Problem with a dishonest Ebay comic dealer

[BassGMan]

Hello, I am stuck at home right now with a mild flu so I thought I would come here to vent a little. Merry Christmas everyone!!! This is my second post. My earlier post was entitled "So Frustrated with Ebay dealers" that I started several days ago. What I want to focus on here is a situation that I described briefly in my other initial post.

Over a month ago I bought an ASM #1 from a dealer claiming that the book was in 7.0 or better and described his feelings why that was so. He claimed that the book was untouched except for some minor wear. OK, so I paid for and recieved the book and it was a heavily professionally restored copy that looked APP 4.0 - 5.0 to me. He had a money back guarantee if not satisfied. Certainly I was not satisfied and for over a month now we have been battling back and forth, with him refusing to refund my money. I paid $2,325 plus shipping. He is coming up with ridiculous excuse after ridiculous excuse for why he won't refund my money. Everything from me "accidentally" tearing the book to lying about the condition and grading and restoration. Yes, I have sent him high quality scans and so on. He still wont budge. I do not want to mention his name publicly but if anyone is interested they can e-mail me at: sansc57803@verizon.net and I will mention names, as long as you promise not to publicize it. The guy is from the north-east US. I just don't want the guy to get even more unruly with me putting his name out there. So, after as much proof of my word as I can muster I called my SanFran big-wig corporate attorney first cousin for a little advice. He told me that I need to check out my state laws but I may be able to take the guy to small claims court even though he is in a different state. Of course then I would most likely need to hire a collection agency to collect from him, but that would be giving up about $700 in their usual 30% fee.

So, my idea was to contact some large dealer out of the 2003 Overstreet Annual price guide, one that is nationally known, with a full page or double page ad spread, and talk to them, and see if they have a resident "expert" on restoration issues. I could then send the book to this guy, with a little cash for his troubles, and then we would know once and for all if there is restoration on this book. Of course there is, but the seller refuses to acknowledge this and refuses to take my word for it. Certainly my first idea was to get it CGC graded and that would settle it, but of course this guy "does not believe in CGC" and thinks they rip people off with unreliable grading. CGC has heard of this guy, and know of him as a scammer. So, I know, I know maybe I should not have trusted this seller and so on in the first place. But the question is what to do now? Any other ideas out there? This guy refuses to even acknowlege my idea of sending the book to a non-CGC unbiased expert source. Short of small claims court is there anything else that I can do? Believe me, I have brought all evidence that I have to the guy already. Thank you------Sid

 

 

[Timely]

Well it looks like his mind was made up long before you even bid on his item, no refunds for anyone for any reason, I'm gonna get you sucka!

 

But seriously, you really should tell us his name if you feel there is "no hope" for getting your money back, whick it sounds like you are at that stage. Perhaps this board can help. If he is exposed here and we call [!@#%^&^] on him, he will realize in the end he will lose out more than he will gain by his acts of "insurection and sedition", and he might give you your refund.

 

If CGC knows this guy and has a reputation for cheating, you've already lost.

 

Timely

[comicwiz]

Get your refund. 100% of it. Don't settle for any conditions and don't waste any more precious time debating whether the book is restored or not. This is common stalling tactic.

 

If he doesn't budge, I would devote some serious time into filing a formal complaint with the Federal Trade Commission . Take some time to clearly establish this incident, according to the definitions outlined on the FTC website; ie. is this a case of fraud, a scam or an outright rip-off. Once you have done so, and file the complaint electronically, the advantage of filing with the FTC is that if they REALLY like your case, they may decide to pursue it independently of your own resources and means. In orther words, you may do a considerable amount of damage, while avoiding the cost of a legal case in a small claims court. Not to mention the possibility that someone else may have filed a report on this person already.

 

Best of Luck.

[shadroch]

I would start by posting the book here.There are a lot of people with tremendous resources on this forum and they might either recognize the book or be able to track down the previous sale of the book.If that is the case and the dealer knowingly bouht the book restored,it may change his tune.

Not that many of these books turn over every year so you might have a chance of tracking it down.

Some forumites might have a working relation with him and could act as an intermediary.

[kryptonitecomics]

How did you pay for the item, credit card, check, paypal etc. You may have some legal recourse for fraud if you used a credit card and the guy is not living up to a stated money back guarentee. I am also of the opinion that you should send the book off to CGC for grading, and then send him a scan of the book in the holder.

 

You say he refuses to even consider this option, but the way I see it you paid for the book, it's in your possession, and he refuses to give you your money back, so who is he to tell you what you can do with your book.

 

Legal costs might make taking the small claims road cost prohibitive, but I have no expertise in that area. Since you received the book your in a little bit of a pickle as you already know becuase of the his word against yours.

 

I was under the impression that Ebay had some sort of arbutration services for a very small fee. You might want to look into that and other avenues with Ebay itself, though again, you have no guarentees. I know Ebay has safe Harbor for fraud cases so taking scans of the book before and after CGC grading misht, and I mean might give you some leverage. If he does a lot of business on Ebay, then the thought of being kicked off might make him a little more willing to try to settle this situation. Even if you can't get a full refund, maybe you could go after a partial refund.

 

It doesn't sound like that's what your after, but right now the odds are not in favor of a full refund, so getting a partial refund, and having the book graded and then reselling it may net you some decent money towards the purchase of another copy. Sure you will probably take a loss, but you may have to cut you losses at this point, it's really your call.

 

I can say that the money you spent is about the right amount for a ASM #1 in the condition that you describe, minus the possible restoration. That's a differen't story, and would certainly devalue the book according to the type and amount of restoration.

 

How do you know the book is restored, can you post a scan? If possible PM me with the dealers name and I will let you know if I have had any dealings with this person. I have been buying and selling on Ebay for over 5 years and have dealt with all types.

 

I wish you luck and I apologize if I have stated the obvious with parts of my post, but I don't have a good grasp of all of the steps previously taken etc.

[Aces]

Yeah...

What shadroch said.

Post a large scan in the Silver-Age or Grading forum and after "seeing" how you were screwed over maybe we can give better advice.

 

I think it would only cost you $99 to get 3 subs from CGC by joining the CS, so that may be your best alliterative to get professional opinions on grade and restro.

 

$33 bucks is a good deal!

 

[fantastic_four]

So, I know, I know maybe I should not have trusted this seller and so on in the first place. But the question is what to do now?

 

No, you shouldn't have trusted him; don't buy raw books worth more than $500 from E-Bay unless the seller is a solid dealer with a business license and a vested interest in sustaining and business and not ticking customers off. Every excuse he's given you indicates he never intended to give anybody a refund, so sue his arse off or report him to the FTC, he deserves it. Your alternative is to chalk it up to experience and eat the cash.

[Aces]

I paid $2,325 plus shipping.

Now if you get a PLOD 7.0 from CGC you might get most of your money back.

 

GP says: MP (7.0) - $1,955.00

 

If you only have slight (P) you might get $2250.00

 

A Blue label 7.0 goes for $4500-$5000.

 

Submit to CGC and get a professional grade before deciding what to do.

 

I know selling and getting 80-90% of your money back doesn't help the cause of Justice, but it will help your wallet. Get your revenge by publicly exposing the bum right here after you sell it.

[MAULEMALL]

I would start by posting the book here.There are a lot of people with tremendous resources on this forum and they might either recognize the book or be able to track down the previous sale of the book.If that is the case and the dealer knowingly bouht the book restored,it may change his tune.

Not that many of these books turn over every year so you might have a chance of tracking it down.

Some forumites might have a working relation with him and could act as an intermediary.

I think the first people I would call would be the post office and see if you can get them involved.

Mail fraud is a big no no.

[fantastic_four]

I think the first people I would call would be the post office and see if you can get them involved.

Mail fraud is a big no no.

 

It's worth a shot, but I bet they don't get involved since the buyer received the item...whether the item was restored or unrestored and what the comparative values are of restored versus unrestored are hairs they're not qualified to split.

[BassGMan]

Thank you for all the information coming in. It is really helpful and I need to take some time to digest it. I may be willing to expose him here fully but I have to think about that for a while first. I don't want him coming back and sabotaging my future Ebay listings or making the situation any worse. I don't know that he would do this, but I don't want to take any chances. I will say now though that he is from Connecticut, his initials are GM, he claims to have inherited a large lot of very valuable gold and silver comics from his uncle, and currently has feedback of around 50. I will try to figure out how to post the ASM #1 scan on this board. That FTC idea sounds very intriguing. Thanks-----Sid

[BassGMan]

Hello, I just attached the scan to the post I listed right before this one. I hope I did it right and that the quality is good enough. If not I can e-mail a much higher quality scan that is not so compressed. The restoration is mostly around the edges, very apparent on the bottom left corner, the tip of the top left corner, and much of the right edge, in some places several inch long paint touch ups to as much as 1/2 inch deep. There may be new paper underneath this as well. I can see it easily but I am not a restoration expert by any means and do not know what goes into creating it. Basically, just look around the edge of the entire cover. It is made up of paint, or whatever those guys use to restore comics but you can see it easily as the original is made up of pixels and this "paint" is solid. On the back cover (not attached) there is an entirely replaced bottom left corner as well as two large "tape seals". Thanks----Sid

[BassGMan]

Hi, I just looked at my own scan that I attached above. The image in this format is not large enough or of high quality enough to really see the restoration although you may notice it a bit right above the "flame" on the right edge where the paint is a little off color. Also note the very top thin black line of the "web" (right top corner) extends all the way to the end of the page whereas on an original copy this line stops before the edge. If anyone wants a scan that is very easy to see, of both the front and back cover from my Miscrosoft Photo Editor files then please let me know at: sansc57803@verizon.net and I would be happy to e-mail them to you. -----Sid

[Aces]

Someone here can host the large scan (not me unfortunately) for you. Put a request to host a large scan of ASM 1 in the Silver-Age forum or the grading forum and I'm sure someone will volunteer. You can email them the scan(s) and you'll be in business.

[Jenna]

Someone here can host the large scan (not me unfortunately) for you. Put a request to host a large scan of ASM 1 in the Silver-Age forum or the grading forum and I'm sure someone will volunteer. You can email them the scan(s) and you'll be in business.

I'll host it if you like. I'll PM you (BassGMan) with my e-mail address.

 

Jak

[BassGMan]

Someone here can host the large scan (not me unfortunately) for you. Put a request to host a large scan of ASM 1 in the Silver-Age forum or the grading forum and I'm sure someone will volunteer. You can email them the scan(s) and you'll be in business.

I'll host it if you like. I'll PM you (BassGMan) with my e-mail address.

 

Jak

 

Jak was very generous in offering to host these scans for me and I sent him the high quality scans so that he can put them up. Thanks again Jak. ------Sid

[comicwiz]

That FTC idea sounds very intriguing. Thanks-----Sid

 

A few more helpful pieces of advice; if filing an FTC report, treat the case as an investment. Investment fraud is at the forefront of the FTC's most active claims these days (next to eBay, and third-party related services such as escrow). Being that there are certain nuances with treating a collectiable as an investment, make sure to be as explicit/convincing in stating your case, and In doing so, they may be more compelled to treat your case with the attention it deserves. Unfortunately, due to the high dollar amount, you really have very little choice but to treat this as a form of investment fraud.

 

There is one other resource that you might also want to look into. Back in the 80's, there was a North American network television program called "Fight Back with David Horowitz." Although the show is no longer televised or syndicated, apparently David and a group of advocacy groups on consumer rights continue to inform the public on scams, and provide helpful links and tips, and ways to avoid them. They are doing this in the form of an online information resource web site, appropriately named www.fightback.com. I have been through this site many times, and my feeling (although I have very little experience in submitting cases through the site) is that if a story interests the group of advocates that run this site, they may decide to either pick-up the story, exploit it through televised and broadcast media, or even pick up the legal bill or put you in contact with legal resources that may consider doing the work pro-bono, or at a reduced billing rate. I used a similar resource locally, through a television program called "Silverman Helps," and although there are some differences between the show, my situation, and its methods of dealing with consumer scams, their perspecitives are very similar in terms of fighting rip-off artists and scammers through whatever means available. I mention these examples mainly because the legal side of small claims court can be a very protracted, expensive process with very little reward, if any.

 

Best of luck with your situation, and let us know how this turns out.

[shadroch]

A case like this crys out for - JUDGE JUDY. It would be a win-win. You'd both get paid and you'd most likely get to keep the book.

[Jenna]

Jak was very generous in offering to host these scans for me and I sent him the high quality scans so that he can put them up. Thanks again Jak. ------Sid

 

My pleasure, Sid. Here are the scans (I didn't do them inline since they are so large and would slow the loading of the thread):

 

Front Cover (460K)

Back Cover (390K)

 

Here are the notes Sid also asked me to post with the scans

 

Cover:

First off "the ding" which is at the bottom left is coincidentally on a restored corner and you can see the blue-grey paint very easily as compared to the natural pixels. Same thing with more paint along the spine and mostly under the Human Torch just right along the edge and maybe 1/4 inch wide, as well as the very tip of the top left corner. Right side of cover: you can see paint coming down from the top corner all the way down to the number "2" in the circle and then lower a very obvious piece of paint on the edge right above the flame. There may very well be new paper under this paint as there is white paint covering these same spots on the inside of the cover. The rest of the flaws are just chipping on the top and bottom edge of the cover but there is also a tiny hole directly under the "S" in Spider-Man. Some of the chipping and wear are expected in the grade advertised and that was expected, but certainly not the restoration.

 

Back Cover:

First and foremost the bottom left corner is completely replaced. About one inch by one inch or maybe more. It is harder to see than the cover as it is white (much easier to see in person). Notice how sharp this fake corner is. Certainly does not match the wear of the rest of the book. The back spine has alot of paint on the bottom and up about two inches, then dotted from spot to spot up from that. Notice the center of the cover to the left of the red letters "Here's Why You'll Make Money" as well as over the left brown shoe that the guy is holding on the suitcase. You will see what looks like tears or rips. I did not want to put pressure on the staples and scan the interior but from the inside these have been repaired as well. The tears have been sealed somehow with a non-existing type of tape. Hard to describe but there is some kind of substance that sealed these tears. Other than that, from what I can see is general wear around the edges.

 

"GM", I hope you will now be able to see for yourself what I have been talking about. There is much restoration on this comic and most likely more that I have not noticed. I did not even try to look at any of the interior pages for any restoration. -------Sid

[Timely]

What a restored POS!

 

Timely