Authenticity of signature series books

[Comic Book Guy]

I have been collecting comics for a few years and in the past year or so I have really grown to love Signature Series books but I have a concern about the authenticity of them.

It seems that the whole point of cgc doing a "ss" was so that buyers and sellers could have a way to know exactly what they are getting and that it is 100% authentic. To me what this means is that I should no longer have to just trust that it is a real signature.

 

Well most witnesses don't work for cgc and they are usually witnessing there own books being signed. So cgc says ok "collector A" you meet the criteria so you can be a witness. Now "collector A" can go around on his own behalf and collect signatures, unwitnessed by anyone except him and submit them to cgc for ss.

So then it's back to the honor system and we really are just having to trust that the witness is being honest. Isn't that the whole flaw in autograph collecting and isn't that why cgc has a signature series?? so that you don't have to just trust or believe that the signature is 100% authentic.

Senior grader Paul Litch has called the cgc ss system "fool proof".

But if a witness is submitting books that only he saw signed then we are just taking his word for it because cgc says this guy is reputable. There have been plenty of instences where reputable companies or people in the autograph industry have turned out to be otherwise. There are just to many opprotunitys for someone who is unwitnessed and only vouched for to do something dishonest.

In my opinion there should always be an independent cgc witness present when you get a book signed for the cgc ss. This means I should have a witness present if I am in line to get books signed by Stan Lee and want them to be signature series. To me this should also mean that if "witness A" has books to be signed for ss that he should have an independent cgc witness present as well. This way any and all books have been independently witnessed by a cgc rep and are guaranteed to be authentic. Otherwise we are just trusting "witness A". While I believe in a company like cgc 100%, when they start passing that trust onto 3rd parties and even 4th parties when they let people sign up as witnesses on different accounts I start to worry and once you are worried about the aunthenticty of a signature then it really becomes a problem.

My point in all this is that unless a signature has been INDEPENDTLY witnessed by a cgc rep or witness there is NO way to say that it is 100% authentic. It is not independent if you are witnessing your own books. Clearing someone as a witness and letting them obtain and submit autographs on there own behalf based souly on there word does not breed confidence nor authenticity...

Again I am a fairly new collector so I would love to hear your take on it. All this being said I am a fan of CGC and at this point only buy CGC books but I wanted to share this concern to see if it has been dealt with or brought up in the past. Thanks!!

 

[DocGo]

Well most witnesses don't work for cgc and they are usually witnessing there own books being signed. So cgc says ok "collector A" you meet the criteria so you can be a witness. Now "collector A" can go around on his own behalf and collect signatures, unwitnessed by anyone except him and submit them to cgc for ss.

 

The signings have to be approved by CGC before they take place.

[Comic Book Guy]

Well most witnesses don't work for cgc and they are usually witnessing there own books being signed. So cgc says ok "collector A" you meet the criteria so you can be a witness. Now "collector A" can go around on his own behalf and collect signatures, unwitnessed by anyone except him and submit them to cgc for ss.

 

The signings have to be approved by CGC before they take place.

 

So when Chandler got Hugh Jackman at SDCC was it an approved signing by cgc?? From his story here on the board it sure didn't sound like it..(not questioning chandler at all just giving an example)

I have seen witnesses at comic con jump in line and have books signed by the creator and it did not appear to be scheduled or approved and that doesn't really address my concern.

 

How do we know cgc ss books are 100% authentic if most of the time the only witness present is the one having them signed. Are we asked just to trust that witness. Doesn't that leave the door open to the possibility of some funny business...Any funny business..It seems to me the only way to guarantee the authenticity is to have all books witnessed by someone who is independent or doesn't have a stake in it..

[Kevin Boyd]

The MAJORITY of comic books signed for Signature Series submissions take place at comic book conventions where CGC staff are present along with approved Signature Series Witnesses. CGC is there verifying that the guests are present, supervising the Witnesses, and reviewing the books as they are submitted.

 

Also, the approved Witnesses are in line in and around other Witnesses and CGC staff. In essence, it is one big group, a group in which everyone involved is giving everyone else the "hairy eyeball". Anything out of the ordinary would be caught and reported pretty quickly because everyone involved has a vested interest in keeping the system honest.

 

Anyone that has been approved by CGC to obtain autographs outside of the convention environment has to be someone that CGC trusts implicitly, and they must follow some very strict reporting rules.

[Kevin Boyd]

So when Chandler got Hugh Jackman at SDCC was it an approved signing by cgc?? From his story here on the board it sure didn't sound like it..(not questioning chandler just giving an example)

I have seen witnesses at comic con jump in line and have books signed by the creator and it did not appear to be scheduled or approved and that doesn't really address my concern.

 

Actually, Hugh Jackman was slated to appear at the SDCC to promote his Wolverine movie. Anyone present at a convention on the guest list is considered "fair game". And Chandler wasn't alone at the time, other people saw it happen and confirmed it, even though Chandler's word would not have been turned down if he had been alone. I was present when a breathless Chandler ran to his box to get a comic for Hugh to sign, and I was present when he returned with the autograph and told me what happened. Hugh Jackman was at the show, was seen by other people at the show, and Chandler has signed a legal document that should prevent him from lying about the authenticity of autographs.

 

The Witnesses can try to obtain their autographs at any time during a show --- they don't come by the CGC booth and say --- "I'm going to see Jim Lee now, is that approved?" (although they often do see if there are additional customer books they can bring to the signing when they do).

 

 

[Comic Book Guy]

The MAJORITY of comic books signed for Signature Series submissions take place at comic book conventions where CGC staff are present along with approved Signature Series Witnesses. CGC is there verifying that the guests are present, supervising the Witnesses, and reviewing the books as they are submitted.

 

Also, the approved Witnesses are in line in and around other Witnesses and CGC staff. In essence, it is one big group, a group in which everyone involved is giving everyone else the "hairy eyeball". Anything out of the ordinary would be caught and reported pretty quickly because everyone involved has a vested interest in keeping the system honest.

 

Anyone that has been approved by CGC to obtain autographs outside of the convention environment has to be someone that CGC trusts implicitly, and they must follow some very strict reporting rules.

 

Thanks Kevin, I am unfamiliar with the "strict reporting rules" and am just sharing some of the thoughts I have had as a new collector...

[Kevin Boyd]

I understand that you have doubts about the process. You want to call attention to those doubts and see if you are not alone.

[Comic Book Guy]

So when Chandler got Hugh Jackman at SDCC was it an approved signing by cgc?? From his story here on the board it sure didn't sound like it..(not questioning chandler just giving an example)

I have seen witnesses at comic con jump in line and have books signed by the creator and it did not appear to be scheduled or approved and that doesn't really address my concern.

 

Actually, Hugh Jackman was slated to appear at the SDCC to promote his Wolverine movie. Anyone present at a convention on the guest list is considered "fair game". And Chandler wasn't alone at the time, other people saw it happen and confirmed it, even though Chandler's word would not have been turned down if he had been alone. I was present when a breathless Chandler ran to his box to get a comic for Hugh to sign, and I was present when he returned with the autograph and told me what happened. Hugh Jackman was at the show, was seen by other people at the show, and Chandler has signed a legal document that should prevent him from lying about the authenticity of autographs.

 

The Witnesses can try to obtain their autographs at any time during a show --- they don't come by the CGC booth and say --- "I'm going to see Jim Lee now, is that approved?" (although they often do see if there are additional customer books they can bring to the signing when they do).

 

 

That sort of speaks to my point..Not with Chandler but in general...It seems to be based on trust..Another example is the last Frank & Sons signing where when reading the thread.. http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2402948&fpart=3 It sounds like Desert Wind Comics didnt get all the books signed and later they say the books are at Stans office being signed..Is there a witness at his office..Again it didnt sound like it as they say that "They just got the call that they are all done"

Again I am not suggesting anything about anyone just addressing an overall concern as a collector..

[Kevin Boyd]

All I can do is confirm that the process is built on trust... and legal contracts.

 

CGC has to trust a Witness is not going to forge or lie about the authenticity of the autographs on the books that are submitted. Every Witness has to sign a legal document "The Witness Agreement" and violation of that would have repurcussions - the biggest one is economic - it would mean the swift conclusion of that agreement and an end to their ability to submit books under the Signature Series label.

 

I have to supervise the Witnesses at shows. I also give them books to get signed. I watch them on the floor, as do CGC employees. If we had any doubts their agreement would end and the books would be turned away or Qualified.

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

Jim McLauchlin of the Hero Initiative is an authorized CGC Signature Series Witness and is present for SS signings at Stan's Beverly Hills office as he sees Stan often and works nearby.

[Comic Book Guy]

Jim McLauchlin of the Hero Initiative is an authorized CGC Signature Series Witness and is present for SS signings at Stan's office as he sees Stan often and works nearby.

 

Awesome, It sounds like there is a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on as far as regulating and such. I suppose there is no need for the general public to know all this info but it sure does help build confidence in the system

[Kevin Boyd]

It would be nice to have every little detail available to assuage any doubts, but as you can understand, it's just not always possible to do so. Paul and I work very hard to ensure that things are coordinated behind the scenes and if anyone has doubts about the authenticity of any autographs they should contact us asap.

[Pirate]

I have been collecting comics for a few years and in the past year or so I have really grown to love Signature Series books but I have a concern about the authenticity of them.

It seems that the whole point of cgc doing a "ss" was so that buyers and sellers could have a way to know exactly what they are getting and that it is 100% authentic. To me what this means is that I should no longer have to just trust that it is a real signature.

 

Well most witnesses don't work for cgc and they are usually witnessing there own books being signed. So cgc says ok "collector A" you meet the criteria so you can be a witness. Now "collector A" can go around on his own behalf and collect signatures, unwitnessed by anyone except him and submit them to cgc for ss.

So then it's back to the honor system and we really are just having to trust that the witness is being honest. Isn't that the whole flaw in autograph collecting and isn't that why cgc has a signature series?? so that you don't have to just trust or believe that the signature is 100% authentic.

Senior grader Paul Litch has called the cgc ss system "fool proof".

But if a witness is submitting books that only he saw signed then we are just taking his word for it because cgc says this guy is reputable. There have been plenty of instences where reputable companies or people in the autograph industry have turned out to be otherwise. There are just to many opprotunitys for someone who is unwitnessed and only vouched for to do something dishonest.

In my opinion there should always be an independent cgc witness present when you get a book signed for the cgc ss. This means I should have a witness present if I am in line to get books signed by Stan Lee and want them to be signature series. To me this should also mean that if "witness A" has books to be signed for ss that he should have an independent cgc witness present as well. This way any and all books have been independently witnessed by a cgc rep and are guaranteed to be authentic. Otherwise we are just trusting "witness A". While I believe in a company like cgc 100%, when they start passing that trust onto 3rd parties and even 4th parties when they let people sign up as witnesses on different accounts I start to worry and once you are worried about the aunthenticty of a signature then it really becomes a problem.

My point in all this is that unless a signature has been INDEPENDTLY witnessed by a cgc rep or witness there is NO way to say that it is 100% authentic. It is not independent if you are witnessing your own books. Clearing someone as a witness and letting them obtain and submit autographs on there own behalf based souly on there word does not breed confidence nor authenticity...

Again I am a fairly new collector so I would love to hear your take on it. All this being said I am a fan of CGC and at this point only buy CGC books but I wanted to share this concern to see if it has been dealt with or brought up in the past. Thanks!!

 

Thanks for calling into question my honesty and integrity!

[Comic Book Guy]

Thanks for calling into question my honesty and integrity!

 

 

Well YOU were the one I was referring to but whatever.. I kid I kid....Actually I wasn't speaking with anyone in mind..It really was just an overall concern...It just seems to me that there would be no question and the infamous "trust factor" wouldn't really come into play if there was an "independent witness" present when a book is being signed for the prestigious ss label.

I bet that idea makes me popular with the witnesses on the board but thanks for all your hard work anyway.. you guys rock!

[Pirate]

Thanks for calling into question my honesty and integrity!

 

Well YOU were the one I was referring to but whatever.. I kid I kid....Actually I wasn't speaking with anyone in mind..It really was just an overall concern...It just seems to me that there would be no question and the infamous "trust factor" wouldn't really come into play if there was an "independent witness" present when a book is being signed for the prestigious ss label.

I bet that idea makes me popular with the witnesses on the board but thanks for all your hard work anyway.. you guys rock!

 

So who's going to watch the independent witness that's watching the witness who goes through the spanish inquisition to become a witness. I'm all for discussion but questioning whether i'm honest or not rubs me the wrong way. My honesty and integrity is all I have on these boards. I'm a witness, you questioned witnesses, so you were speaking with me in mind. So yea you aren't popular in my book.

[chainnball]

What he said...

[CollectingStanLee]

While I'm relatively new, I have to chime in to support CGC. What they have done is nothing short of brilliant, combining self-evident tamper-proof slabs with witnessed signatures. Yes, the witnesses don't work for CGC directly, but CGC does a great job of filtering out processes that would be harmful to their integrity. Not just anyone can be a witness. I found the witnesses here to be extremely helpful and honest and this really speaks to just how well the whole system is working.

 

What you fail to realize, when questioning Chandler's work with Stan Lee for example, is how hard it is to coordinate a signing with Stan Lee, and you should consider yourself lucky to have a chance to submit your books through Chandler. Otherwise you would have to buy them retail through ebay from someone like me, and believe me, I'm not selling cheap.

 

Witnesses work really hard to coordinate signings and if you follow the threads you can see how dedicated Chandler and the other witnesses are, how they travel to shows, how they do their best to make signature opportunities available to everyone. By the way, I'm not a paid endorser of Chandler, just mentioning him because you brought him up.

 

CGC has rules for witnesses, which are followed very precisely because no one wants to give up witness status. Also, I've never seen any evidence that anyone associated with CGC is interested in diluting the value of their certifications, signature or not. Bottom line is that CGC invented an awesome certification method for both signatures and grades that gives me the confidence to invest considerable money into comic books.

[chainnball]

and what he said too...

[Comic Book Guy]

It sounds like Kev is the only one who understood what I was saying or where I was coming from. My concern was simple, If there is no independent witness at a signing can it really be considered a 100% "full proof" system as far as authenticity.

 

CollectingStanLee really makes the least sense. First I understand you wouldn't sell your Stan books to me for cheap as you've bought some of those very books from me on ebay. 2nd I never had issue with anything Chandler or Sharon Rice have ever done. In fact I've worked with both at different times and both have went out of there way to say the least. Not only that but the effort and time it takes to line a signing up has nothing at all to do with anything in this thread. It is appreciated but does not speak to authenticity. Now the fact that most signings have to be approved by cgc does and is something new that I learned today. As I have always maintained, I am a new collector with questions not accusations.

 

I asked the question because I did not know the answer. I understand what it takes to become a witness due to info on this board but I did not know about contracts between witnesses and cgc for example or what things are in place to insure that cgc has knowledge or control over there product such as approved signings, Now I know.

I also never questioned any witness or the character of them. It was a question about the system in place because I was not familiar with said system. Given that many send high dollar books to witnesses for signing are we not aloud to ask how it works or express a concern. So far most everyone but Kev either didn't read the post in full or just failed to understand.

[CocoRich-migration]

Well my first post. I stood up at the Board Dinner in Chicago, stated my name and said 'But you will never see me posting unless you make me mad'.

 

Well I am not mad so to speak but feel I must post.

 

SilverLurker, I wrote this before your last post. I am now editting it.

I now understand your comments and hope this sleds more light on what witnesses do and that there is indeed a process that we must follow.

 

Chandler and I work so hard at getting signatures for everyone on the board and our other clients. 90% of the books we get signed belong to other people so doesn't that make us independent witnesses? We even get our clients books signed in lieu of our own when there is a limit. Sure we charge a fee but trust me there is no profit in this business. Everyone in the hobby that has met us knows how hard we work and how devoted we are - AS they are too! Every single witness I have ever met gets my respect (even those of you do not like us for whatever reason). How hard the witnesses work does have a bearing on the authenticity of the signatures. If we were not getting real signatures, we would just stay home, drink beer, and buy more Sharpies.

 

We traveled 37,500 miles so far this year getting signatures and I can say I did no siteseeing, no spa treatments, and no shopping (I even missed getting my Betty Bob bobble head in SD) so you can't call these trips vacations. What I have done is stand in line countless hours, walk till I was limping, miss breakfast, lunch, and dinner, stay up to 3:00 am doing paperwork, cut my hands creating signing bags - well you witnesses know - you go through the same routine. Now I am not complaining. I am simply painting a picture so you can better understand what witnesses go through to get your books signed by the talent. We, as well as every witness I know, follow the rules and guidelines set down by CGC. We are in constant communication with Paul at CGC when we do private signings. We take pictures at our signings. Chandler being Chandler is always approaching talent for private signings and he is successfully 30% of the time.

 

I am surprised you questioned the Hugh Jackson signing when Chandler posted a picture on the boards clearly showing Hugh signing the book. Does someone not believe it was Hugh Jackman? He was wearing the very same shirt in his televised interview. Beside, instead of letting me meet Hugh Jackman, Chandler took Joel Elad, another CGC witness, with him to witness the signing so there would be no doubt (that's OK Joel, I don't blame you). And that signing wasn't by chance, Chandler worked two months to get that signing setup and he knew he would only be able to get one book signed.

 

Kevin, Pirate, Chainnball, CollectingStanLee thank you for posting as well. I know your words sled enlightment on the process. And CollectingStanLee you are right about buying off of eBay. I have priced one of your books as a gift for Chandler and I can't afford it!

 

SilverLurker, if you are truely curious and would like to know how it all works come join us in Dallas, Phoenix, New York, Orlando, or any of the 16 or more Comic Cons the witnesses attend and we will let you stand in line with us (that way we can get 3 more books signed!). I will introduce you to the countless number of talents I have come to know. I believe if you see the witesses in action you would feel more comfortable with the process and authenticity of signature series books.

 

Sharon RIce

Professional Place Line Holder for Desert Wind Comics