London comicon report (October 5th)

[Flaming_Telepath]

Very interesting thread, and nice to see such levels of involvement from us Brits. Thanks to Osborn-France for starting it. Glad to hear he enjoyed himself and hope to see him back in London again soon.

 

All of those niceties over with, a few points that I’d like to take issue with….

 

When mention is made of ‘over-pricing’ at shows, I feel a slight twinge of annoyance run through my addled brains. The first question I have is…define over-priced? I suspect that in the main, what is meant is ‘over-priced compared to eBay’. Which should actually read as ‘more expensive than eBay’. Just because items are dearer at shows or in stores doesn’t mean they are necessarily ‘over-priced’ per se. It simply means that you can get them cheaper elsewhere. And why can you get them cheaper elsewhere?

 

Because anybody can set themselves up as an eBay seller with little or no overheads, can sell utter junk without fear of reprisal, can carry very little stock at any one time and therefore have no need to sink thousands and thousands into providing an impressive array of items that will draw the punters in. They can miss out on the six a.m. starts and the hauling of boxes in torrential rain, they don’t have to pay additional staff to simply provide security against thievery, they don’t have to declare their ill-gotten gains to the tax man and therefore lose a fair chuck of their profit.

 

The fact of the matter is that dealers at shows or in stores are more visible, as is their stock, and they are directly answerable to their customers. Believe it or not, not everyone buys their books through eBay. Not everyone wants to buy their books through eBay…strange but true…and prefers to get to grips with them up close and personal. There’s a cost associated with that, but at least they get precisely what they are paying for and if they don’t like it, they can walk away.

 

Another comment that I take exception to is the falsehood that every mart sees the same old stock being dusted down and trundled out for the umpteenth show on the run. Yes, a number of dealers do this, but then again, they pay for this approach in the pocket…their rather empty pockets. And for every one of them who makes no effort, there is another dealer who is busting his balls to have new stock for every single show. Not just one or two books, but one or two boxes of new stuff! Richard Crane does so, as does Andy at Goldust, and I know I do.

 

And what’s all this about UK dealers avoiding CGC? Look again at that photo posted by Osborn France. What’s that wall display look like to you? And those three boxes in the middle of the table? CGC books, possibly? All of them? Yup, thought so.

 

And isn’t it all laid out so neatly? No bending, stooping, jumping…and not a 2000AD in sight!

 

And one little picky irritation that I’m sure will meet with very differing opinions…what does it matter what state the CGC case is in? Providing it’s not cracked, or the pins are popped, what’s the difference? Let’s remind ourselves that the plastic is worthless…it’s the book inside that matters, or have we moved on from that position? Sooner or later, folk will start grading the frickin’ slabs!

 

I think my message is this….please don’t make sweeping generalisations regarding the state of the UK market, and the shows, based on the performance of a handful of dealers. There are some of us who are trying to make a difference and drag the UK into the 21st century…frequent new stock, high grade items and a choice of CGC books…so please give us a bit of credit where it’s due.

 

Oh, and Kev? After staying up all night getting ready for the show, hauling boxes in and out of cars before dawn has broken, trying to unload in a double-parked side-street with rain sheeting down, putting up a display and tables, and generally wearing myself out before the doors have even opened, there’s not way you’re going to stop me smoking behind the table. If I didn’t, that ‘chit-chat’ you crave would be somewhat abusive, I can promise you that!

[chrisco37]

what does it matter what state the CGC case is in? Providing it’s not cracked, or the pins are popped, what’s the difference? Let’s remind ourselves that the plastic is worthless…it’s the book inside that matters, or have we moved on from that position? Sooner or later, folk will start grading the frickin’ slabs!

 

I'm with you on this one. I really don't care what shape the slab is in as long as the book inside is ok. A scratched slab? So what?

 

there’s not way you’re going to stop me smoking behind the table.

 

Smoke will ruin your books! I'm a smoker, but do not smoke in my house b/c of the possible damage to my books.

 

Chris

[Flaming_Telepath]

Yeah, I know, I know. I generally keep away from the books with the cigs (and certainly never smoke over the boxes), but on show days, it's either that or I go postal...and that's so not good for the books!

[Foolkiller]

Actually... overpriced can mean two things:

 

1) It's well above average market price (including shows, ebay, heritage, stores etc.)

 

and

 

2) overpriced in the mind of the collector who believes they can get in cheaper (i.e. overpriced to them.

 

Any dealer can charge anything they want to charge, and any consumer can and will often refer to those products as over priced.

 

I certainly don't only refer to a book as overpriced simply because I can get it cheaper on ebay... but many dealers (especially in the mid to low grade area) have their books too far above guide. Since I can go to dolgoff, koch, attend a local show OR can get them off ebay in similar shape, often times with more room to negotiate than dealers who set up at larger shows, then I think overpriced is a fair term to use.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I agree that 'over-priced' can be applied to books that are stickered well over guide for the grade, especially in the mid range.

But knowing intimately what is generally charged at the London shows, I don't think that that is what is being refered to here. Having been on the end of numerous 'I can get it cheaper on eBay' conversations, I drew this conclusion.

And I charge below guide on low to mid, and slightly above on higher grade stuff.

 

You just can't win.

[goldust40]

Excellent post! I can't add much to Flaming Telepath's points (although I'd like to know which dealer he is!) Not all U.K. dealers are the same - some do avidly follow U.S. market trends (it'd be absurd not to), and make an effort - the result being that quality of stock has improved, along with buyers' tastes (seriously!)

 

The U.K. dealer has certainly been the target for a lot of bile and spleen over the years, (some of it deserved, some not) but as Flaming Telepath has pointed out, you live and die by your stock and it's presentation. It's just possible that some mart buyers may have learnt a little by going to shows and discussing collecting with dealers. Any dealer worth his salt is a FAN of this medium (I know I am) and will push rare or unusual product (i.e. pre- Silver Age!) mainly for commercial purposes but partly because he likes it and wants to spread his interest. It does take a bit longer for the U.K. market to adjust ( to CGC books, for example) but it will.

 

Oops. That sounded a bit idealistic, that last bit. Anyway, I can't argue with FT's point about hauling stock in when it's bucketing down, which, seeing as this is England we're talking about, it often does. Bloody annoying that. I usually vent my rage on the hired help (they get paid enough!)

[EwanUK]

hooray - Brits rule these boards! (erm... thanks to the French)

 

SWEEPING GENERALISATIONS:

Ok chaps! (Goldust & Flaming Telegraph) fair enough - it's true, I am making unfair generalisations but I do so in the spirit of stimulating debate. To be honest, there are some GREAT dealers out there - it's just the bad ones that kind of leave the lasting impression (and smell). I'll try and be a bit more open minded in future - and give everyone a more specific and balanced report on the next mart (December 7th I think?). Can't say fairer than that.

However, please never go to the marts in Cheshunt (in Herfordshire too, Darth) - grim, dirty and lifeless... much like a girl I once knew.

 

Any opinions on SilverAcre? ComicBiz? Good or bad?

(Erm... can we be sued for libel on these boards? The yanks will know surely)

 

ENCRUSTED

Goldust, particularly liked the use of the word "encrusted" in your post. You is funny back mate!

 

STOOPING

I regularly go to to most of the London comic shops - and even the new FP with it's "400 miles of shelving" still requires excessive stooping in places. Couple that with the requirement for binoculars and a vice like grip (to extract comics from long boxes) at most marts and it's clear that this is not a hobby for the physically challenged! (Ironic really!)

 

SCRATCHED CASES

I'm standing by this as well. Why go to all the trouble of grading - then presenting the finished product in a pile of [!@#%^&^] ash... speaking of which - if there's a dealer smoking: forget it, no custom - it's like a guy I knew back in Leeds who used to run an Alternative Bookshop (i.e. he sold second-hand jazz mags) - I bought a stack of 2000ADs as a young lad and came home with centrefolds full of cig butts. Foul!

 

"EMBRACING CGC"

Obviously, I meant LITERALLY! Every night I come home and hug each of my CGC books. One by one.... I sometimes even kiss my 9.8s - but only if I'm in the mood...

 

 

 

 

 

[goldust40]

 

EMBRACING CGCS? LITERALLY? REALLY? I thought I was the only one. What'll the non-U.K. Forumites think of us now...................... (gotta love those 9.8s, though).

[Ian_Levine]

You asked for opinions on Comic Biz.

I think it's fair to say that if it wasn't for Paul Sassienie, I wouldn't have my collection.

How many other people would go to San Diego, find me all my major keys at well under guide in lower grades, then only charge ten percent markup for all his time and trouble ??

 

The guy is a saint.

 

As for Silveracre, well I've had some great comics off Darryl, but I think his markup has been a LITTLE BIT MORE than ten percent - nuff said !!!!!!!!!

[Durok-migration]

You asked for opinions on Comic Biz.

I think it's fair to say that if it wasn't for Paul Sassienie, I wouldn't have my collection.

How many other people would go to San Diego, find me all my major keys at well under guide in lower grades, then only charge ten percent markup for all his time and trouble ??

 

The guy is a saint.

 

As for Silveracre, well I've had some great comics off Darryl, but I think his markup has been a LITTLE BIT MORE than ten percent - nuff said !!!!!!!!!

 

Darryl at SilverAcre is a joke ! He's a typical reason why U.K. shows and U.K. dealers have such a bad name.

 

He is always a whole grade out in his grading, has a huge inventory of low grade garbage, but then buys high grade slabbed books from Ebay and tries to sell them on at shows for 300% profit. He obviously thinks his buyers are total insufficiently_thoughtful_persons, incapable of accessing a computer and checking what items Ebay I.D. SilverAcre.com just purchased.

 

Speaking of which, he also seems to have a licence to illegally charge 4% Paypal fees for all his auctions.

 

Silver Acre

 

His PowerSeller status obviously makes him immune to Ebay laws that everyone else has to abide by.

 

 

 

[Durok-migration]

I meet silveracre , the biggest dealer in Europe (he often buy books on Ebay US and sell them on his site at insane price).

 

 

Every other dealer is smiling for the camera, but look at this shifty looking weasel. He must have thought Osborn-France was about to steal his New Mutants #46 in F+. Imagine Chuck were English, had never discovered a single nice comic collection, but still wrote his Tales From The Database - that would be Darryl from Silver Acre !!!

[blowout]

Great debate guys, its good to hear about markets other than the US once in a while.

 

I have a question aimed at anyone who is a regular at UK cons. Do they all just have the same collection of dealers selling at each and every show? Or do you see collectors selling off their wares once in a while?

[comicmankev]

Actually, I will completely change my views on this one (just like our PM ). UK dealers are not overpriced. When thinking of most major US dealers, ie MH, Metro, comiclink, Harley, Ideal etc etc. ALL dealers advertised prices are obviously FAR higher than you can get on the internet! They have more overheads than someone working out of a bedroom or garage and not paying any tax like most on Ebay.

 

I'd now like to rectify my words on this, and apologies to all UK dealers!

 

But all other comments stand

 

There is still a lot to be done in the UK for the industry, and it DOES need updating!

 

As for smoking, I used to for years, and know what it's like to NEED one! But I must say, now I've given up and wonder why I ever did. I also think it is the most horrible looking, dangerous habit in the world. And yes, theres still plenty that smoke, but more and more don't, and their views seem to be much stronger!

 

And thanks to all the many UK dealers that bought books off of me for pennies yesterday on Ebay! Glad to be of service

 

 

[Ian_Levine]

I see that Darryl Jones seems to have upset quite a few of you

[goldust40]

I can only speak authoritatively about the London shows. There are two (there used to be three, but one promoter went under) - one show is held in a dark and musty community hall in dowdy old Kings Cross, an area just north of the centre of the city that is forever in "development". That show is small and the turnover of dealers there is very slow. It's unusual to see an unfamiliar face behind the tables - after a while a regular attendee would know exactly what to expect, and then some. Read between the lines.

 

The bigger (and better) show - the Royal National, in Russell Square, does have the occasional wild card amidst the established crew. Usually his stock is pounced upon by the aforementioned oldies before the fans are allowed in (unless he's done his homework). This occurrence is infrequent however, although the dealers do vary slightly from show to show. But not all of them are comic dealers - there are quite a few tables that only have heroclix, cards, toys, DVDs etc.

 

You DID see the odd collector selling off his prized collection at these shows, but since the arrival of a globally successful auction website (I forget its' name) that particular scenario has vanished.

 

I suspect that England is too small and densely populated for there to be a show that would rival a small provincial U.S. one for bargains or attic finds. And as for flea markets (or car boot sales, as we refer to them) dream on!!!

[JohnBull]

In Darryl's defence, anybody with that many comics - and let's face it, he has an incredibly large stock - is going to pee a number of people off through jealousy alone.

 

I'd like now to say several things against Darryl, one of which might even use the word ins. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of using my real name as my User ID when I registered, so I guess I'll have to wait until I've been here long enough to have my very own shill account.

[chromium]

I made the mistake of using my real name as my User ID when I registered, so I guess I'll have to wait until I've been here long enough to have my very own shill account.

 

Well...you are what you is.....

[JohnBull]

This is gonna ramble a bit, sorry.

 

Don't fall for this dealer line CMK, it's all a load of bull. Anybody that decides to make a living doing something based around their hobby, is subject to a completely different set of constraints than the rest of us.

 

I play bridge. I love the game and like a number of people, I'd like to make a living out of it somehow. I could do, but the thing is, I'd earn maybe 50% of what I do now if I was lucky. Instead, I choose to do a boring job, dealing with things I don't really like, purely in order to have enough money to enjoy my life away from work.

 

The historic price rises that have followed most comics year after year are garbage. They have been based around a dealer conspired price guide working in a market with very few competitors, most of whom have operated an unspoken cartel. E-bay has shown what a complete crock this has been. If e-bay says that Spiderman 1 is worth a million dollars, then it's worth a million dollars, but equally if it says it's worth a hundred dollars, then get with the plot.

 

You remember those old Overstreet's where you looked up your favourite Silver Age issue and it told you that there were 1200 copies in existence, with maybe 70 in near mint ? How did the guide handle this information - by chalking up copies in Fine condition at 60% of the value of Near Mint copies ! Does this make sense to you ? Historically the very highest grades have been undervalued, but the lower grades have been way overpriced. The free market nowadays is showing this fact up. Sure, if you want a top grade copy of an early Spiderman, you're going to pay through the nose, but how much do you think a low grade reading run is going to set you back ? Peanuts (compared to guide) !

 

The previous pricing situation that existed suited dealers very nicely. They may not have done quite as well on the top end stuff, but so what ? For every 50 books they owned, they probably only had a couple of really top grade copies anyway and if they sold the other 48 for more than their real value in a free market, then what me worry.

 

I've had dealings with people in this country for over 25 years and the stories of shoddy service and downright chicanery I could tell are legion. Unfortunately, as with the reason mentioned in my last post, I feel obliged to bite my tongue when it comes to names. However, with very few exceptions, I think they're all a bunch of schmucks !

 

No, I won't be apologising for this later. I buy comics for a fun hobby and I don't have to watch my myself for fear of insulting someone who I might buy a comic from at some future date. I buy my comics from US dealers on e-bay, who I generally find very professional (no probs with Kev either) and Vault in the UK. I have no desire to deal with the rest of you and if I ever do walk into one of your shops with 2 grand in my backpocket, you won't know who the [!@#%^&^] I am anyway. I don't need bridges so I can tell it how it is.

 

God, that was cathartic.

[NotGpcovesShill-migration]

And another thing.......

[Trimmer_n_more-migration]

SHILL ! ! !