Not another pressing thread.

[joe_collector]

(even though it was already pressed by Church)

 

OMG, now you're trying to tell us that old Edgar Church sat in his basement, working diligently on his press, massaging and working that heat and moisture with just the right PSI to create perfect NM+ copies?

 

Amazing - where is this documented again?

[NewWorldOrder]

Since CGC's grade is an opinion no matter how much we like them, the grade can be subjective on every book.

 

So in the Doc's question I feel No disclosure is neccessary. If the seller truly feels the book is a 9.4 but CGC determines it a 9.2 then I dont see the problem in cracking the book and selling it as a 9.4 "raw".

 

I am sure that has been done a million times.

 

 

If I sell a raw book at a 9.6 and ask 10 people what grade they think it is and half of them say its a 9.4, do I need to disclose that as well?

 

I mean if your a good grader if really doesnt matter because you wont buy the 9.4 book anyway when you know its a 9.2.

 

 

[FFB]

I thought this was a very interesting question that got lost in one of the pressing threads:

 

- CGC's grade means nothing to me and I don't care what they think. I just buy slabs because the books have been checked for restoration. I buy a CGC 9.2 book, crack it open and after a thorough review, I disagree with the CGC grade and grade it a 9.4.

 

- Can I sell the book as a raw 9.4 without disclosing that CGC graded it 9.2? Do I have a responsibility to the buyer to disclose the CGC grade?

 

Thoughts?

I see nothing wrong with this. CGC's grade is an opinion, which can change from day to day on the same book, just like my own grade given to a book can change from day to day. I once graded a run of about 100 Amazing Spider-Man books and recorded the grades, and then regraded them a few months later to see how my later grades compared. I was pretty accurate, but on about 25% of the books I was one grade off, and on a couple of books I was two grades off. I consider myself to be a tight grader, but I also recognize that no one is perfectly consistent from day to day. If I don't agree with CGC's grade on something, I would have no problem cracking it, selling it raw with big front and back scans, and a return policy if the buyer didn't agree. But I would not feel obligated to tell the buyer that "my" VF/NM 9.0 had been graded VF+ 8.5 by CGC.

[Mr. Zipper]

I see nothing wrong with this. CGC's grade is an opinion, which can change from day to day on the same book, just like my own grade given to a book can change from day to day. I once graded a run of about 100 Amazing Spider-Man books and recorded the grades, and then regraded them a few months later to see how my later grades compared. I was pretty accurate, but on about 25% of the books I was one grade off, and on a couple of books I was two grades off. I consider myself to be a tight grader, but I also recognize that no one is perfectly consistent from day to day. If I don't agree with CGC's grade on something, I would have no problem cracking it, selling it raw with big front and back scans, and a return policy if the buyer didn't agree. But I would not feel obligated to tell the buyer that "my" VF/NM 9.0 had been graded VF+ 8.5 by CGC.

 

I agree with this...

 

However, if I saw a seller that consistantly cracked and graded higher, I might suspect that individual was a serial overgrader and it wasn't necessariliy a case of honestly disagreeing with CGC's grade.

[lizards2]

I thought this was a very interesting question that got lost in one of the pressing threads:

 

- CGC's grade means nothing to me and I don't care what they think. I just buy slabs because the books have been checked for restoration. I buy a CGC 9.2 book, crack it open and after a thorough review, I disagree with the CGC grade and grade it a 9.4.

 

- Can I sell the book as a raw 9.4 without disclosing that CGC graded it 9.2? Do I have a responsibility to the buyer to disclose the CGC grade?

 

Thoughts?

Personally, I would disclose it. I do keep the CGC labels from the books I crack.However, the more I think about it, the more I think this is pretty nuts. Almost every book in my back issue collection came with a grade from the original seller - I don't record those grades, and I disagree with them probably about 80% of the time. (Actually, I probably disagree with CGC grades 80% of the time.) Anyway, when I log issues into my collection, I do so with my grades, not the ones assigned by the sellers. Heck - 3/4 of my back issue collection purchased prior to 1990 were probably purchased from the seller as NM..., and their not..., Anyway, for me as a purchaser, the CGC label doesn't add a whole lot of credibility, just another opinion, and I don't buy CGC slabs or books without photos, so that I can see whether that 9.4 is the one with the frickin' corner crease, or the heavy miswrap. And when I log books into my collection, my opinion is the final one.

[DrWatson]

I am finding all these responses interesting. It seems that disclosure is somewhat situational.

[Monstro]

 

 

I am finding all these responses interesting. It seems that disclosure is somewhat situational.

 

 

that is exactly what bothers me about the whole pressing issue. people are called out all the time for not mentioning this or that about a book, but if no one can detect that something has been done and they can pass it off then why should we bother to disclose.

 

it's not the actual pressing that i mind, just the hypocrisy.

 

 

[DrWatson]

 

 Originally Posted By: DrWatson

I am finding all these responses interesting. It seems that disclosure is somewhat situational.

 

 

that is exactly what bothers me about the whole pressing issue. people are called out all the time for not mentioning this or that about a book, but if no one can detect that something has been done and they can pass it off then why should we bother to disclose.

 

it's not the actual pressing that i mind, just the hypocrisy.

This is not a pressing thread. It is a situational disclosure thread.

[Monstro]

i know, but it all kind of ties together with the issue of what and what should not be disclosed.

 

 

 

[Monstro]

i think

[thirdgreenham]

[Sal]

I thought this was a very interesting question that got lost in one of the pressing threads:

 

- CGC's grade means nothing to me and I don't care what they think. I just buy slabs because the books have been checked for restoration. I buy a CGC 9.2 book, crack it open and after a thorough review, I disagree with the CGC grade and grade it a 9.4.

 

- Can I sell the book as a raw 9.4 without disclosing that CGC graded it 9.2? Do I have a responsibility to the buyer to disclose the CGC grade?

 

Thoughts?

I see nothing wrong with this. CGC's grade is an opinion, which can change from day to day on the same book, just like my own grade given to a book can change from day to day. I once graded a run of about 100 Amazing Spider-Man books and recorded the grades, and then regraded them a few months later to see how my later grades compared. I was pretty accurate, but on about 25% of the books I was one grade off, and on a couple of books I was two grades off. I consider myself to be a tight grader, but I also recognize that no one is perfectly consistent from day to day. If I don't agree with CGC's grade on something, I would have no problem cracking it, selling it raw with big front and back scans, and a return policy if the buyer didn't agree. But I would not feel obligated to tell the buyer that "my" VF/NM 9.0 had been graded VF+ 8.5 by CGC.

I would feel obligated. I would feel obligated to say that I thought CGC under- or over-graded a book that was subsequently cracked out.And Richie - Jesus, man, wtf is it with you and these completely unreasonable hypotheticals? Is there something wrong with the statement "one should disclose all information one knows about a book when selling it?" Is anyone advocating that sellers/dealers should be held responsible for not disclosing work done to a book that they had no prior knowledge of?

[joeypost]

With the excitement over disclosure lately, I was wondering if this should not be disclosed to the potential buyer as well. You know, the person who deserves to know the entire history of a comic that is for sale.

 

To go a little further, would someone if they cracked out a 9.2, sent it in and came back 9.4 without doing anything to the book?

 

I have yet to see someone list a book as an old CGC 9.2 that I re-subbed and it finally got the grade I wanted except for the TOS #39 showcase had here on the boards.

 

Would I alert the buyer. Probably not since CGC's grading does fluctuate and NOTHING was done to the book.

[gaz973]

I am finding all these responses interesting. It seems that disclosure is somewhat situational.

 

Sorry Doc, I completely disagree.

 

Pressing should be disclosed because it is a known fact about the book that some buyers believe to be important.

 

A grade whether from CGC or not, is entirely a matter of opinion and is therefore not a fact. I think that most of us have had experience in the fact that CGC's grading is not always consistent (not a dig at them) and probably most of us have seen a slabbed book that we sincerely disagreed with the grade.

 

I don't think that somebody who sincerely thinks that their book has been unfairly graded should have to disclose that it was slabbed at a lower grade than it should have been, because they might be right.

[thirdgreenham]

Since CGC's grade is an opinion no matter how much we like them, the grade can be subjective on every book.

 

So in the Doc's question I feel No disclosure is neccessary. If the seller truly feels the book is a 9.4 but CGC determines it a 9.2 then I dont see the problem in cracking the book and selling it as a 9.4 "raw".

 

I am sure that has been done a million times.

 

 

If I sell a raw book at a 9.6 and ask 10 people what grade they think it is and half of them say its a 9.4, do I need to disclose that as well?

 

I mean if your a good grader if really doesnt matter because you wont buy the 9.4 book anyway when you know its a 9.2.

 

 

As you've mentioned and others as well, CGC's grade is just an opinion. Keeping that in mind it is the most important opinion to anyone who now uses CGC's grading standards as the standards for grading. I know that when I grade a book, I put the grade on it that I believe would be the same grade that CGC would give it. If for some reason I didn't agree with their grade, I could take it out of the case and give it my grade. As I mentioned earlier, if I were to do this, I would disclose CGC's grade.

 

Andy

[namisgr]

- CGC's grade means nothing to me and I don't care what they think. I just buy slabs because the books have been checked for restoration. I buy a CGC 9.2 book, crack it open and after a thorough review, I disagree with the CGC grade and grade it a 9.4.

 

- Can I sell the book as a raw 9.4 without disclosing that CGC graded it 9.2? Do I have a responsibility to the buyer to disclose the CGC grade?

 

Thoughts?

 

Dealers do this all the time, and without disclosing the CGC grade. Indeed, at shows I have seen dealers receive a batch of books back from the CGC booth and crack some of them out. This is but one of many reasons why, when buying raw books, it is best to check them out live and in person.

 

I don't see why this is a "disclosure issue". If Foolkiller looks over one of my raw books I'm selling on the boards and tells me he thinks it's a VF/NM, and I think it's a NM- and have it listed that way, why on earth would I be ethically obligated to disclose this info? Manipulations like restoration and pressing, yes, someone else's opinion on a grade, no.

 

 

[gaz973]

Since CGC's grade is an opinion no matter how much we like them, the grade can be subjective on every book.

 

So in the Doc's question I feel No disclosure is neccessary. If the seller truly feels the book is a 9.4 but CGC determines it a 9.2 then I dont see the problem in cracking the book and selling it as a 9.4 "raw".

 

I am sure that has been done a million times.

 

 

If I sell a raw book at a 9.6 and ask 10 people what grade they think it is and half of them say its a 9.4, do I need to disclose that as well?

 

I mean if your a good grader if really doesnt matter because you wont buy the 9.4 book anyway when you know its a 9.2.

 

 

As you've mentioned and others as well, CGC's grade is just an opinion. Keeping that in mind it is the most important opinion to anyone who now uses CGC's grading standards as the standards for grading. I know that when I grade a book, I put the grade on it that I believe would be the same grade that CGC would give it. If for some reason I didn't agree with their grade, I could take it out of the case and give it my grade. As I mentioned earlier, if I were to do this, I would disclose CGC's grade.

 

Andy

 

But if CGC's grading standards have varied so much, it is dificult to give a book the grade that you think CGC would give.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

This is touchy, and a good thing to discuss doc. I think it comes down to personal beliefs of disclosure again though.

 

IF cgc graded a book I really felt was 9.4 and it graded 9.2 I would assess what reasons they had to knock it down. After I read the notes I would come to the boards, rant a little bit.. Then I would PM NIK and ask him to submit it for me and enjoy it as a 9.6.......

 

 

In all seriousness, I would disclose. But if I felt that it was a 9.4 it would be sold as such and let the prospective buyer decide for himself.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

- CGC's grade means nothing to me and I don't care what they think. I just buy slabs because the books have been checked for restoration. I buy a CGC 9.2 book, crack it open and after a thorough review, I disagree with the CGC grade and grade it a 9.4.

 

- Can I sell the book as a raw 9.4 without disclosing that CGC graded it 9.2? Do I have a responsibility to the buyer to disclose the CGC grade?

 

Thoughts?

 

Dealers do this all the time, and without disclosing the CGC grade. Indeed, at shows I have seen dealers receive a batch of books back from the CGC booth and crack some of them out. This is but one of many reasons why, when buying raw books, it is best to check them out live and in person.

 

I don't see why this is a "disclosure issue". If Foolkiller looks over one of my raw books I'm selling on the boards and tells me he thinks it's a VF/NM, and I think it's a NM- and have it listed that way, why on earth would I be ethically obligated to disclose this info? Manipulations like restoration and pressing, yes, someone else's opinion on a grade, no.

 

 

Foolkiller is just trying to low-ball you....

 

Kidding Brian is an awesome guy, and is really great with HG grading.

[namisgr]

I've tried telling CGC that the book they just returned to me with the 8.0 label was graded and sold by a very prominent and tight-grading dealer as a VF/NM. They didn't seem to care about my "disclosure"....