Is it just me, or are the OA prices really strong on the HA today?

[aardvark88]

We are not at the euphoria stage yet. Give the comic market another 2 years when all the hi-rollers who invested in Cgc 9.4 and 9.6 the last 5 years realize that ONE of a kind OA is what they should be investing in.

[tb]

Several of my friends from Europe, who have been life long comics collectors, have gotten into OA big time over the last few years. One of them told me that he is considering selling comics to finance a piece of art - this would have been unheard of until recently. I am sure that it is the internet, and not least Heritage, that is creating new awareness of the medium. It is interesting to observe this interest spread like rings in the water: once the high profile collectors switch from comics to OA others will surely follow. I am sure that this process is in its early stages and that it is far more revolutionary than evolutionary. The interest in US comics has been growing in Europe over the last 10 years and I'd expect the same for OA.

 

Oh, and I collect both comics and OA myself.

[Bronty]

this 'oa' part of the cgc message alone has driven huge interest, I am sure of that. And as you say with the internet its made one of a kind pieces so much more desirable because in the old days you were never going to find that cover; its SO much easier now to find that specific piece and match the right buyer with the seller.

[delekkerste]

I'm glad you brought up "collectors with short attention spans". I've noticed a few of these ADD-type collectors who appear to be in the hobby solely for the thrill of the chase. In short time, they dump their latest shiny acquisition and move on to something else. The unfortunate consequence being that in the meantime, they've driven up the market on whatever art/artist's work they *had* to have. There are many reasons for segments of the hobby to have reached the levels they have; the ADD style of collecting has just been an obvious one to me. Of course, people can collect however they like. But there are consequences for the rest of us.

 

As a corollary to the ADD-type collector impact on prices, I had a long talk with a pretty big collector/dealer at the SDCC about, for lack of a better term, "The ComicArtFans.com Syndrome". Don't get me wrong, I am a supporting CAF member and love the site (for the most part; I do think some of the more blatantly pornographic images should be better segregated).

 

Unfortunately, however, it seems as though CAF has had a similar impact on the OA market as the CGC Registry and Forums has had on slab prices. It seems like a lot of collectors these days get a high from posting nice art on the site and all the adulation that comes with getting hundreds of hits, making the top 10 most viewed lists, getting fawning comments from fellow collectors on both CAF and ComicArt-L, etc. Comic OA is a niche hobby and it doesn't take much to feel like a rock star for a short while - just cash out those savings, structure time payments for the balance, buy some nice art, post it to your CAF gallery with a corresponding link on ComicArt-L, and watch the fanboys go wild!

 

It's like crack, though - once you feel that first high, you just want more and more, which means stretching your budget ever further to keep buying more and more nice art. That's where the self-reinforcing price momentum becomes a nice rationalization - "hey, I can afford to keep stretching because I keep making money on both my existing collection and new purchases". Of course, the more you buy, the faster your cost basis keeps rising and the easier it becomes for a correction to wipe out all of those easy early gains, but, hey, until it stops working, why not keep shelling out $30-$35K for second-tier SA covers, right?

 

Anyway, I wonder how long the ADD-types and the CAF-addicts are going to stick around if/when the laws of gravity, large numbers and common sense finally break the price/momentum fever.

 

Let the commence!

[Nexus]

Great points, Gene. I hadn't thought about it before, but it is highly possible that the existence of CAF has changed the dynamics of OA collecting. There's certainly a parallel, time-wise, between the ascendancy of CAF and the sky-rocketing of values.

 

However, for all the attention whores out there (and I fully admit to being one of them), there are also many true BSDs who don't bother with CAF. And what they spend dwarfs what the rest of us spend.

 

In the end, if/when a correction happens, I can see it affecting the average CAF member but not the BSD. Their motivations for collecting, and what they collect, are very different.

[delekkerste]

Felix,

 

I agree that both the ADD/CAF phenomena are just parts of the overall equation; by no means do I think they explain all, or even most, of what we've seen in the market.

 

As for the BSDs, no doubt some are better insulated than others, though it remains to be seen whether their appetite for buying remains as voracious as it has been. And, to Dave's (dem1138) point in another thread, how much of the strength in the market can be attributed to a few individuals and those who want to emulate them - you know, the "Keeping Up With the Robertses and Mandels Syndrome"? I wonder what would be the impact if even a couple of big players changed their buying patterns or even decided to take some chips off the table - surely even some of the BSDs out there must be questioning some of the recent pricing, even if they can still handily afford to pay? As Tim (tth2) has said, even rich people like to feel like they got a good deal (except for the Russians, who wear overpaying like a badge of honor) .

 

But, I guess this is all just mental masturbation since KK has assured us that we will all be rolling in clover indefinitely, right? Let's all enjoy the euphoria while it lasts, but keep in mind that old saw..."the trend is your friend...until it ends".

 

Please pass the popcorn!

 

Gene

[easyt63]

I for one definately agree that CAF helps boost the comic art market, especially that it makes it so easy to find the art you want. I used to just collect comics. First raw, then slabbed. I started with mid grade then went high. Then i narrowed the focus and just collected high grade spideys. Then i wanted to get Amazing Spider-man 1-20 in 9.2. While im still working that, i got bit by the OA bug and have only bought 1 comic in a year. Heck i sold every CGC comic i have except for 3, those being my ASM 13,14,15 CGC 9.2.

 

Its true, its like a drug, its hard to stop buying. But isnt it the same with comics. I mean whats so different from buying OA than Slabbed comics. Obviously there is a difference if your Richie Rich buying 30K+ art, but for the average joe, i would assume buying graded comics can kill your budget just like OA can. I prefer the OA since I love to draw. If i get an amazing page or cover, it excites me more than any comic would because there is not another one. Its one of a kind. Take this for example:

 

I want the cover art to ASM 541 by Ron Garney so bad, SO BAD, but i will most likely never get it. The owner on CAF most likely will never sell it, and believe me i have contacted that person again and again. So that sucks.

 

Now I also really want a ASM #9 CGC 9.2. I passed on the last one on CLink because i was going nuts on art, but i know there will always be another ASM #9 CGC 9.2 for sale at some point.

 

I think that example is a huge reason why some people have gotten into art. The whole "its one of a kind thing" is definately an incentive for some, while i have to admit, the whole graded comics thing really has lost interest to me a bit since the grading is so subjective, and CGC can really be a bit of a mystery sometimes. With OA, there is no grading, why would there be, there is only one of each piece.

 

So thats my thoughts, i definately think that the more comics and comic related products become more popular, comics and the art will continue to rise in price. Plus like some have stated before, the art is definately so much easier to find online, although some of the art dealers really jack the prices up. I know from my experience, buying straight from the artist if you can is so much better than from a dealer.

 

 

[aardvark88]

I would add, "Buying straight from the inker is so much more affordable than from the artist."

[comicartcom]

I want to bring up a few points

 

#1 real collectors do not care about what the price of anything is except when they buy it. They aren't focused on "investment" because the real investment is a spiritual feeling from owning something you like/want. To go further, any collectible only has a "perception of value". Banks will not grant you a loan based on price guide values of comic books, art, movie posters or Hot Wheels cars. You can't buy a hamburger with an original Jack Kirby page unless the McDonald's manager is a comic collector.

 

So based on that simple fact, collectibles are worthless except at the moment that someone is putting cash in your pocket for that piece of art you have. A portfolio full of art sitting in your closet is the same as a box of kitty litter in the bathroom, except you won't be throwing out the portfolio every week.. even if kitty does pee on it.

 

#2 Collectibles of any kind are as abstract a possession as anything can possibly be. You and I and Eric Roberts see the value of Neal Adams' art for Avengers #93 - though we may all have a different idea of what that value is, but your girlfriend thinks you are totally R E T A R D E D for spending $500 on a comic book and your wife would rather have a new dishwasher.

 

It is really very much the same as 2 art critics looking at a classic painting by Winslow Homer and another by Willem de Kooning

 

 

 

One person sees mashed potatoes when he looks at the de Kooning, but everyone sees the natural imagery of Homer and therein lay the abstract concept in point of view.

 

if you never have any plan to sell what you collect, and you can't get a loan against it, and your girlfriend thinks you need psychological assitance.. what value can that stuff have??

 

Spiritual value is it. It makes you feel good to own it.

 

#3 .. what does investment really mean??

 

that's simple. Investing is the act of laying out money with the expectation of getting a financial appreciation of what you have spent your money on. Chances are for most people the best investments are those that are recognized by a bank: stocks, bonds, real estate and ownership of a thriving business. The only reason that you as a collector put your money into comics, art etc is because like true investors (of the bank type) you believe that your knowledge of comics etc helps you to do a certain amount of prediction of future trends. However unlike Wall Street Investors, you are putting your money into what are referred to as "non-cashable assets". A Wall Street investor can cash out entirely within a single week - for profit or loss - if he chooses, and with almost any bank without even having to search for a viable buyer. There are millions of entities looking to buy what he owns are full market price at the moment he wishes to sell

 

In comics or art, cashing out requires several things, some of which are not neccessarily agreeable.

 

Steve Fishler is happy to buy any collection for a certain % of preceived value, but unless he wants your collection to add to his collection, chances are you can't get anywhere near appraised value because Steve wants to make money on his purchase and if he doesn't have a client waiting for "that item" then he only pays what he feels is right for him to put that material into stock and wait for it to sell.

 

Futhermore, only a few entities are interested in buying your entire collection - or a major factor for large valued collections - have the cash to be able to do so on a moment's notice.

 

These are therefore factors in whether your collection is truly worth that $1,000,000. Some million dollar collections can achieve percentages close to real value, others couldn't get anything resembling real value. If you have a collection of 9.2 and above Mile Highs you are at the former, if you have a collecion of VG Walt Disney comics.. you are way to the low end on a wholesale basis. But in neither case can a collector get 100% or close for his collection and that reduces the investment factor by such a huge margin that by itself it can eliminate any investment you were planning on and if you have to sell your collection today to pay for cancer traetments or to pay off Guido the Bookie after losing your shirt on this weeks NBA games, in all likelihood - you are screwed. Not so with accepted bank-able investments.

 

#4 there is also another factor.. In comics, everyone likes to price to the "highest denominator". Eric Roberts may be able to spend $175,000 for 2 comic covers because he has oodles of cash and if the $175k gets burned instead - well let's say it's the same as buying a pack of chewing gum to him. But to a guy making $35,000 a year even spending $5000 on something can be a life changing event if he loses his money, but due to the Avengers 93 cover - every Adams cover for sale was increased - regardless of whether Eric wants any of the other covers.

 

This is where movie posters diverge from comics in values. At the Heritage poster auctions the past 2 years, one dealer has bought a majority of the items in these auctions for a Eric Roberts similar. Many of the items were bought at prices 2x, 3x, 4x and even 10x real value to fill out a collection for this person to whom throwing away 20 or 30 mil means nothing. However almost immediately as same items were auctioned, the prices came right back to reality. So that This Gun For Hire poster that Heritage sold for $47,800 was immediately followed up by 2 subsequent auction sales for $26,000 and by Heritage 7 months later for $22,705 and during the interim, no one felt that poster was worth $47,000. This is entirely unlike comics & comic art

 

The Heritage sales of the 1958 Prince Valiant sunday pages at $19k, $21k and $33k will send up all Prince Valiants now because comic collectors all point to the top prices and not to reality of market. The real prices of those 3 pages should be $6k, $6k and $10k, but 2 players with un-Godly bankrolls changed the whole market because comics is measured by the top price, not the entire market.

 

 

#5 finally there is one thing that must be noted.. When Eric Roberts stops buying or when 2 of the 5 people who pay those prices stop, the market goes into a free-fall because now the only competitors don't have to fight with the top contenders.

 

and let us not forget the housing market.. What's going on in comics is no different.. Eventually the generational change-out will end the market and while ever higher prices are being paid for some things, the comic market in total items, total readership, total publication numbers etc is decreasing because unlike when I was 11 years old and all my frineds loved comics.. kids today are for more interested in X-box games, internet based fun and material things like giant TVs, iPods, and the like and that is where they spend their money.

 

Some things will always be collected.. But like the pulp magazine hobby.. comics have a limited shelf life at this point. It may be 5 years, 10, 20 or whatever.. But at some point... poof!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mephisto]

 

I want the cover art to ASM 541 by Ron Garney so bad, SO BAD, but i will most likely never get it. The owner on CAF most likely will never sell it, and believe me i have contacted that person again and again. So that sucks.

 

 

 

 

Just buy some other ASM covers and trade for it.

[easyt63]

Yea i wish, the guy already has everything Spider-man. there is nothing he would trade that for.

[Mister Trent]

 

 

One person sees mashed potatoes when he looks at the de Kooning.

 

 

Looks like Drek to me.

 

One man's Mashed Potatoes is another man's Drek.

[comicartcom]

 

 

One person sees mashed potatoes when he looks at the de Kooning.

 

 

Looks like Drek to me.

 

One man's Mashed Ptatoes is another man's Drek.

 

 

yep.. and to your wife, girlfriend, children, mother, sister, or whatever.. comic art looks like total drek..

[Mister Trent]

 

 

One person sees mashed potatoes when he looks at the de Kooning.

 

 

Looks like Drek to me.

 

One man's Mashed Ptatoes is another man's Drek.

 

 

yep.. and to your wife, girlfriend, children, mother, sister, or whatever.. comic art looks like total drek..

 

Actually, no . . . to my wife and daughter, comic art looks like bags of $$$s.

 

Some years back, I sold the last of my EC story art (along with some UK art) to an American collector working in London. Over the course of a year, he spent a very large amount of money buying art from me. The sale/s enabled me to pay off my mortgage, get married and have an expensive holiday/honeymoon.

 

My wife now takes an active interest in high-end sales of comic art (that compare to items I own).

 

Drek just doesn't figure in her vocabulary . . .

[Mister Trent]

 

 

One person sees mashed potatoes when he looks at the de Kooning.

 

 

Looks like Drek to me.

 

One man's Mashed Ptatoes is another man's Drek.

 

 

yep.. and to your wife, girlfriend, children, mother, sister, or whatever.. comic art looks like total drek..

 

Actually, no . . . to my wife and daughter, comic art looks like bags of $$$s.

 

Some years back, I sold the last of my EC story art (along with some UK art) to an American collector working in London. Over the course of a year, he spent a very large amount of money buying art from me. The sale/s enabled me to pay off my mortgage, get married and have an expensive holiday/honeymoon.

 

My wife now takes an active interest in high-end sales of comic art (that compare to items I own).

 

Drek just doesn't figure in her vocabulary . . .

 

As an afterthought . . .

 

You know, I really couldn't give a if - some years from now - the falls out of the OA market.

 

I collected this stuff when few had any interest in buying and prices were readily affordable. I collected because I loved poring over the art and admiring the skill and craftsmanship of the artist/s. "Investment" was never a word that figured into the equation.

 

I love what I collect now . . . the only difference being that prices have skyrocketed to insane heights.

 

If the OA market crashes and my collection no longer holds any real value . . . I'll continue to love it.

 

Only difference being, I won't have any need to sell anything . . . and I could then go back to affording to buy new additions.

 

Some so-called 'collectors' are in this hobby for the wrong reason.

 

The only real thing that's changed with me is my "Taste".

 

I really couldn't give a s.h.i.t. what outsiders think of my collecting interests . . . some people have hobbies like, Train-Spotting, Stamp Collecting, Coin-collecting or Re-enactment (where they dress-up as soldiers for the day and re-construct historic battles). Hobbies like that seem weird to me, but each to his own . . .

[comicartcom]

well you hit on one aspect of what my post was saying.. if you collect for the money, it is the wrong reason

 

and I could also care less what an outsider thinks, but that wasn't the point of my post anyway...

[Mister Trent]

and I could also care less what an outsider thinks, but that wasn't the point of my post anyway...

 

Never said it was . . . discussions like this can act as a springboard to other thoughts or considerations.

[comicartcom]

 Originally Posted By: comicartcom

and I could also care less what an outsider thinks, but that wasn't the point of my post anyway...

 

Never said it was . . . discussions like can act as a springboard to other thoughts or considerations.

spring: Boards:

[Sharkey]

If the OA market crashes and my collection no longer holds any real value . . . I'll continue to love it.

 

I think this is a very important point. The whole "buy what you love" idiom.

 

I'd also like to make a point about collecting OA vs collecting comics. This was alluded to earlier by others posts.

 

Although I agree with Gene and Felix's comments about "ADD" collectors, I don't see the bottom dropping out of the OA market for a long time, if at all. Why? Because of what tb said about his comic collecting buddies getting into OA. I agree that there is still a lot of iceberg under the water in terms of potential OA collectors.

 

Collectors collect for a number of reasons, but often it's either a completionist aspect or a theme aspect. And they like to be recognized and lauded for finding things that are truly rare (Felix, I'm definitely an attention hound too when it comes to showing off my art -- who isn't?). Well, what's rarer than a one-of-a-kind comic book page of art? OA has so much going for it, and there's no doubt it's becoming more and more popular among collectors. I talk to more and more "comic guys" who are branching out into OA, and many of them either have started or are considering selling their comics to fund art purchases.

 

There are a number of reasons that comic collectors are looking at OA, which include but are not limited to the following:

 

1. Landing a high-grade copy of a particular comic isn't rare or a challenge.

There's too many copies of too many comic books. You can't post a scan of a cool book that hasn't already been shown by 100 other collectors.

 

2. Fears of manipulated comics are buoying the high-grade census and that today's high-est graded copy won't still be the highest tomorrow.

 

3. Financial stability: collectors who are concerned about their investments see OA as a more stable and even faster-appreciating collectible. Most collectors I know, even if they don't want to admit it, keep the value of their collectibles in mind when they make purchases. You rationalize your purchases because "hey, it's going to go up in value!"

 

4. Being able to collect something that's truly one-of-a-kind.

It's been said before, but there are tons of issues of pretty much every comic ever made, with a few exceptions. OA pages are one-and-only.

 

5. You can frame art and hang it on the wall and look at it every day, and other people can look at it and appreciate it too, rather than keep it hidden in a box in a dark closet, possibly encased in plastic so nobody can even touch it.

 

6. The thrill of the hunt.

Let's face it, the internet has ruined the hunt. All you need is money and you can buy a copy of any comic in any grade. Search, point, click, buy. Done. You may never find a certain page of OA, so hunting is fun again! Some of it may not even exist, so the hunt might take a lifetime! THIS is what collecting should be like. Being able to buy every Spider-Man comic from ebay or by walking into a single comic book convention is not exciting. Spending 4 years to track down a specific page to a comic book is exciting. In fact, there are pages I've been searching for that I don't even know if they exist. They could have been thrown away, burned, torn up, lost, or hanging on the wall of a collector in Tokyo or Brussels, but I'm still hoping to locate and buy those pages some day. And not knowing if I will or not makes the hunt even that much more intriguing.

 

OA is just plain different. This is truly the key. If you are the type of collector who wants something truly unique, that nobody else has, that you can post up and get loads of attention and kudos and worship for posting, then OA is for you. If you want to own something that nobody else has, then OA is for you. If you want to be the King of the Collectible, and lord your mind-boggling purchases over the poor masses of wannabees, then OA is for you. If you want a piece of art, that was personally drawn by an artist you admire, OA is for you. If you want something truly unique from a comic book story you fondly remember from childhood, then OA is for you.

 

For all these reasons and many more that I haven't communicated, OA is growing as a collecting focus for comic book collectors (and former comic book collectors).

 

As tb and others pointed out, this is a trend that hasn't even begun to fully manifest. More people will enter the market, many of whom don't bat an eye at dropping hundreds or thousands of dollars on a single comic book; they won't have a problem with paying hundreds or thousands for a truly unique and spectacular piece of art.

 

My verbose

 

[NelsonAI]

One man's drek is another man's treasure.

 

I agree with Rhino's point about "the hunt or quest". Tracking something down is part of the fun of being a collector, regardless of what you collect.

 

Cheers!

N