Vampirella #1 = first bronze age book?

[RedRaven]

Well probably not , first of all its a magazine which immediately knocks it out of contention (unfortunately) and secondly Vampi didnt star in the book until issue 12 ...

 

But, after doing a little research it seems that Conan 1 is the leading (arguably) candidate for first bronze book. Most commonly cited reason was that it showed a non-hero book can sell and opened the flood-gates for the non-hero titles of the 70's ...(the point of contention on this is usually that the relaxing of the CCA rules also had a huge contributing factor and that goes back to ASM 96 etc , but I digresss) ..

Anyways, if the above is true than what exactly do we say about the Vampirella book being that IMO it matches the exact same criteria ... A hugely popular non-hero comic which predated Conan #1 ... Now as to what its influence was on the market at the time I have absolutely no idea. Any further thoughts or am I singing solo on this one?

[towards2112]

You're out there on your own vine dude....

Swing away.....

[Zonker]

Any further thoughts or am I singing solo on this one?

 

Not a solo act...

 

...unless you used to be called 'Theagenes?'

[joe_collector]

But, after doing a little research it seems that Conan 1 is the leading (arguably) candidate for first bronze book. Most commonly cited reason was that it showed a non-hero book can sell and opened the flood-gates for the non-hero titles of the 70's

 

Actually, Conan was an anti-hero who killed with gusto, basically ended the Silver Age of Boyscouts, and opened the door for the darker Bronze Age characters, stories and comics that followed.

[ninanina]

But, after doing a little research it seems that Conan 1 is the leading (arguably) candidate for first bronze book. Most commonly cited reason was that it showed a non-hero book can sell and opened the flood-gates for the non-hero titles of the 70's

 

Actually, Conan was an anti-hero who killed with gusto, basically ended the Silver Age of Boyscouts, and opened the door for the darker Bronze Age characters, stories and comics that followed.

 

Well, that settles that.

[RedRaven]

Conan is definitely an anti-hero but did he spawn more anti-hero books in the 70's ? Or did he simply open the doors for other genres, which seems to me , to be the hallmark of the bronze age.. ( Or some combination of the two) . In any event , Zonkers Link pretty well convinced me that Conan1 is the key bronze book but I still feel Vampirella 1 has been ignored solely for no better reason than its format.

[joe_collector]

Conan is definitely an anti-hero but did he spawn more anti-hero books in the 70's ? Or did he simply open the doors for other genres, which seems to me , to be the hallmark of the bronze age..

 

It depends on your point of view.

 

Obviously, death-dealing characters like Wolverine, Punisher, Deathlok, Bullseye, Killraven and others were direct influences of Conan, but I also view Dracula, Werewolf and the other "horror" characters as anti-heroes at their base.

 

I don't see so much a "new genres" slant, as I do a "anti heroes (and villains) who kill" theme throughout the Bronze Age. It didn't matter if they were mainstream (Wolvie and Punisher), horror (Dracula and Werewolf), sci-fi (Thanos) or other genres, the theme remained the same.

 

Good or bad, hero or villain, these guys would go the distance and waste anyone who got in their way.

 

And check out some the most memorable stories of the Bronze Age: Death of Gwen and Green Goblin, Captain Marvel/Thanos, Death of Phoenix, Death of Elektra, etc. and you'll see they revolve around death, which is something barely touched on in the Silver Age, and something that Conan epitomized.

[aardvark88]

Roy Thomas' adaptation of R. E. Howard's Conan made comics enjoyable to READ again. Less outlandish than spandex clad cosmic heroes. Conan spawned Savage Sword, King Kull, Kull & Barbarians, Soloman Kane, Red Sonja/M Feature, Cerebus an Earthpig born!

[Zonker]

but I still feel Vampirella 1 has been ignored solely for no better reason than its format.

 

But wasn't Vampirella a continuation of the Warren approach to mags like Creepy and Eerie, an approach that kept the pre-Code horror genre going in a parallel universe of B&W, non-CCA work distinct from the Marvel Age and DC Silver?

 

I'm not a big Warren fan, so I may be missing something that Vampirella represents as a turning point?

[RedRaven]

But wasn't Vampirella a continuation of the Warren approach to mags like Creepy and Eerie,

 

That statement would be correct until issue 12 of Vampi. Issues 1-11 saw vampirella in a role similiar to the Crypt-keeper in that she mainly introduced the stories , kinda a hostess for the book. Issue 12 saw Vampi emerge as the star of the series featured in her own stories. In this way Vampirella seperates itself from the Creepy and Eerie horror anthologies...Neither of which would see recurring characters until later in their runs (The Rook etc...)

 

Note: I may be an issue off regarding Vampi taking over the book , could be 11 but I'm not cracking one open to find out

 

THe reasons you mention for Creepy and Eerie are exactly (IMO) why those books arent considered any sort of bronze key , they are definitely not silver age (despite motoring up to production in the mid 60's) but arent considered bronze either ,,,

[towards2112]

I've always viewed the subject in a much simpler, and probably

a much more nieve way as a general time when the price changes

occurred. 12 cent covers seem to fall into the silverage catagory,

15 centers to me always appearred to be the actual 'changing of

the guard' time frame, and with the introduction of the 20 cent

covers, we were actually into what most would call the bronze age.

Whether or not an actual publication, IE : a specific title/issue/event

actually places a date on the time frame, well I always thought that

the passage of ages was a tad more spread out.

[delekkerste]

Note: I may be an issue off regarding Vampi taking over the book , could be 11 but I'm not cracking one open to find out

 

Vampi took over the book permanently with issue #11. Though she was not a main feature in issue #10, her non-cameo, full-time adventures started in issue #8 in November 1970 (which also featured the introduction of the van Helsings). Both issue #8 and #9 feature full Vampi stories.

 

Do you know what the circulation figures were for these early Vampi issues? I agree that she fits the mold of a Bronze Age character, but my impression was that the circulation figures and influence of Conan were both much greater than for our Drakulonian femme fatale.

 

Gene

[RedRaven]

No idea on the circulation numbers .... I've been trying to find that info out for about a year with no luck

 

As far as to the impact that Vampirella had on the market , I have no facts to back this up but isn't it interesting that around 1970 Stan Lee decided that Marvel should make a huge investment in Publishing BW magazines and basically spent the 70's swamping the market with a slew of sub-standard mags centered around decidely bronze age characters

[JohnBull]

But, after doing a little research it seems that Conan 1 is the leading (arguably) candidate for first bronze book. Most commonly cited reason was that it showed a non-hero book can sell and opened the flood-gates for the non-hero titles of the 70's ...(the point of contention on this is usually that the relaxing of the CCA rules also had a huge contributing factor and that goes back to ASM 96 etc , but I digresss) ..

Anyways, if the above is true than what exactly do we say about the Vampirella book being that IMO it matches the exact same criteria ... A hugely popular non-hero comic which predated Conan #1 ... Now as to what its influence was on the market at the time I have absolutely no idea. Any further thoughts or am I singing solo on this one?

 

I thought Conan had major sales problems at first, so whilst the title might have showed that non-heroes could sell, the first issue isn't the one that did it.

 

These things are viewed with a degree of mysticism after the event. It's pretty easy to have Action 1 as the first GA book, Superman was a departure and the cover was an eye opener, but even the SA is sketchy. Showcase 4 ? Strange Adventures 9 ? Detective 225 ? Most of us would go with Showcase 4, but does that make Showcase 5 a SA issue ? For that matter, how many pre-1960 DC's are definably SA by what we tend to take the term to show (is Adventure 228 really that different to Adventure 229) ?

 

I think the BA is the same. We know it exists and there is a point where it becomes omnipresent, but what was the first issue ? House of Secrets 92 is a contender, but although it is an extremely important book, the mystery format was already going.

 

If you had to pick a book where something radically different occurred, I'd go for Green Lantern 76. Compare and contrast GL 75 and 76. There is a huge difference, with the cover and with the inside story. I'm not sure how much Neal Adams' work stands up nowadays (I think he's the cover artist supreme, but I much preferred the internals when I was reading them 20-25 years ago), but it really was ground breaking stuff at the time. The 180 degree rule doesn't get much of a mention today, but Adams totally changed the perception of what could be done on the comic page. This may not be his first work or his best, but put together with the topical storylines, this was the series that ushered in a new direction for comics.

[joe_collector]

Yeah, I've always felt that Marvel and DC were going in two totally different directions for the Bronze Age, and you almost need two different startiing points.

 

Conan #1 is a no-brainer for Marvel, but DC is tougher.

 

Like you said, the "first Bronze issue" (like the Silver) wasn't something that just happened, but a book that set off a tidal wave of similar products and paved the way for similar characters, themes and comics.

 

I don't really know that GL/GA 76 did that for DC, as it was an important landmark issue, but it's not that DC went ahead and infused all of their subsequent books with the "cutting edge realism" of that comic. It's not enough to put out a ground-breaking title if the themes don't permeate the age.

 

I'm not as familiar with the DC's of that time as I am with Marvel, but from re-reading the Marvel books and Bullpen Bulletins from that era, it's clear that Conan was the trailblazer at Marvel. You can even see it on the new comics that Marvel issued at the time, with many featuring a reference to Conan.

 

After a slow start, it topped the sales charts, was a perennial award winner, and really proved a solid point:

 

You don't need Boy Scouts to sell comics. Anti-heroes and villains who kill went right along with the mood and cynicism of the early 70's as well.

[JohnBull]

Would you say there was a first BA Spiderman or FF issue ? Is the change imperceptible or can you point to one and say "yeah, that's really different" ?

[joe_collector]

Would you say there was a first BA Spiderman or FF issue ? Is the change imperceptible or can you point to one and say "yeah, that's really different" ?

 

Amazing Spider-man is an easy one, and that would be ASM 100-102. That's also the point that the Stan Lee era ended, and where Roy Thomas (and then later Gerry Conway) took over and turned the Silver Age on its ear.

 

We have a six-armed Spider-man running around (pretty scary for kids those days - I know, I read the reprints as a young lad ), chasing a villain who kills innocent bystanders (Morbius) in one of the freakiest ASM stories ever. Morbius was also the first ASM villain that I felt would really kill Spidey, no questions asked.

 

Fantastic Four is a bit more difficult to pin, as that was one title Stan the Man kept writing long into the Bronze Age. Sure, Kirby left, but the actual stories kept a Silver Age feel well after all the other titles had shifted.

[Aces]

FF 125 was the last Stan Lee story.

 

FF 126 was the start of the new story lines and that FF 1 cover swipe obviously made the statement "we are starting anew".

 

 

 

[joe_collector]

FF 125 was the last Stan Lee story.

 

FF 126 was the start of the new story lines and that FF 1 cover swipe obviously made the statement "we are starting anew".

 

I know, but the end of 1972 is still a long way off from 1970.... Due to this, I don't really think Fantastic Four ever really got that Bronze Age flavor.