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What's a twilight copy and a D pedigree?

Started by shadroch,

82 posts in this topic

Timely

Timely

Posted
Posted

I have seen many of those "S" books, especially lately. Almost every one I have seen has been a key issue, like Batman #1 or Superman #1, Captain America #1 etc... I have seen about 15 of them and all were #1's. Are yours also #1's?

 

If they are a pedigree, CGC is not taking it to heart as all of those books in the holders had no pedigree status.

 

Timely

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lou_fine

lou_fine

Posted
Posted

Timely;

 

Thanks for your response!

 

No, they were not the #1 issues. I believe they were Mystery Men #4 and #6. The others were Wonderworld #10 and another earlier classic cover one which I can't remember right now. When I was in San Diego a few years ago, a couple of dealers were offering me over full near-mint guide for the copy which I had in my hand.

 

What were the average condition for the ones which you have seen lately and were they CGC'd or raw?

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Timely

Timely

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All Star #1 8.0

Batman #1 9.0 slight (p)

Superman #1 9.0 slight or mod. (p)

Worlds Best #1 8.0

Captain America #1 8.0

Sub-mariner #1 7.5

 

 

I saw a few more but cannot remember the grades.

 

Timely

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lou_fine

lou_fine

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Hi Timely;

 

Did you see these copies at a convention or were they available in one of the Heritage auctions? It would be interesting to view an example to see if the marking is similar to the books which I have. Too bad I don't have a scanner, otherwise I would be able to post some pics.

 

I believe that my books would be in better condition than an 8.0 grade. Not too sure about the MM #4 though. This one might grade out to a VF+ or possibly VF/NM if I am lucky. Wish I could remember what these books look like since it's been awhile since I've seen them.

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1962

1962

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From what I remember the "Twilight" designation refers to "Twilight Games and Books" out of Syracuse NY I believe. They were the original finders of the collection before Metropolis and Four Color got their hands on them. Actually some of the books are quite nice. In regards to one of my favorite covers Detective #122(First Catwoman) the Twilight copy is the highest CGC copy at 9.0 in the census. I wish I hadn't sold that book a couple of years ago. Oh well.

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PedigreeMan

PedigreeMan

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What do some of you guys think of the green river pedigree ?

 

I want one of the books with the bullet holes in it. Other than that, I couldn't care less ....

 

I'm one of those old school guys who frowns upon designating a Silver Age collection a "pedigree." Fandom and the obsessive collectors it breeds had already come into its own by the 1960s, so the hoarding of books became a much more common occurance than it was during the Golden Age. If we gave every single owner Silver Age collection that has surfaced in the past 20 years its own pedigree designation, it would have watered down the mystique and allure of genuinely provencal collections.

 

But now I'm ranting .... sign-rantpost.gif

 

Alan

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

Posted
Posted
I'm one of those old school guys who frowns upon designating a Silver Age collection a "pedigree."

 

I'm one of those new school guys who thinks that the best Silver Age pedigree collections are better than some of the lower-tier Golden Age pedigree collections, and that if you're gonna weed out Pacific Coast and Curator, I've got quite a list of Golden Age ones you should scratch off the list also.

 

But now I'm also ranting. sign-rantpost.gifsmile.gif

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PedigreeMan

PedigreeMan

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I'm one of those old school guys who frowns upon designating a Silver Age collection a "pedigree."

 

I've got quite a list of Golden Age ones you should scratch off the list also.

 

Oh, I'm in 100% agreement with ya there! Let's start with the Twilight one! smile.gif Then move on to Aurora and Okajima (although Alan Bahr is one heckuva nice guy) and then burn all Lost Valley copies post 1940 because they only get in the way of it being a "true" pedigree .... tongue.gif

 

And can someone please tell me why Allentown got a designation? A few early, high grade 'Tecs doesn't excuse the fact that there were only a 100+ books present! Lousy BSDs .... grin.gif

 

But now I'm ranting even more .... sign-rantpost.gifcool.gif

 

Alan

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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And can someone please tell me why Allentown got a designation? A few early, high grade 'Tecs doesn't excuse the fact that there were only a 100+ books present! Lousy BSDs .... grin.gif

 

What were the grades on the other keys? The Cap #1 is incredibly impressive.

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lou_fine

lou_fine

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And can someone please tell me why Allentown got a designation? A few early, high grade 'Tecs doesn't excuse the fact that there were only a 100+ books present! Lousy BSDs .... grin.gif

 

What were the grades on the other keys? The Cap #1 is incredibly impressive.

 

The Allentown collection is considered to be a pedigree not because of the QUANTITY of books, but because of the QUALITY of the books. By quality, I am talking about the importance of the books found in the collection along with the absolute high condition of the books.

 

The early Allentown Tec's such as #27 and #29 are considered to be the finest copies in existence. This also applies to a lot of the early Fox books also from the late 1930's time period. Most GA collectors consider the Allentown to be somewhere in the Top 5 GA pedigrees. Personally, I think it falls into #3 spot behind the SF and MH's.

 

Bottom-line: sometimes quality is more important than quantity! IMHO

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PedigreeMan

PedigreeMan

Posted
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And can someone please tell me why Allentown got a designation? A few early, high grade 'Tecs doesn't excuse the fact that there were only a 100+ books present! Lousy BSDs .... grin.gif

 

What were the grades on the other keys? The Cap #1 is incredibly impressive.

 

Eh, Cap #1s are a dime a dozen ... wink.gif

 

Metropolis had the raw Allentown Boy Commandos #1 (barely a key) a few years back. They had it accurately graded at a NM+, but I do have to admit with all candor that I was unimpressed with it. The page quality was nowhere near up to snuff with MHs or SFs. And who can forget the "sunburned" 'Tec #38 from Heritage last year?

 

Of course, I'm a stickler for white pages (SALIDAS!) ... and I'm a bit crabby this weekend, so feel free to ignore me. grin.gif

 

Alan

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PedigreeMan

PedigreeMan

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Bottom-line: sometimes quality is more important than quantity! IMHO

 

Yeah, but how many nice copies of key books have turned up over the years in similar sized collections but have never been designated with a pedigree?

 

The Allentown collection got lucky in that it was discovered during a time when there weren't that many pedigree designations out there yet the demand for "labelled books" was on the rise. If it were discovered 5 years ealier, the books would have been absorbed into the marketplace without so much as a peep. If it were five years later, it would be lumped in with all the "unworthy" pedigrees that popped up during the 1990s. Right place, right time type of thing.

 

All that being said, though, I would still like an issue from the pedigree in my collection. smile.gif Like it or not, it's been widely accepted by the collecting community at large so it's status isn't going anywhere!

 

Alan

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Mephisto

Mephisto

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I'm one of those old school guys who frowns upon designating a Silver Age collection a "pedigree."

 

I've got quite a list of Golden Age ones you should scratch off the list also.

 

Oh, I'm in 100% agreement with ya there! Let's start with the Twilight one! smile.gif Then move on to Aurora and Okajima (although Alan Bahr is one heckuva nice guy) and then burn all Lost Valley copies post 1940 because they only get in the way of it being a "true" pedigree .... tongue.gif

 

 

What's the story of the Okajima collection?

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PedigreeMan

PedigreeMan

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Okajima's one of those that people really only know because of aggressive marketing by Alan Bahr and subsequent owners. Because so many books from this collection come up for sale, it's typically one of those that is more noticed. (Unlike the -- say it with me now, folks! -- SALIDA pedigree! Have I mentioned my fondness for this one in the last five minutes? smile.gif )

 

I have yet to see or hear of a major key from the Okajima collection. This, coupled with the fact that 2/3 of the collection was sold without certs (making provenance that much more difficult to track) makes this one really questionable. Again, if it weren't for the amount of churning going on with its books, it probably wouldn't even be on the radar.

 

Alan

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