A little corner of the UK 2 2

[He11blazer]

We're a day late and a dollar short here in the states when it comes to BBC stuff. Is Torchwood and Primeval returning?

 

Torchwood - supposedly, Primeval, no. ITV ran out of money.

 

Torchwood is back next year, 2011 (it was meant to be Autumn 2010)

 

I've heard rumors though that Primeval has been picked up by the Beeb (well UKTV anyhow) and will be airing a 3rd series on Watch.

 

They killed Torchwood for me when they had Captain Jack murder an innocent child 'because it was the only way to save everyone else'. That's all but impossible to justify in my book, and the story was light years away from being written well enough to justify it!

 

Ah who am I kidding, I'll still watch any more they can churn out

 

Don't want to turn this into an ethics debate but why is it impossible to justify? I haven't watched the programme but it sounds like the death of one to prevent the deaths of many more? I'd say it's a terrible choice to have to make but not unjustifiable.

 

It's a good question. My problem with the program in question is that I did not get a strong impression that they had adequately exhausted all avenues, nor that there was adequate evidence that the plan involving killing the boy would work.

 

Moreover, I'm with Kirk on this one: "The needs of the one, outweigh the needs of the many, or the few."

 

 

[gaz973]

Fair enough. (thumbs u

 

While I'm not sure that I ever agreed with the Kirk quote most of the time, I didn't see the progamme in question so I don't know what context it was all in.

 

Hope you're well, mate. Long time, no chat.

[He11blazer]

Fair enough. (thumbs u

 

While I'm not sure that I ever agreed with the Kirk quote most of the time, I didn't see the progamme in question so I don't know what context it was all in.

 

Hope you're well, mate. Long time, no chat.

 

 

It's definitely an interesting question. I always like to simplify difficult questions by taking a clear and extreme example.

 

Suppose there really is a god. His omnipotence is established beyond question and he communicates clearly with us. He demands a sacrifice of one 13 year old child a day, who must be tortured to death over the 24hr period before being replaced by the next day's sacrifice. As long as we comply, the whole world is free of war, disease, famine and natural disasters. As soon as we fail to keep up our end, the world reverts to what we have now.

 

By allowing the suffering and death of one innocent a day, millions will be spared and the world will prosper as never before.

 

Should we therefore go along with this hypothetical god? The pragmatic answer is a resounding YES.

 

My answer is still no. I could wax on for ages about why that is, but I'll spare you all for now I do find it interesting though because my answer is not logical, as Spock pointed out.

[kdoginohio]

I remember Spock saying the line, but not Kirk. Also, which episode has Capt. Jack killing a child? I don't think I missed any?

[He11blazer]

I remember Spock saying the line, but not Kirk. Also, which episode has Capt. Jack killing a child? I don't think I missed any?

 

I confused the quote slightly, but it goes like this:

 

At the end of ST2:The Wrath of Khan, Spock has doomed himself to death in order to save everyone on the ship...

 

Spock: Don't grieve, Admiral. It is logical. The needs of the many outweigh...

Kirk: ...the needs of the few...

Spock: ...Or the one.

 

Always gets me, that bit.

 

2 years later in ST3:The Search for Spock, Kirk has resurrected Spock at great risk and cost to himself and his crew. A confused Spock, still trying to recall his past life, wonders why Kirk went to so much trouble...

 

Captain Spock: My father says that you have been my friend. You came back for me.

Kirk: You would have done the same for me.

Captain Spock: Why would you do this?

Kirk: Because the needs of the one... outweigh the needs of the many.

Captain Spock: [pacing] I have been and ever shall be your friend.

Kirk: Yes. Yes, Spock.

Captain Spock: Ship, out of danger?

Kirk: You saved the ship. You saved us all. Don't you remember?

Captain Spock: Jim. Your name is Jim.

Kirk: Yes.

 

There I go again.

 

So Kirk turned Spock's argument around, yet they both used their version of the argument to justify heroic acts. It's one of the better moments in Trek

[He11blazer]

I will here completely spoil the ending of the five part Children of Earth, which was a Torchwood mini-series after series 2.

 

 

Cap'n Jack abducts and murders his own young grandson in order to save millions of other children.

 

 

The first few episodes are the best Torchwood episodes made. Pity it fails to deliver in the end.

[kdoginohio]

I will here completely spoil the ending of the five part Children of Earth, which was a Torchwood mini-series after series 2.

 

 

Cap'n Jack abducts and murders his own young grandson in order to save millions of other children.

 

 

The first few episodes are the best Torchwood episodes made. Pity it fails to deliver in the end.

That's right, the kid had to channel everything thru his body.

 

 

[He11blazer]

I will here completely spoil the ending of the five part Children of Earth, which was a Torchwood mini-series after series 2.

 

 

Cap'n Jack abducts and murders his own young grandson in order to save millions of other children.

 

 

The first few episodes are the best Torchwood episodes made. Pity it fails to deliver in the end.

That's right, the kid had to channel everything thru his body.

 

 

It was too sudden. Can you imagine? He ripped the child from the mother's arms (his daughter) and locked her outside while he killed him. I suppose the idea is that true heroism sometimes means doing things you will be hated for, but I don't dig it.

 

If I imagine that the world was probably to be destroyed but the death of my daughter could save it? Screw the world, I'll fight tooth and nail for any alternative, and I'll kill anyone who tries to take my girl. It's an emotional response of course, but without emotional responses life is as sacred as interstellar dust.

 

I should add that if it was the death of some complete stranger that was required to save the world, I'm confident my decision would be exactly the same. No way, never.

 

This discussion really belongs in the water cooler!

[kdoginohio]

I will here completely spoil the ending of the five part Children of Earth, which was a Torchwood mini-series after series 2.

 

 

Cap'n Jack abducts and murders his own young grandson in order to save millions of other children.

 

 

The first few episodes are the best Torchwood episodes made. Pity it fails to deliver in the end.

That's right, the kid had to channel everything thru his body.

 

 

It was too sudden. Can you imagine? He ripped the child from the mother's arms (his daughter) and locked her outside while he killed him. I suppose the idea is that true heroism sometimes means doing things you will be hated for, but I don't dig it.

 

If I imagine that the world was probably to be destroyed but the death of my daughter could save it? Screw the world, I'll fight tooth and nail for any alternative, and I'll kill anyone who tries to take my girl. It's an emotional response of course, but without emotional responses life is as sacred as interstellar dust.

 

I should add that if it was the death of some complete stranger that was required to save the world, I'm confident my decision would be exactly the same. No way, never.

 

This discussion really belongs in the water cooler!

Go ahead and try it there. Should be interesting to see how long it takes for the usual cast of characters to melt down.

[Comicopolis]

I will here completely spoil the ending of the five part Children of Earth, which was a Torchwood mini-series after series 2.

 

 

Cap'n Jack abducts and murders his own young grandson in order to save millions of other children.

 

 

The first few episodes are the best Torchwood episodes made. Pity it fails to deliver in the end.

 

I agree to a degree about the quality of those Torchwood episodes. I think the ending may well have been written before the full story was developed just to give CJ a justification to leave. I also think that his detachment from having real human relationships made it inevitable that he would sacrifice his grandchild - a grandchild that he never really had a connection to apart from biology.

[Boozad]

Who'da thunk you could get such a deep conversation arise from a BBC drama?

 

Now if it was Life On Mars of course...

[kdoginohio]

Who'da thunk you could get such a deep conversation arise from a BBC drama?

 

Now if it was Life On Mars of course...

Go ahead, Gav. I'll just sit here and catch up on reruns so I understand what you're talking about. Sorry, always wanted to try that show, but never got to it. Even the American version didn't show interest.

[Boozad]

Who'da thunk you could get such a deep conversation arise from a BBC drama?

 

Now if it was Life On Mars of course...

Go ahead, Gav. I'll just sit here and catch up on reruns so I understand what you're talking about. Sorry, always wanted to try that show, but never got to it. Even the American version didn't show interest.

 

Life on Mars was fantastic, probably the best English drama I've enjoyed for years. I'd recommend having another go at watching it, it's well worth it in the end. To get the bigger picture though you'd have to watch both series and all three series of the follow-up Ashes to Ashes.

 

Top notch stuff (thumbs u

[kdoginohio]

Who'da thunk you could get such a deep conversation arise from a BBC drama?

 

Now if it was Life On Mars of course...

Go ahead, Gav. I'll just sit here and catch up on reruns so I understand what you're talking about. Sorry, always wanted to try that show, but never got to it. Even the American version didn't show interest.

 

Life on Mars was fantastic, probably the best English drama I've enjoyed for years. I'd recommend having another go at watching it, it's well worth it in the end. To get the bigger picture though you'd have to watch both series and all three series of the follow-up Ashes to Ashes.

 

Top notch stuff (thumbs u

Ashes to Ashes just came out this past year?

[Comicopolis]

Never had chance to see Ashes to Ashes but I really liked Life on Mars.

 

Does Ashes to Ashes develop the LOM story further Gav?

[Boozad]

Never had chance to see Ashes to Ashes but I really liked Life on Mars.

 

Does Ashes to Ashes develop the LOM story further Gav?

 

I wasn't too keen on it at first, but it grew on me the more I watched it. I missed a lot of the second sreies but jumped into the third easy enough. The third series blows it all open and explains everything, it was excellent the way they did it as I didn't figure it out until late on. Sam Tyler's mentioned a lot, in fact he's a key player without even being in it.

 

I'd highly recommend picking them up Andrew if you liked LOM (thumbs u

[Comicopolis]

Never had chance to see Ashes to Ashes but I really liked Life on Mars.

 

Does Ashes to Ashes develop the LOM story further Gav?

 

I wasn't too keen on it at first, but it grew on me the more I watched it. I missed a lot of the second sreies but jumped into the third easy enough. The third series blows it all open and explains everything, it was excellent the way they did it as I didn't figure it out until late on. Sam Tyler's mentioned a lot, in fact he's a key player without even being in it.

 

I'd highly recommend picking them up Andrew if you liked LOM (thumbs u

 

Cheers mate - will now get the wife to buy the box sets

[He11blazer]

I will here completely spoil the ending of the five part Children of Earth, which was a Torchwood mini-series after series 2.

 

 

Cap'n Jack abducts and murders his own young grandson in order to save millions of other children.

 

 

The first few episodes are the best Torchwood episodes made. Pity it fails to deliver in the end.

 

I agree to a degree about the quality of those Torchwood episodes. I think the ending may well have been written before the full story was developed just to give CJ a justification to leave. I also think that his detachment from having real human relationships made it inevitable that he would sacrifice his grandchild - a grandchild that he never really had a connection to apart from biology.

 

That's a good point. How old is he by now/then? When musing on immortality it often occurs to me that a downside is that after a few hundred years or so other people will seem less and less like equals. I imagine that as the millenia fly by they might become more like pets, then cattle, then insects, then dust, which is a depressing thought.

 

The older I get, the more I realise how overrated immortality is (still better than nothing mind you).

 

I just realised that reading the above it sounds like I am an immortal Nah, not yet anyway

[kdoginohio]

So, is Capt. Jack the Face of Boe?

 

[He11blazer]

So, is Capt. Jack the Face of Boe?

 

I like the idea, but I effing hate his final words! He waits billions of years to help his old friend with a stupid crossword puzzle that is impossible to solve until after the moment it would have been helpful? Aaargh!

 

Apparently Davis has refused any spin-off books to make the Jack/Boe connection explicit. He wants it kept possible but not decided.