Selling a Sketch

[innocuous]

Reading through the eBay follies thread was interesting and I'm curious to hear more opinions about this topic.

 

Unless you flat out lie to the artist, I see nothing wrong with selling a sketch. Whatever your motives for acquiring and subsequently selling a sketch, the end result is a fan of the artist having something they want. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

The artist themselves recognize this practice. I have spent over $200 to get a sketch. And, when I have reason to sell, I will try to recoup as much of that as possible.

 

Even some of the dealers on this board will be the middle man to your sketch. I'm happy to pay their fee, for something I want.

 

I could go on, but let's hear others.

[comix4fun]

Discussion already in progress... (thumbs u

[innocuous]

That's the thread I was referringto, but I wanted to expand the topic. I cH keep my comments there if it is easier for everyone to follow.

[comix4fun]

That's the thread I was referringto, but I wanted to expand the topic. I cH keep my comments there if it is easier for everyone to follow.

 

 

Naw tangents are good. I thought you were referring to the discussion on Comic Art L.

 

We can refocus the discussion here.

 

C

[Mac Man]

 

I think the one point that I read that I do agree with is if an artist is giving out a limited # of free sketches and someone gets one simply to sell whereas the next person in line who just missed out very well might have never sold the item. I'm not saying I'm completely against it, but I can also see where it would certainly leave a sour taste in someone's mouth.

[The Troll King]

 

I think the one point that I read that I do agree with is if an artist is giving out a limited # of free sketches and someone gets one simply to sell whereas the next person in line who just missed out very well might have never sold the item. I'm not saying I'm completely against it, but I can also see where it would certainly leave a sour taste in someone's mouth.

 

 

That "sour taste" in the end results in artists either increasing their commission/sketch prices or in many cases not doing con sketches at all.

 

How is that good for anyone?

 

My Mark Brooks sketch is a prime example. It is an incredible sketch that I could easily flip on eBay but the result would be two-fold. I most likely will NEVER get another sketch from him (whether I pay or not) and he would most likely end up charging others more for a sketch.

 

It's the same attitude that David Finch and his wife have and the reason that Finch (who use to not charge for sketches) now charges upwards of $400 at times.

 

Same with Adam Hughes, Allison got a-hold of the situation by increasing the rates AND limiting exactly who she lets get a sketch.

 

Original art and actual commissions are one thing, but flipping con sketches sometimes less than 24 hours after an event is just flat out profiteering/scalping

 

If I had a piece that I got several years ago that no longer fits into my collection then sure, but list fillers that get sketches with the sole purpose of reselling is BS

[TStrong-migration]

It seems to me that if you pay an artist for a sketch, it's your's. Sell it, keep it, burn it. Your choice.

 

It's a different matter if you've approached the artist as a fan and received it for free. If the "I'm your greatest fan" spiel has gotten you a free sketch, you're pretty low to sell the artwork.

 

My opinion anyway.

[The Troll King]

It seems to me that if you pay an artist for a sketch, it's your's. Sell it, keep it, burn it. Your choice.

 

It's a different matter if you've approached the artist as a fan and received it for free. If the "I'm your greatest fan" spiel has gotten you a free sketch, you're pretty low to sell the artwork.

 

My opinion anyway.

 

To each his own, but at the same time this also leads to people like BWS requiring you to sign an agreement that if you sell the piece that you owe him 15% of the profit.

 

Most artists out there earn a meager living as it is. To take something that they just created for you and immediately flip it is slimey.

 

It's no different then these a-holes who buy toys at Wal-mart, take them to a convention/show with a 300% mark-up and then take them back to Wal-mart to get their money back when it doesn't sell at the con/show.

[Meeley Man]

It seems to me that if you pay an artist for a sketch, it's your's. Sell it, keep it, burn it. Your choice.

 

It's a different matter if you've approached the artist as a fan and received it for free. If the "I'm your greatest fan" spiel has gotten you a free sketch, you're pretty low to sell the artwork.

 

My opinion anyway.

 

Yes, but the point is that quite a few (not all, but a good portion of) artists charge a fee for con sketches now, BECAUSE they saw free ones they used to do going up on eBay days or weeks after they did it. It is the desire to protect themselves from being used and expolited in that manner, which has caused them to charge for something that was always done as a show of goodwill. And that's provided they still do them, as other artists have just stopped doing them at all, which costs EVERYONE, not just eBay mercenaries.

 

I'm sure every flipper comes up saying, "I'm a really big fan of your work" to every artist they try to obtain a sketch from. I mean, if they told them the truth, they know they'd likely end up with nothing.

 

So, while we all suffer due to flippers and have to pay for the sketch, that doesn't mean we can't have the right to call them out on this heinous practice and get pissed off about it. A sketch obtained at a con should not be sold, unless it has been a long time since you got it (like say 5 years, minimum). To do otherwise, whether it was paid for or not, is to disrepsect the goodwill sketches are supposed to represent between the fans and the artists.

[comicartlinks-migration]

Yes, but the point is that quite a few (not all, but a good portion of) artists charge a fee for con sketches now, BECAUSE they saw free ones they used to do going up on eBay days or weeks after they did it. It is the desire to protect themselves from being used and expolited in that manner, which has caused them to charge for something that was always done as a show of goodwill. And that's provided they still do them, as other artists have just stopped doing them at all, which costs EVERYONE, not just eBay mercenaries.

 

Well said Meeley,

 

I sell artwork for a few artists, all of whom started out with free sketches at some point. Most don't do free sketches now, or do far fewer of them. It's absolutely infuriating (for me if not them) to get home from a convention to see that the sketch is already up for auction.

 

 

I'm sure every flipper comes up saying, "I'm a really big fan of your work" to every artist they try to obtain a sketch from. I mean, if they told them the truth, they know they'd likely end up with nothing.

 

 

Again, you're pretty much dead on.

 

 

So, while we all suffer due to flippers and have to pay for the sketch, that doesn't mean we can't have the right to call them out on this heinous practice and get pissed off about it. A sketch obtained at a con should not be sold, unless it has been a long time since you got it (like say 5 years, minimum). To do otherwise, whether it was paid for or not, is to disrepsect the goodwill sketches are supposed to represent between the fans and the artists.

 

Once again, I agree. I can't imagine selling a sketch I got for free unless it meant putting food on the table for my kids. Equate it to any other industry. Athletes rarely sign outside the stadium anymore because they got sick of being taken advantage of. If people didn't sell the autographs at auction, kids might still be able to get their baseball signed with some regularity.

 

Selling sketches that you paid for usually isn't much better. Most of the time artists aren't charging full rate for they're work. The price is usually based reduced from it's worth because most comic artists are pretty good people and fan friendly. Imagine you saw Paul McCartney at a convention. If you asked, do you think he would right you a verse? What about for a couple hundred dollars? Somehow I don't think so...

 

Anyway, those are my two cents, but I must admit I have a strong bias.

 

Best Regards,

Shawn

 

[innocuous]

Price for many is relative. If I paid $200 for a sketch and want to flip it, I wouldn't have any issue about doing it. Of course, if I paid $200, it is probably for something I want to keep for a while. But still, I don't see a problem with this.

[Meeley Man]

Price for many is relative. If I paid $200 for a sketch and want to flip it, I wouldn't have any issue about doing it. Of course, if I paid $200, it is probably for something I want to keep for a while. But still, I don't see a problem with this.

 

So, the fact that doing that, might cause the artist to charge more money to discourage flipping, making it more expensive for other fans to have a sketch by the artist (and preventing many of them from ever having the chance to have one), who wouldn't do that, or even worse, having the artist consider not doing ANYMORE sketches at shows, thereby costing EVERYONE the chance to have a keepsake piece by that artist, doesn't bother you?

 

Wow, I guess some people's sense of selfishness knows no bounds.

[Mighty Hal]

So, the fact that doing that, might cause the artist to charge more money to discourage flipping, making it more expesnive for other fans (and preventing many of them from ever having the chance to have one), who wouldn't do that, or even worse, having the artist consider not doing ANYMORE sketches at shows, thereby costing EVERYONE the chance to have a keepsake piece by that artist, doesn't bother you?

 

Wow, I guess some people's sense of selfishness know no bounds.

 

James, I think you're in attack-mode there. And too harsh. But, then, you are (or were) a dealer and you have a different perspective. Here's my view:

 

If I was willing to pay $200 for a sketch, then I think the artist made his money. If Mister Wonderful, currently-hot artist, collects that kind of money for a frickin' sketch, he's got no gripe when I eBay his 15-minute wonder on eBay.

 

(I wouldn't claim to be a fan only to get the sketch and sell it. That's not right. But if this is a money for effort transaction, bring it on.)

 

Now, maybe I'm naive. I don't get the appeal of sketches and have no interest in collecting them. But don't most of these pieces get knocked off in minutes? Does Mr. Wonderful routinely earn more than $200 an hour, putting out unfinished work that no editor can reject?

 

Personally, I think it's krazy money to buy a sketch for this kind of money. (And didn't somebody say that Dave Finch gets $400 for a SKETCH? If he knocked out one an hour -- and I'll bet he doesn't spend on an hour on a sketch -- forty hours a week, that's over $800,000 a year. Am I the only one that thinks that this is a stupid amount of money for the artist's effort?)

 

Most artists do commissioned work, too...so, if I miss a sketch at the con, I can get a finished piece when I get home. In less than ten minutes of 'net searching, I've discovered I can get commissioned work from Norm Breyfogle, Dave Hoover, Joe Prado and a lot of others for that $200 or less...and, personally, I think that's a better deal.

 

In any case, Mr. Wonderful has been well-paid, fans have other options, and I don't see that selling a sketch...if you somehow manage to find a buyer that's willing to pay more than your $200...is the height of selfishness.

[Meeley Man]

James, I think you're in attack-mode there. And too harsh. But, then, you are (or were) a dealer and you have a different perspective. Here's my view:

 

If I was willing to pay $200 for a sketch, then I think the artist made his money. If Mister Wonderful, currently-hot artist, collects that kind of money for a frickin' sketch, he's got no gripe when I eBay his 15-minute wonder on eBay.

 

(I wouldn't claim to be a fan only to get the sketch and sell it. That's not right. But if this is a money for effort transaction, bring it on.)

 

Now, maybe I'm naive. I don't get the appeal of sketches and have no interest in collecting them. But don't most of these pieces get knocked off in minutes? Does Mr. Wonderful routinely earn more than $200 an hour, putting out unfinished work that no editor can reject?

 

Personally, I think it's krazy money to buy a sketch for this kind of money. (And didn't somebody say that Dave Finch gets $400 for a SKETCH? If he knocked out one an hour -- and I'll bet he doesn't spend on an hour on a sketch -- forty hours a week, that's over $800,000 a year. Am I the only one that thinks that this is a stupid amount of money for the artist's effort?)

 

Most artists do commissioned work, too...so, if I miss a sketch at the con, I can get a finished piece when I get home. In less than ten minutes of 'net searching, I've discovered I can get commissioned work from Norm Breyfogle, Dave Hoover, Joe Prado and a lot of others for that $200 or less...and, personally, I think that's a better deal.

 

In any case, Mr. Wonderful has been well-paid, fans have other options, and I don't see that selling a sketch...if you somehow manage to find a buyer that's willing to pay more than your $200...is the height of selfishness.

 

Hal:

 

But is Mr. Wonderful charging that $200.00 because he wants to get paid, or is it because he's seen sketches he did for free (or maybe for a modest $20.00 charge) being sold on eBay FOR $200.00 and is trying to discourage flippers, who are using what has been, for decades, something that was done out of goodwill, not profit? It makes a very big difference.

 

See, I've talked with quite a few artists in my time and many of them have told me they'd love to be able to do the sketches free for fans, or if they charged make it something reasonable, but they have been burned by flippers (who always claim to be "big fans"). Heck, Andy Kuhn came on here and said as much, as to why he's started charging for sketches. His is not an isolated incident.

 

Then factor in that some artists have just stopped doing con sketches at all, because of how much the flippers have used them like an ATM. I know this is why Frank Cho pretty much never does any sketches at shows. Now, not only are the flippers denied, but so are the true fans. Is that right?

 

And despite all the excuses I've seen to defend the practice, none of them wash with me. Not just because there are other options that could be done to address those issues used to defend flipper practices, but because it always boils down to a selfish reason. None of those excuses look at the bigger picture. It doesn't talk about how such practices reduce artists to mere cogs for profiteering. It doesn't look at the fact that we all lose out, when artists just stop doing con sketches after getting burned over and over.

 

Was what I said harsh? Yeah, maybe a little, but then, the situation seems out of control. Maybe it is time to stop being passive and get a little hard. I don't think my being an artist's rep makes my perspective on this unique. Anyone who would look at this beyond just the "where's mine" attitude could see the damage being done. While some folks who don't get out to the shows might get a short-term benefit from sketch flippers, in the long run all of us lose out, either by artists who charge an arm and leg for a sketch (I agree, that there is no sketch, no matter how good, that is worth over $100.00), or by them just quitting on doing them altogether.

 

There are other ways to get sketches to fans who can't make the shows, without letting flippers ruin a good thing for everyone. And there are many artists who would love to do free sketches again, if they knew the people getting them were fans and not mercenaries looking for a fast back off their gesture of goodwill.

 

If the practice of flippers were made unprofitable, then you'd see very few artists who'd ask you for $200.00 (or more) for a sketch. And it can be done. Fans just need to show a little bit of intelligence, sense of community and self-control (the last one being the MOST important). And that can only happen, if they stop thinking only of themselves. They need to stop seeing con sketches as just another piece of art and see it for what it truly is: a personal connection to that moment in time between you and that artist. A treasured keepsake, that embodies the goodwill and respect, between fans and artists.

 

If you don't care about sketches or the artists, then don't get them. Leave them for the true fans who will appreciate them for what they represent. Don't ruin a good thing for everyone else, just because you want to make a buck off of an artist's desire to show their appreciation to the fans.

 

But that's just MY opinion, I could be wrong.

[Pryte Quarlo-migration]

Wot, no love for Flipper???

 

[vodou]

such practices reduce artists to mere cogs for profiteering

 

James, I've followed your statements over on Comicart-L and more of the same here. Your points are clear but ignore one rock solid fact - Artists and their art have always been cogs for profiteering. Along with pretty much everything else. Tools to generate profit. At least in the Western world.

 

As long as capitalism is the dominant economic model, the very model encourages creative enterprise (aka flipping). Speculation, arbitrage advantage, etc. etc. will always happen when the model rewards buying low and selling high in the shortest possible span of time. Further there's really no such thing as "moral capitalism". Try as we might (as a society) to legislate this into existence it's not ever going to be a reality. Create a new moral law to reign in some of the greed and immorality of trade and some young whippersnapper with a freshly minted MBA will find a loophole or fifty to get around it and be amply rewarded come bonus time.

 

Alternatives to this model are socialism and communism, or various "-archies". All with serious detractions. You know, like the caste system.

I think all of us over the age of 30 know that Utopia doesn't exist and never will. That doesn't mean we shouldn't each in our own way try to be better people/citizens on a daily basis but maybe it's time to see things for what they are too?

 

The only reason artists are pissed is because they "know" about flipping due to the transparency (or efficiency) of eBay listings. Basic economics tell you that over time The Market (or any market, in this case sketches, OA, etc.) becomes more efficient. The Internet and eBay have made our market hyper-efficient. You can buy something at 1pm and list it on eBay at 1:01pm (laptop with wireless internet) from the convention floor. I can see how that would somebody off. But it's always happened. In the past, when the market was less efficient, deals occured over longer periods of time via telephone, CBG listings, fax, dealer catalogs, etc. But those free sketches were still sold.

 

Market efficiency is actually a good thing. It levels the playing field among buyers, seller and competitors.

 

In the dark old days, pre-Internet, dealers held most of the knowledge and the learning curve was steep with overpricing, misinformation, and outright scams. We didn't know what the true supply was, and the dealers always lied about what the demand was artificially forcing prices much higher. Lots of fakes, lots of cash only deals. (What percentage of your collection was/is funded with credit cards? Not an option pre-2000) Lots of paying through the nose back then, with no return policy, no PayPal to enter claims to, etc.

 

So the Internet offers our market:

 

1. tons of free research - chat groups, direct artist contact, price trending

2. instant gratification - make a deal and use PayPal

3. less gouging by middlemen (really and truly)

4. lower prices on many things

 

But all those efficiencies don't come free. To get something (a lot of valuable somethings in my opinion) you've got to give something up. As prices have levelled some formally "cheap" things (free or discounted sketches) have risen in price to their correct market level. But the good news is some formally very expensive things (most OA) have also dropped in price.

 

Now this is relative to the overall rise in OA value. Of course most OA is much more expensive than it was 10-15 years ago. But if the dealers still exclusively controlled the market you could just add an extra zero to the price of EVERYTHING. In other words everybody used to price like Albert Moy

 

The truth of it is that there's no such thing as a FREE sketch anyway. Again our economic model puts a price on everything, even time. This is called opportunity cost or the cost of doing x instead of y with your precious resources (time, airfare, hotel, wear/tear on your sneakers walking the floor, food, health - eating crappy con food instead of tofu and vegges!)

 

Only because we live in a rich economy do we casually "waste" our resources (time and money) getting sketches ("free" or otherwise). Go to a slum shantytown in Africa. Bring Jim Lee and Mike Mignola along and set up a table at one end of town with "free" sketches and another table at the other end of town with "free" food. Which line will be longer? How many sketches (or food) will end up on eBay? I'm thinking that Jim and Mike will leave with sunburns and still-full sketchpads.

 

While it's easy to disagree with the dominant economic theory (that "pays" everybody on this board - tangibly and intangibly) in relation to sketches, I'd say your argument would find more appeal if you first extracted yourself from enjoying so many of rewards of living inside the capitalist model.

 

Otherwise you have to accept the necessary evils (Capitalism converts everything to a supply/demand/time curve) in tradeoff for the great benefits offered.

 

And before you say, yeah but I've lost my job (or my friends have, or whatever) and my house thanks to George Bush and greedy Wall Street, so capitalism made my life suck...That's just not true. Your life doesn't really suck until you're on the run from a despotic Warlord looking to chop your hands off for "stealing" water from "his" river.

[Meeley Man]

Wot, no love for Flipper???

 

 

Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

[innocuous]

CGC slabs sketch covers (such as Fallen Son). What is your opinion of this practice and the instant market for certifed sketches that this creates?

[comix4fun]

CGC slabs sketch covers (such as Fallen Son). What is your opinion of this practice and the instant market for certifed sketches that this creates?

 

 

Happy Birthday. (thumbs u

 

 

I haven't seen giant difference between raw and slabbed blank covers in terms of price. People are really buying the sketch so I don't know if having it slabbed makes any difference at all. To most art collectors (as opposed to collectors who collect comic and some art) it makes no difference at all.

 

C

[Mac Man]

I will say this however: I don't have the ability to always get access to the artists at conventions and being able to buy sketches from people online (i.e. here) enables me to purchase stuff I might otherwise have had to continue keeping on my wishlist. Maybe in this sense I am not helping the problem any, but I know I do appreciate being able to get these items which do produce that effect of connecting with the artist regardless of my being able to meet them. While the blatant flipping discussed is something I don't stand behind, I do appreciate people opening their collections to allow others to enjoy the art.