Staple Rust

[Weird]

I've been lurking for a while (months, I think), but had a question and figured it was as good a time as any to register for the boards.

 

I've got a chance to buy some decent raw Bronze books (VF/NM range) and have received a couple as part of a preliminary deal. The issue I have with them is it seems they are going to be coming with some minor staple rust. If a book is VF/NM without the rust, how much of a factor should it be in determining the final grade and/or price?

 

I included a scan of one of the staples, you can see it is very minor (to the left of the "6") but is very faintly migrating to the paper. The rust on the staple itself is only in this area and the rest of it is clean. When I open the book and inspect the interior, I cannot see any rust. The bottom staple on this particular book appears to be fine.

 

So what should be deducted from the grade for something like this and how do you slow the rust process (other than dry storage conditions)? Thanks for any input.

 

 

 

[garthgantu]

Welcome to the boards! I'm not sure how CGC deducts for staple rust... and don't even know if that really matters to you..? Are you planning to keep these for the long haul? Or flip them in a year? Many things would factor into the decision to buy these, at least from my standpoint. Personally I steer clear of books with rust, and for a Bronze Age book, that a fairly nasty-looking staple.

 

To me, an otherwise VF/NM book with staples like the one shown would net out at about FN, maybe FN+. And unless someone on these boards knows a trick for removing rust in a "non-restoration"-type of way, the books are only going to go down in grade as time passes...

 

If you're getting these for a fraction of guide, and/or for collecting (with little to no thought about them appreciating in value over time), then maybe...otherwise I'd shy away from such books.

[Weird]

I guess that wasn't the greatest scan. Basically the rust it right at the "6" and that's it. The rest of the staple is clean and just appears dark due to the scan.

 

The books will go into my collection (this one already is) and hopefully not go anywhere soon. Any idea on how quickly rust will spread into paper under normal conditions? As in, is this something I should worry about or is serious damage far on down the line?

 

 

 

[ninanina]

I bought an Atom 2 on ebay a couple years ago and didn't even notice the rust on the staples. About 6 months later, I looked at the book and because of the rust on the staple the cover separated from the rest of the book. So, there is a very real danger of the rust migrating to the paper. Then you'll be sorry you bought them. I know I was. This book was a F+ when I bought it and it's substantially worse now. One of the worst ebay purchases I ever did.

[Rip]

Depending on the age of the book and how bad the rust is, I've seen up to VF+ like the Action 1 on the census. But on yours I wouldn't bet too far above F/VF

[Weird]

Wow, thanks for the info. I don't have any experience with books with rust, so this goes a long way in determing how I will deal with the seller. I was originally prepared to basically overlook it for the most part.

 

They are nice looking books, too. I'd post the whole book, but don't have an image host. The one I have is a nice VF/NM DC Special 11 (not considering the rust, of course). Oh well, you live, you learn. Thanks to all who gave me advice. Once I figure out how to give stars, you got 'em.

[fantastic_four]

Any idea on how quickly rust will spread into paper under normal conditions?

 

Over the next few decades if kept in the same environmental conditions, but much longer if you're able to store them well. Does rust get progressively worse once it's present? It's just chemical residue from the metal and not an organism so I don't think it gets worse on its own, but I could be wrong.

 

 

As in, is this something I should worry about or is serious damage far on down the line?

 

Serious damage is far on down the line, but probably not if you store them well. I haven't thought much about rust specifically--isn't it caused by water? I'd like to offer the hypothesis that high humidity causes staple rust, but I can't because I've seen Silver Age books with White pages and rusty staples...so I'm not sure. Maybe some staples are more vulnerable to it than others due to some production defect.

[Aces]

I hate staple rust and water damage!

More than tape even!

 

Don't invest in (buy) expensive comics with any moisture damage at all!

[garthgantu]

A few comments:

 

FF, having lived on the coast for many years, I can say that the saline content of the water in question could be to blame... I've seen cars whose bodies are just rusting away from the salt spray... I'm guessing that even with modest humidity, a book could end up with rusty staples if it was regularly exposed to air near the seaside.

 

Weird: I would respectfully submit that a book like the one you're describing can't really be more than a FN/VF with that kind of staple rust. Yes, there are exceptions, like the Action 1...but that's a key GA book that gets more than its share of "forgiveness" from the CGC graders, as we've seen from other examples.

 

I would summarize the 'concensus' of this thread as follows: we know that staple rust is bad, and can affect the structural integrity of a book as well as its "aesthetic appearance." Whether the book will continue to deteriorate to some degree even if stored carefully (I think it will), is open to debate. Whether it's possible to safely remove staple rust, I tend to doubt.

 

I would approach the books in question very carefully, and not pay more than 30% of the VF guide price. But that's just me...

[fantastic_four]

Weird: I would respectfully submit that a book like the one you're describing can't really be more than a FN/VF with that kind of staple rust.

 

I've got two Silver Age books which note staple rust on the label; one is an 8.5 and the other is a 9.0. I can't remember what the highest grade I've seen them give to a comic with rusty staples is; it's hard to tell now that they don't note it on the label anymore.

[Mephisto]

That Tec 69 CGC 8.5 I just got has slightly rusted staples in the graders note when I called but I guess they weren't rusted abd enough to note it on the label. I honestly haven't even really looked over the staples to see for myself how they look.

[garthgantu]

FF and Mephisto: Interesting... to me, staple rust is a big 'warning sign' - In a way I'm glad to hear that CGC 'allows' rust on higher grade books, as my copy of Thing! #16 has very slightly rusted staples... on the other hand, I'm shocked that they'd allow rust on staples in a HG book.

 

Do you think this is limited only to GA and SA? The poster of this thread is talking about BA books..?

[Mephisto]

Garth if I hadn't called for graders notes I probably won't have known other than looking them over real good. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there are many many books out there in higher grades with slightly rusted staples that are not severe enough that they note it on the label but simply note it in the graders comments section. You also have to factor that it appears that GA books often get the benefit of the doubt. I definitly do feel that a bronze book would be penalized more for this defect.

[davidking623]

Weird: I would respectfully submit that a book like the one you're describing can't really be more than a FN/VF with that kind of staple rust.

 

I've got two Silver Age books which note staple rust on the label; one is an 8.5 and the other is a 9.0. I can't remember what the highest grade I've seen them give to a comic with rusty staples is; it's hard to tell now that they don't note it on the label anymore.

 

 

 

I bought some X men books about a 2 years ago and they were real nice books average 9.0/ 9.6 but some had real bad staple rust with some minor rust on themI sent in 2 books in from this collection one being X Men 103 strong canidate for 9.6 possibly 9.8 and it came back 9.2 so I imagine deduct for one bad rusted staple by 2-3 grades down as one was 9.4 but came back 9.0 because of the staple rust on one of the staples. I also sent in a X men 138 in to CGC that I missed looking at the staple at that was 9.6 in my opionion and it came back 8.5 OOPPPS !There was no mention of staple rust on the labels either!!

 

 

Davidking623

[Mephisto]

You ever call and get graderes comments to see if that's where the points were taken off?

[fantastic_four]

Do you think this is limited only to GA and SA? The poster of this thread is talking about BA books..?

 

Hard to say, but I doubt it's limited to just GA/SA. I haven't seen any convincing evidence they grade the ages differently for any defects which aren't related to the comic's manufacture other than "very minor" GA restoration. I lean towards them being more lenient on production-related defects the older the book is and the more common the defect is on books from that age.

[garthgantu]

I would tend to agree with this assessment, based on the available facts. But man, a BA book with rusted staples - who knows what those staples might look like in another 20-30 years, even if the book is slabbed ASAP ? Frightening.

 

It's stunning to me that staple rust isn't 'penalized' more heavily by CGC. To me, two moderately rusted staples are as bad as a detached centerfold...and that's pretty bad.

[fantastic_four]

It's stunning to me that staple rust isn't 'penalized' more heavily by CGC. To me, two moderately rusted staples are as bad as a detached centerfold...and that's pretty bad.

 

Why's it that bad? The staples are EXTREMELY minor parts of the book. If the rust migrates to the paper and discolors it, that's another story, but the rust all by itself is minor, minor, minor. You can clean rust off, which is why "conservation" should be a standard, commonly used category we place some types of work into.

[garthgantu]

Well there's a difference between "you CAN" clean rust off, and "you can clean rust off if you want a PLOD from CGC," right? So that's one reason to fear rust right there - you'll either get penalized in the grade, or given the PLOD if you try to remove the offending rust.

 

Secondly, there's the issue of the rust migrating to the paper, as you mention. This is a very real possibility that we've all seen, and I'm not sure any of us would feel confident predicting the future of a staple that has begun to rust...? (I know I wouldn't.)

 

Thirdly, I think rusty staples look bad - very bad. I personally would never consider a book to be in NM if it had staples with the amount of rust depicted in the original poster's scans. That's not much rust, but then again a 1/4" corner fold isn't much of a fold, either, and it's enough to knock a book down at least a couple of notches.

 

I'd stand behind the contention that moderately rusty staples (more rust than show in the OP's pics, but not enough to have begun migrating to the paper) is as bad as a detached centerfold, or very close to as bad.

[fantastic_four]

Well there's a difference between "you CAN" clean rust off, and "you can clean rust off if you want a PLOD from CGC," right? So that's one reason to fear rust right there - you'll either get penalized in the grade, or given the PLOD if you try to remove the offending rust.

 

They give it the Qualified grade if that's the only work done. I wish they'd come up with a "Conserved" grade for staple cleaning, tape removal, spine split seals, and other conservative techniques.