Not another pressing thread.

[NewWorldOrder]

Since CGC's grade is an opinion no matter how much we like them, the grade can be subjective on every book.

 

So in the Doc's question I feel No disclosure is neccessary. If the seller truly feels the book is a 9.4 but CGC determines it a 9.2 then I dont see the problem in cracking the book and selling it as a 9.4 "raw".

 

I am sure that has been done a million times.

 

 

If I sell a raw book at a 9.6 and ask 10 people what grade they think it is and half of them say its a 9.4, do I need to disclose that as well?

 

I mean if your a good grader if really doesnt matter because you wont buy the 9.4 book anyway when you know its a 9.2.

 

 

As you've mentioned and others as well, CGC's grade is just an opinion. Keeping that in mind it is the most important opinion to anyone who now uses CGC's grading standards as the standards for grading. I know that when I grade a book, I put the grade on it that I believe would be the same grade that CGC would give it. If for some reason I didn't agree with their grade, I could take it out of the case and give it my grade. As I mentioned earlier, if I were to do this, I would disclose CGC's grade.

 

Andy

 

I see your point, but your also talking to a guy who called CGC on a book and said they graded it to high.

 

 

[GACollectibles]

- CGC's grade means nothing to me and I don't care what they think. I just buy slabs because the books have been checked for restoration. I buy a CGC 9.2 book, crack it open and after a thorough review, I disagree with the CGC grade and grade it a 9.4.

 

- Can I sell the book as a raw 9.4 without disclosing that CGC graded it 9.2? Do I have a responsibility to the buyer to disclose the CGC grade?

 

Thoughts?

 

Dealers do this all the time, and without disclosing the CGC grade. Indeed, at shows I have seen dealers receive a batch of books back from the CGC booth and crack some of them out. This is but one of many reasons why, when buying raw books, it is best to check them out live and in person.

 

I don't see why this is a "disclosure issue". If Foolkiller looks over one of my raw books I'm selling on the boards and tells me he thinks it's a VF/NM, and I think it's a NM- and have it listed that way, why on earth would I be ethically obligated to disclose this info? Manipulations like restoration and pressing, yes, someone else's opinion on a grade, no.

 

 

Once a book is raw again(cracked open slab) the former CGC grade is irrelevent, it is just the opinion of three other people.* The maintainence or potential improving of the book's grade then falls upon the owner, including grading the book for sale. That person is responsible for the grade at that point, that person may agree or disagree with the CGC grade but ultimately is responsible for the represented grade. Disclosing the former CGC grade as long as there was no change in condition of the book would seem sensible, but there is no way to guarentee the book is in the same condition.

 

 

*Note: restoration notes would be relevant

[NewWorldOrder]

[DrWatson]

So, when robojo33 buys a CGC 9.0 and cracks it out and sells it on eBay as a 9.4, then that is okay because in his opinion it is a 9.4? I am getting mixed signals.

 

 

[NewWorldOrder]

So, when robojo33 buys a CGC 9.0 and cracks it out and sells it on eBay as a 9.4, then that is okay because in his opinion it is a 9.4? I am getting mixed signals.

 

 

Again there are so many ways we can take from your example.

 

Example:

 

Doc, I sell you a X-men 101 "Raw" and I grade it at a 9.4, and I cracked it out of the CGC case which it was graded at a 8.0.

 

Now there are two theories here:

 

1) I can't grade and I am just ignorant to the fact that I think the book is truly a 9.4.

2) A typical eBay scammer who is using ignorance of the buyer to make more money on an incorrect grading scale.

 

 

Sometimes grading is not subjective its objective with a Evil, money making purpose.

 

 

...but on a 9.2/9.4 example its really a close call wether or not that holds true.

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

So, when robojo33 buys a CGC 9.0 and cracks it out and sells it on eBay as a 9.4, then that is okay because in his opinion it is a 9.4? I am getting mixed signals.

 

 

Again there are so many ways we can take from your example.

 

Example:

 

Doc, I sell you a X-men 101 "Raw" and I grade it at a 9.4, and I cracked it out of the CGC case which it was graded at a 8.0.

 

Now there are two theories here:

 

1) I can't grade and I am just ignorant to the fact that I think the book is truly a 9.4.

2) A typical eBay scammer who is using ignorance of the buyer to make more money on an incorrect grading scale.

 

 

Sometimes grading is not subjective its objective with a Evil, money making purpose.

 

 

...but on a 9.2/9.4 example its really a close call wether or not that holds true.

 

Pick number 1

[namisgr]

So, when robojo33 buys a CGC 9.0 and cracks it out and sells it on eBay as a 9.4, then that is okay because in his opinion it is a 9.4? I am getting mixed signals.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by "OK" there, Doc. Someone's grade is someone's grade. In your hypothetical, it's very likely not OK because the seller historically misrepresents the grades (as well as scans) of his books.

 

Buy raw books either from graders you trust, or from times when you grade the books yourself.

[DrWatson]

It doesn't really matter. I am in the minority. I would much rather have the seller tell me a book was a previously graded an 8.X or 9.X and they did not agree with the grade and cracked it out than to tell me a book had been pressed. However, I guess I can remedy that situation myself and ask if the book has ever been professionally grade when I purchase a raw book.

[namisgr]

It doesn't really matter. I am in the minority. I would much rather have the seller tell me a book was a previously graded an 8.X or 9.X and they did not agree with the grade and cracked it out than to tell me a book had been pressed. However, I guess I can remedy that situation myself and ask if the book has ever been professionally grade when I purchase a raw book.

 

What is your approach at a show, when you can hold, see, smell and grade the book yourself? In this case, you've got your own and the seller's opinion both - why does CGC's opinion matter a whit in this case? Is it really all about the label for you, as your post seems to imply?

[Old Fashion PB and J]

It doesn't really matter. I am in the minority. I would much rather have the seller tell me a book was a previously graded an 8.X or 9.X and they did not agree with the grade and cracked it out than to tell me a book had been pressed. However, I guess I can remedy that situation myself and ask if the book has ever been professionally grade when I purchase a raw book.

 

Im in the minority with you doc. Maybe we should start a gang like the latin kings or something.

 

But I agree, this whole disclosure thing is getting annoying. I should just print up a questionaire for books, and hand it to sellers with the book I would like to buy. Because there are a few things that sellers feel shouldnt be disclosed unless asked about...

[gaz973]

So, when robojo33 buys a CGC 9.0 and cracks it out and sells it on eBay as a 9.4, then that is okay because in his opinion it is a 9.4? I am getting mixed signals.

 

 

It depends on if he honestly thinks it's a 9.4 or not. Obviously there are always scammers and dishonest people out there who will do this sort of thing regularly. They wouldn't disclose pressing, former CGC grades or having wiped their arse on the book so discussing whether they should disclose is kinda moot.

 

If however we are talking about people who are on the level and truly believe a book to be higher graded than CGC have given it credit for then it's another matter.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

It doesn't really matter. I am in the minority. I would much rather have the seller tell me a book was a previously graded an 8.X or 9.X and they did not agree with the grade and cracked it out than to tell me a book had been pressed. However, I guess I can remedy that situation myself and ask if the book has ever been professionally grade when I purchase a raw book.

 

What is your approach at a show, when you can hold, see, smell and grade the book yourself? In this case, you've got your own and the seller's opinion both - why does CGC's opinion matter a whit in this case?

 

Offer the seller next to nothing, possibly state it is restored, and argue about the grade in front of other customers.

 

I am joking BTW.

[NewWorldOrder]

It doesn't really matter. I am in the minority. I would much rather have the seller tell me a book was a previously graded an 8.X or 9.X and they did not agree with the grade and cracked it out than to tell me a book had been pressed. However, I guess I can remedy that situation myself and ask if the book has ever been professionally grade when I purchase a raw book.

 

Im in the minority with you doc. Maybe we should start a gang like the latin kings or something.

 

But I agree, this whole disclosure thing is getting annoying. I should just print up a questionaire for books, and hand it to sellers with the book I would like to buy. Because there are a few things that sellers feel shouldnt be disclosed unless asked about...

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Stop acting like you are thinking. I just saw a bunch of byrne 9.6's on ebay, well centered with white pages. BIN for $30.00 Better hurry over there..

 

[GACollectibles]

So, when robojo33 buys a CGC 9.0 and cracks it out and sells it on eBay as a 9.4, then that is okay because in his opinion it is a 9.4? I am getting mixed signals.

 

 

 

Did he crack it out with the intention of selling at a higher grade? Did he disagree with CGC's opnion of the grade? I can't answer these questions based on your scenario nor will I speculate his intentions, but in either case he would be responsible, as the seller, for the represented grade.

 

Sellers establish a pattern of behavior that allows a buyer to evaluate whether they agree/disagree with the general grading guidelines a seller uses, and in some cases whether they are exploiting buyers by misrepresenting items. It then becomes the buyer's choice whether to deal with the seller or not. Some sellers can adapt their grading to conform with current acceptable marketplace parameters(specifics, of course, varying from seller to seller).

 

OT: Dealing with sellers that buyers were not familiar with and collector-to-collector sales is the benefit(along with resto detection) I think that CGC provides- while certainly just another usually (3) person's opinion- and that it gave the buyer a reasonable expectation of what to expect grade-wise, though specific grade may vary depending on criteria, most using Overstreet guidelines, CGC using, well, that's a different topic.

 

 

[DrWatson]

It doesn't really matter. I am in the minority. I would much rather have the seller tell me a book was a previously graded an 8.X or 9.X and they did not agree with the grade and cracked it out than to tell me a book had been pressed. However, I guess I can remedy that situation myself and ask if the book has ever been professionally grade when I purchase a raw book.

 

What is your approach at a show, when you can hold, see, smell and grade the book yourself? In this case, you've got your own and the seller's opinion both - why does CGC's opinion matter a whit in this case? Is it really all about the label for you, as your post seems to imply?

No, it's about knowledge that one person holds and is not imparting to the other. Withholding knowledge that could impact a purchase is withholding knowledge. If you and I are both looking at a book and I say it's a 9.2 and you say it's a 9.4, then that's fine. If you are saying it's a 9.4 and know that CGC graded it a 9.2, then that's when I have an issue.

[MrBedrock]

And Richie - Jesus, man, wtf is it with you and these completely unreasonable hypotheticals? Is there something wrong with the statement "one should disclose all information one knows about a book when selling it?" Is anyone advocating that sellers/dealers should be held responsible for not disclosing work done to a book that they had no prior knowledge of?

I want to say "Lighten up Sal", but I respect you too much. So in answer to your question...most of the stuff that is posted in these discussions is in absolute terms. I have been doing this funnybook dealing thing for a long while. There ain't no absolutes!

So think about the hypotheticals. They really aren't that unreasonable.

And most of them aren't even hypothetical.

[NewWorldOrder]

Stop acting like you are thinking. I just saw a bunch of byrne 9.6's on ebay, well centered with white pages. BIN for $30.00 Better hurry over there..

 

 

Such a liar!

[GACollectibles]

It doesn't really matter. I am in the minority. I would much rather have the seller tell me a book was a previously graded an 8.X or 9.X and they did not agree with the grade and cracked it out than to tell me a book had been pressed. However, I guess I can remedy that situation myself and ask if the book has ever been professionally grade when I purchase a raw book.

 

What is your approach at a show, when you can hold, see, smell and grade the book yourself? In this case, you've got your own and the seller's opinion both - why does CGC's opinion matter a whit in this case? Is it really all about the label for you, as your post seems to imply?

 

 

CGC's opinion matters(and it makes them a successful business) because buyers are either uncomfortable or uncapable of making the grading decsion and need to be told what the grade is.

 

Much like the government/laws exists because a percentage of the masses can't function in a rational manner left to their own accord. That doesn't mean the system is perfect, but it does serve a function(see opinion of CGC's function in my previous post)

[namisgr]

Is it really all about the label for you, as your post seems to imply?

No, it's about knowledge that one person holds and is not imparting to the other.

 

If you are saying it's a 9.4 and know that CGC graded it a 9.2, then that's when I have an issue.

 

These two statements seem contradictory, as the second suggests that it is indeed all about the CGC label for you. After all, you are saying that if CGC graded a book, you need to know what they graded it. Or, instead, are you saying that I need to tell you what Foolkiller thought of the books I'm selling that you're considering buying?

 

When buying raw books, I much prefer to depend on my own grading opinion over that of CGC. Excluding their opinion on restoration, of course. For one thing, I know what I like in my comics better than CGC does. For another, I learned early on in the third party grading game that CGC grading has a fair amount of, shall we say, variance - books graded at different times can receive grades from CGC that differ by two grading units in the complete absence of any manipulation.