Daredevil 158 or 168, who wins?

[rob_react]

I'll stand by DD 168 being a lame story.

 

Boy meets girl.

Boy loses girl.

Boy is depressed.

 

Woo hoo.

 

Miller's ending is sappy and sentimental, designed to artifically tug at your heartstrings.

 

Compare how you feel on reading Electra's death scene in 181 to reading 168. By 181, Miller was master of his domain. 168 is a sophmoric effort at best. The fact that it may be better than most other comic book stories of the time says little for comic book stories of the time.

 

Where's Rob_React when you really need him?

 

Here I am! I'm not a real pit bull for these sort of discussions, so my appearance might be a little disappointing

 

The following is rushed because I'm trying to get out the door, but I think it'll work.

 

 

 

I will make a few comments. the one direct comment to seank's post is, if simply following the pattern:

 

"Boy meets girl.

Boy loses girl.

Boy is depressed."

 

is grounds for dismissal, then I'm in trouble. I'm going to have to find, at the very minimum, a new favorite Ernest Hemingway novel because that's EXACTLY the pattern of Farewell to Arms. The point being, there are only so many basic stories you can tell, it's all in how you do it- and seank doesn't like the way Miller does it in 168. We'll have to find a way to live with that

 

I also should mention, I think comparing the emotional impact of 168 and 181 is unfair. They're really two different kind of stories and the fact that Elektra DIES at the end of 181 changes the stakes so much that, to me, the comparison is meaningless.

 

Other than that, personally I think a lot of what makes DD 168 so successful is in the simple stuff. It ISN'T a very "big" story. Let's be honest, at its kernel, it's just Miller's retelling Will Eisner's Spirit/ Sand Serif story. But more than any other Miller story, DD 168 is, for lack of a better word, charming. For me, there are all these tiny elements and moments (a few of which Gene mentions) that come together along with the simple "boy meets girl, boy loses girl" story to create a true classic. Because I buy into that blend of elements, it really works for me as a standalone story. More importantly it set the "human" tone that constantly ran just below the surface for the rest of his run. For example, whatever happened afterwards they were still, at some level, this sweet "love at first sight" couple. That mattered.

 

[supapimp]

either way both books are still HOT in CGC NM+ 9.6 DD 158 DD 168

[supapimp]

comiclink has a DD 158 CGC 9.8 WHITE $1600

[lighthouse]

I'm going to have to find, at the very minimum, a new favorite Ernest Hemingway novel because that's EXACTLY the pattern of Farewell to Arms.

 

Priest every night, five against one...

 

I am stunned that anyone can attempt to make a compelling argument for DD 158... If you look back over the last fifteen years of comic collecting, you will see many instances where the first issue for a creator on a title has a meteoric rise in price then comes back to earth. First appearances of characters do much better in the long run, because characters are more likely to still be around in the future when the creators have moved on.

 

For every Green Lantern 76, there are five Uncanny X-Men 248's... Books like Amazing Spider-Man 30 (v2) and Batman 608 are doomed to decline. If a title is relaunched with the arrival of the new creator it may have longer legs (Kevin Smith's Daredevil 1 is an example). But the sheep who generate rapid price increases only care about creators while they are creating...

 

That's not to say that DD 158 won't always carry a premium. It certainly will, just like Amazing 298, Uncanny 248, etc... But if you break out your last fifteen Overstreets you'll see that's it's just not the book to go long on...

 

DD 158 is always going to be worth more than the common issues around it, just like the Steranko X-Men issues, the Adams Batman issues, and so on. But Frank Miller has plenty of time left to put out DK3 and DK4 and drown any reputation he once had...

[seank]

Yikes!

 

For the record, I agree that money-wise, DD 168 is the book to go with. Electra is insanely popular and Frank Miller is the man. A character first appearance will probably always win out over an artist's first appearance.

 

That said, and I know I'm in the minority here, I don't think the story in DD 168 is as good as most people make it out to be.

 

But consider this, in this one thread, we've talked more about the virtues and failings of the story in DD 168 than every thread posted about Hulk 181 has talked about the virtures and failings of the story in Hulk 181. As someone who loves to read comics, that makes this thread worthwhile.

[delekkerste]

But consider this, in this one thread, we've talked more about the virtues and failings of the story in DD 168 than every thread posted about Hulk 181 has talked about the virtures and failings of the story in Hulk 181. As someone who loves to read comics, that makes this thread worthwhile.

 

 

 

That said, and I know I'm in the minority here, I don't think the story in DD 168 is as good as most people make it out to be.

 

Well, we'll just agree to disagree here. I'm with R_R when he says that the story is, for lack of a better word, "charming". One bonus part I enjoy is that a key part of the story takes place in my neighborhood...I live less than a block away from the Village Cigars shop where DD shakes down some low-level stoolie for the whereabouts of the fleeing Wallenquist.

 

Here's a scan from the French version of the book, where the classic line "Hit 'em low, Olive Oil!" has been replaced by "Allume-le, huile d'olive!" ("light him up, Olive Oil!")

 

Eugène

 

[WillFury]

168 in a landslide.

[rshale]

Wasn't the OS Guide price for 158 in NM in the $25-$30 range from like 1987 thru 2001?

[WillFury]

Well I'm looking at the 1990 OS and actually it had #158 at $36.00 in NM and 168 at $16 in NM.

[comicartfan]

158 isnt even the first Frank Miller Daredevil. That's PPSSM 27. DD 158 is only the first miller art on the actual Daredevil title. 168 is a much better book.

 

 

what he said !