange seem to have inferred that my 90% number would have included the type of collector who communicated directly with Steve B. and the fellas at CGC at the outset. Was this a large group of people that made their interest in having PQ on the label, or a smaller, long-term group of collectors who may have known some of the principals involved?

 

I think PQ matters to most people in the same sense that "9.8" matters. Many would have a hard time explaining the difference between a 9.8 and a 9.6, much less CR/OW and OW PQ. I'd be shocked if 50% of all collectors who had even heard of CGC could tell you how you properly asses PQ, and why you often have two grades for same.

 

i really don't understand it as it pertains to "slab collectors." if you don't crack the book out ever, who really cares? if the eye appeal is excellent, and the book's going to stay in the slab in perpetuity, turning down a CROW book solely because of the CROW distinction seems kind of stupid in my opinion.

So your collecting philosophy is out of sight out of mind? Just because I can't see the pages doesn't mean PQ isn't important to me. I was into white pages well before CGC came into existence, and they mattered into me even though I rarely broke my books out of their mylars to look at the interior pages. As Adam has also pointed out, PQ can also be an indication of the health of the book, although of course CGC may not always get it right.

 

In fact, the fact that I can't see and check the PQ myself without breaking the slab means it's even more important to have CGC give its opinion of the PQ. Otherwise, how would I know I'm not buying some book with a nice condition cover but mouldering brown dust underneath?

 

Please, please, please don't put words in my mouth. I have never claimed - nor does my buying record show - that I am a "slab collector." Please don't mix my personal collecting philosophy with an example I make as way of debating.

 

And again, I specifically and purposefully said "...turning down a CROW book solely because of the CROW distinction seems kind of stupid in my opinion." If you can find the book in the same grade all day long, well that would fall under mitigating circumstances. My experience is that there are some books you would do well to buy if the eye appeal is of sufficient quality, even if the books are Cream to Off-White

 

 

[mica]

I purposely tan pages to avoid blindness in my later years.

[namisgr]

i really don't understand it as it pertains to "slab collectors." if you don't crack the book out ever, who really cares? if the eye appeal is excellent, and the book's going to stay in the slab in perpetuity, turning down a CROW book solely because of the CROW distinction seems kind of stupid in my opinion.

 

Don't know about you, but I collect comic books, and not comic book covers. I also collect comic books, and not numbers on CGC labels. Having perused the interiors of thousands of comics I can say with certainty that, for me, the preservation quality of the interior is an important factor for overall appeal and desirability. Ever compared two copies of the same book, one with white and the other cream to off-white pages? Huge diff in desirability.

 

Also, poor preservation of page quality is sometimes accompanied by poor preservation of cover colors, both interior and exterior. Ever had a book with browning of the interior cover margins? Another strong undesirable. One that I've never seen on a book with white pages.

[Sal]

Why is the assumption that I was talking about me when I say "slab collectors?"

 

 

My point was not for those of us who prefer raw copies, but rather for those who prefer slabbed copies and who would never crack a book out!

 

[chrisco37]

I've got no problem with CROW pages. Especially considering they tend to be priced $50-75 bucks lower than their OW counterparts.

 

Same price? Almost always, I'll take the higher PQ.

 

But, I usually look for QP first and foremost. After that, I'll check out the pages. A 9.2 W badly miswrapped vs. a 9.2 CROW perfect registration, same price? I'll take the CROW book.

[rodan57]

White pages are a sign of comic book health and for a piece of ephemera that's quite ephemeral I prefer comics that will last as long as possible.

 

A nice line and a good phrase, "comic book health".

 

My 12¢

Dennis

[tth2]

Why is the assumption that I was talking about me when I say "slab collectors?"

I didn't. I assumed you were talking about "you slab collectors". i.e., not Sal. Being one such "slab collector", and I think Bob is making the same point, being a collector who buys slabbed books doesn't mean we've lost touch with what's inside the slab.

[tth2]

Based on the sale of a CGC 9.4 Showcase #35 with C-OW pages that just sold on eBay for a ridiculously low price, I'd have to say that Cream pages definitely had a big impact in this case, and it's not like 9.4 early Showcases grow on trees. Time of year probably didn't help the sale either, but I know that I only put in a tepid bid because of the C-OW pages, and another big DC collector was not interested in the book for the same reason. So great opportunities for those who don't care about PQ as much.

[shiverbones]

I didn't used to care at all, my only caveat was I wanted the paper to be really strong on anything post 1956. Lately though I have gotten a few white paged late 50's books and I am really impressed by how fresh they look, so I may be tightening up a bit.

[Sal]

Why is the assumption that I was talking about me when I say "slab collectors?"

I didn't. I assumed you were talking about "you slab collectors". i.e., not Sal. Being one such "slab collector", and I think Bob is making the same point, being a collector who buys slabbed books doesn't mean we've lost touch with what's inside the slab.

 

i see. my definition of "slab collector" is "buy the grade, not the book," rather than "one who prefers to collect slabbed copies." i don't think that refers to either you or Mr. Siman.

 

but i acknowledge that my definition would have been hard to get from the way i phrased it, and accept full responsibility for the miscommunication

[adamstrange]

t's the single most subjective call in comics, principally because there's never been a standard that's stuck

 

Do you think it easier to combine a multitude of factors into a single numeric grade than it is easier to assign some value to page qualify?

 

If we assembled 20 experienced dealers/collectors together we could achieve consensus pretty quickly on page quality as it's fairly close to a factual determination. But getting those same 20 to define which particular defects (e.g. stains, creases, NCBs, mis-wraps, trimming) cause a book to receive a specific grade would be a more difficult proposition.

 

Robert Rotor (Pacific Comic Exchange) used 10 designations for page quality and was quite good at it from what I could tell. I think I could teach someone faster to judge page quality than I could comic grading but it helps to have examples at the extreme ends of the range. It's also necessary to perform the check in consistent light to avoid having that skew the results. To that end I use a light that emulates sunlight very closely -- and this is something I passed on to Borock in the early days of CGC as it seemed to me they could be more consistent.

 

Initially CGC had no plans to put PQ on the label but the feedback from a number of high-grade collectors encouraged them to include it. I'm personally quite happy that they have PQ on the label as I'm fairly picky about it and not just because I de-slab my purchases. White pages are a sign of comic book health and for a piece of ephemera that's quite ephemeral I prefer comics that will last as long as possible. Would I turn down Cr-Ow in all circumstances? No, because CGC still isn't all that consistent as I can tell from side by side comparison after de-slabbing.

 

i don't see anything in this post that contradicts what i was saying. is there an achievable standard? sure. it's probably, as you say, not at all difficult to identify a book's PQ, once one has been shown what to look for. but has that standard been accepted as widely as even the OGG Grading standards? i don't think you can argue that.

 

my argument about subjectiveness refers to the concept that even a n00b collector can look at a book and see what general range it should fall in, even if not using standard grading nomenclature. assessing PQ correctly involves looking at a LOT of books, to become familiar with the differences in paper stocks and the relative lightness of each type.

 

couple that with the fact that CGC has admitted to an overly harsh grading standard vis a vis PQ in the beginning, and i think it's an easy leap of logic to say that the average - or more importantly, new - collector of SA books couldn't pick CR/OW pages off an unmarked colour chart if their life depended on it.

 

i'd agree with you 100% that its important that CGC put PQ on the label. i've always said that CGC puts too little information on the label in a general sense, and having PQ is absolutely necessary, for the points you bring up, and other reasons, as well.

 

my whole argument was that the vast majority of collectors don't know what the difference is between OW/W and CR/OW, even if you and tth2 do.

 

How many collectors really know about grading? If ebay is any indication...

 

The CGC community is small and there are even a number of sophisticated collectors on the boards who admit that they wouldn't buy raw books because they aren't comfortable with their grading skills. To the extent that grading is viewed as more important and may be more consistent is because of CGC imposing a standard on the hobby. There were some guidelines (Overstreet etc) with gaps through which you could drive a truck, but CGC had to sort through all sorts of decisions about the weighting of various types of defects to narrow those gaps. Not all of the decisions are to the liking of some based on what I read on the boards.

 

CGC could (and probably is)having a similar impact on page quality (and the more consistent they are the greater their impact). If there's money to be made by purchasing raw white paged books and slabbing them, the community will learn to do it and find, in the process, that's it's not that hard when there are basically only 5 levels of PQ to choose from.

 

Should the slab collector care? I think they probably should for the reasons I outlined. If they don't it's all the better for me as it lessens competition.

 

 

[spookley]

Though I agree that the PQ ranking has a direct correllation to desirability (and consequently value/price), I personally will take C-OW, at the right price, for 3 reasons:

 

1) They're cheaper & receive less competition when bidding.

 

2) Time-line/preservation: Discussions with some of the archival pros here say that PQ degeneration is slow under ideal conditions (which I adhere to) and could take "decades" to make a difference.

 

3) Especially if the slabs I buy are old labels, I'll re-sub & more times than not get a bump to OW or better!

 

I guess a good follow-up query would be,

"Which would you prefer- a 9.4 C-OW or a 9.2 OW-W? How far does the PQ gap have to be to make a difference?"

 

Rick

 

 

If it was an old label 9.4 C-OW, I would definately resubmit to get a PQ bump

I probably would not buy a new label 9.4 C-OW and never a book with cream pages.

I would prefer a 9.2 OW-W over a new label 9.4 C-OW.

[Tatterdamillion]

I would have loved that Showcase #35 for that price. I don't mind the page quality issue too much. I wish I had the money.

[frankiecastle]

Based on the sale of a CGC 9.4 Showcase #35 with C-OW pages that just sold on eBay for a ridiculously low price, I'd have to say that Cream pages definitely had a big impact in this case, and it's not like 9.4 early Showcases grow on trees. Time of year probably didn't help the sale either, but I know that I only put in a tepid bid because of the C-OW pages, and another big DC collector was not interested in the book for the same reason. So great opportunities for those who don't care about PQ as much.

[Jeffro.]

It all depends on what I'm looking for. Some SA books are more difficult to come by than others. I can either buy one labeled as C/OW or wait for a OW/W or W.

 

If it's a common SA book, I'll likely not buy any with a C on the label (or raw cream page books either). If it's a not so common book then I would consider a C/OW.