How Hard will the Avengers Market CRASH & when?

[supapimp]

crashes on keys will never happen. stabilize? yes.

[cheetah]

I think the market for Avengers is motivated to some extent by the current popularity of the series. Just like SA X-men are valuable now, but worthless when published, the enthusiasm for the modern title affects the SA and BA market.

 

That, and the fact that the Avengers market is seen as THE hot title. Which is kinda funny when you realize just how shallow the HG Avengers-buyer pool really is.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Avengers 16, New team?

Avengers 71, first Invaders?

 

Compared to Daredevil, Avengers are a cornucopia of keys. Sgt Fury too ya know?

 

X-men pre 93 isn't exactly key heavy.

 

Xmen 1 v Avengers 1

Xmen 12 &14 v Avengers 4

Xmen 35 v Avengers 11

Xmen 28 v Avengers 57

X-men 66 v Avengers 71

X-men 51-65 v Avengers 93-100

 

Thank you for confirming what I have always said.. X-Men were TRASH before the BA

 

You tryin to start a fight or sumthin!!

I knew you would read that and say something. Thats why I wrote it.

 

How have you been Casey

 

Ok. saving more than I'm spending. The wife and I are headed to Paris for a week of much needed vacation tomorrow. How are you and the family? Getting any sleep yet?

Baby sleeps all night, every night Once he hit 2 months it was smooth sailing.

 

Good to hear you and the wife are taking a vacation. I am sure she is thrilled.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

crashes on keys will never happen. stabilize? yes.

I dont remember stating any crashes, but that the books would settle in at a different value. Books like AV1 and 4 flew under radar a long time, same as TOS39 and Hulk 1. Now those books can not be had at guide prices in mid to hg.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

While I may not be known as a Golden Age dealer I do have some insight into the market.

 

I've found that the VG/VG+ Timely Market has always been hot. Books in the $300-$500 price range do very well. Higher Grade timely's generally take a bit longer to sell and as I've told a couple of collector's who pursue them it's not a good idea to be known as the High grade Timely guy looking for books. You will suddenly become every dealers best friend. It's better to be flying under the radar than above it.

 

Mark Frantz was the "Timely guy" at one time. When he sold his timely's I believe the mantle was passed to Dan Bennett who passed away a few years ago. When Richard got his collection to sell Richard Evans was everybody's buddy. He used to have posse's hanging out at his booth. Now that their gone he's left with Billy Parker .

 

To use Silver Age as a comparison I feel that Captain America's are like Spidey's, Marvel Mystery sell like FF's. Schomburg covers rule. Secondary titles to me are Human Torch, USA Cap covers, All Select, All Winners and Sub-Mariner. While Marvel #1 is a great book I tend to feel the guide accurately reflects it's value where the guide does not accurately reflect the real value of a Action #1.

 

DC Gold has much better page quality than Timely's do. Offwhite or better Timely's are much harder to find than their DC equivalents.

Pretty much what I have been trying to say. But right now those VG/VG+ MMC and Caps are selling a bit higher due to the demand. You explained the other Timely books with perfect reference

[ciorac]

The ramp up of SA Avengers 1 and 4 may be a spike up then down or just a leveling off. My question is what will happen to Cap GA books.

 

These are already as hot as can be among GA collectors. My thought related to movie affect is where AV 1 & 4 will probably either level off or go down, I think that GA Caps will either remain level or go even further up. Specifically the GA keys like 1, 3, classic covers, Schomberg WWII covers, and the Weird Tales issues.

So from a speculative POV and at FMV, I'd buy an unrestored GA cap before I bought any of the Avengers. Harder to find sure, but not impossible if you have a range of books you might want.

Timelys in general have been hot for awhile. They will cool down eventually just like everything else. Personally speaking I would grab some Sub-Mariners, and Torch books before MMC and Cap. Just because of the current state of them as the "shiny object". Most the people I have seen buying these books will be tired of them within 6 months.

 

 

Pat, Timely books apparently (acc to a few old timers) have always been hot just like SA Marvels.

MMC and Cap you mean.

 

I could not BELIEVE how many times Subby, Torch, and the other less noteworthy titles have been offered for sale here to either not sell or be steeply discounted.

 

And Roy. You are hands down a biased opinion. You have far too much to lose with those books.

 

When I got into the GA collecting last year I watched very closely. Timely's had REALLY started going CRAZY. Im not saying they were "cold" they are expensive and desireable by many collectors. But alot of these books seemed to have a pool of buyers that really exploded onto the scene.

 

Pat, is your reading comprehension down today?

 

I'm going to tell you straight :censored:ing up that I'm getting pretty tired of always being told I'm biased. It bugs me because it shows me that in this case you didn't even read what I wrote. You simply replied with a reflex thought.

 

My statement made references to old timers. Not my opinion.

 

Ask Ciorac his opinion. He was a BSD for decades. His words: No matter how much the guide went up, Timelys continued to sell for over guide. He's a DC guy so his opinion isn't biased.

 

I happen to love Silver Age and Bronze Age Marvels. That is my first love. I made a conscious decision to sell most of my collection off and collect low to mid grade TImely.

 

Why?

 

Less volatile.

 

actually, I think i just read an old market report by ponseti? from the early 90's that stated Timely's were "hard" to sell at guide

 

Maybe that's because Parker was my main buyer in those days, and he always beat me up on the prices

 

 

I can tell you this with utter certainty. They've (Caps and MMs) have ALWAYS been good sellers for me and all the dealers I know. I set up at every major con in the country for a long time, and if I had 'em dealers would buy 'em before the collectors even got there. I resisted raising prices on them, stupidly I guess, but eventually I had to.

 

When I brought a large cache of mid to mid-high grade Timely's to Wonder Con in 1995 we did six figures in sales in two days. 80% of that was Timely sales. We had them priced very strong, but away they went.

 

So Roy is correct, that even a DC head like myself will admit that you are safer investing in Caps and MMs than you are in Adventures and post Robin Detectives for example. Pre-Robin Tecs have always held their own too.

 

My point about SA Marvel keys, is that they too have always sold extremely well for me and the dealers I know. Particularly in low to mid grade. No matter how many Avengers #1's I had in stock at the stores, they all would sell. Sure, not for big bucks, but typically around guide. It'll never reach AF 15 money or FF 1 money, but it shouldn't.

 

The collector base for Marvel SA is much larger than that for GA of any kind. So, if you have that many more buyers, then you certainly have a better shot of finding one for your SA keys, in just about any grade, and at your price if you shop it right and have a little patience.

[supapimp]

crashes on keys will never happen. stabilize? yes.

I dont remember stating any crashes, but that the books would settle in at a different value. Books like AV1 and 4 flew under radar a long time, same as TOS39 and Hulk 1. Now those books can not be had at guide prices in mid to hg.

 

wasn't directed towards you, you just happened to be the last person to post when i hit reply.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

crashes on keys will never happen. stabilize? yes.

I dont remember stating any crashes, but that the books would settle in at a different value. Books like AV1 and 4 flew under radar a long time, same as TOS39 and Hulk 1. Now those books can not be had at guide prices in mid to hg.

 

wasn't directed towards you, you just happened to be the last person to post when i hit reply.

Oh, sorry about that then

[kimik]

Avengers #1 has apparently pulled back based on recent auction/internet sales I have seen. After the brief run up in Jan/Feb that prices have come down a bit, and will likely stay at this level for the time being until closer to a movie. Let's just say that the last two copies I had took longer to move than expected, and I took a small loss on one.

 

Avengers #4 prices seem to have stabilized now as well.

 

You saw a lot of copies being snapped up in Jan - Mar, and once that initial wave of buyers/speculators passed the demand and price had to come down. I personally think that the Jan or Feb Clink auction was the main driver of this (especially for me buying a couple of extra speculation copies ) when the 4.0 copy went for $1200+ and the 4.5 copy went for close to $1900. After that initial speculation, prices came down quite a bit relatively speaking.

 

 

[supapimp]

Avengers #4 prices seem to have stabilized now as well.

 

You saw a lot of copies being snapped up in Jan - Mar, and once that initial wave of buyers/speculators passed the demand and price had to come down. I personally think that the Jan or Feb Clink auction was the main driver of this (especially for me buying a couple of extra speculation copies ) when the 4.0 copy went for $1200+ and the 4.5 copy went for close to $1900. After that initial speculation, prices came down quite a bit relatively speaking.

 

 

WOW! i need to get my copy back from CGC soon or it's going to be held till more movie speculation.

[VintageComics]

So Roy is correct, that even a DC head like myself will admit that you are safer investing in Caps and MMs than you are in Adventures and post Robin Detectives for example. Pre-Robin Tecs have always held their own too.

 

This is just for Pat.

 

 

 

 

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

So Roy is correct, that even a DC head like myself will admit that you are safer investing in Caps and MMs than you are in Adventures and post Robin Detectives for example. Pre-Robin Tecs have always held their own too.

 

This is just for Pat.

 

 

 

 

 

Hot vs. steady sales? And Bill totally missed the whole point, which is why I hadnt commented. But feel free to go on

[Old Fashion PB and J]

The ramp up of SA Avengers 1 and 4 may be a spike up then down or just a leveling off. My question is what will happen to Cap GA books.

 

These are already as hot as can be among GA collectors. My thought related to movie affect is where AV 1 & 4 will probably either level off or go down, I think that GA Caps will either remain level or go even further up. Specifically the GA keys like 1, 3, classic covers, Schomberg WWII covers, and the Weird Tales issues.

So from a speculative POV and at FMV, I'd buy an unrestored GA cap before I bought any of the Avengers. Harder to find sure, but not impossible if you have a range of books you might want.

Timelys in general have been hot for awhile. They will cool down eventually just like everything else. Personally speaking I would grab some Sub-Mariners, and Torch books before MMC and Cap. Just because of the current state of them as the "shiny object". Most the people I have seen buying these books will be tired of them within 6 months.

 

 

Pat, Timely books apparently (acc to a few old timers) have always been hot just like SA Marvels.

MMC and Cap you mean.

 

I could not BELIEVE how many times Subby, Torch, and the other less noteworthy titles have been offered for sale here to either not sell or be steeply discounted.

 

And Roy. You are hands down a biased opinion. You have far too much to lose with those books.

 

When I got into the GA collecting last year I watched very closely. Timely's had REALLY started going CRAZY. Im not saying they were "cold" they are expensive and desireable by many collectors. But alot of these books seemed to have a pool of buyers that really exploded onto the scene.

 

Pat, is your reading comprehension down today?

 

I'm going to tell you straight :censored:ing up that I'm getting pretty tired of always being told I'm biased. It bugs me because it shows me that in this case you didn't even read what I wrote. You simply replied with a reflex thought.

 

My statement made references to old timers. Not my opinion.

 

Ask Ciorac his opinion. He was a BSD for decades. His words: No matter how much the guide went up, Timelys continued to sell for over guide. He's a DC guy so his opinion isn't biased.

 

I happen to love Silver Age and Bronze Age Marvels. That is my first love. I made a conscious decision to sell most of my collection off and collect low to mid grade TImely.

 

Why?

 

Less volatile.

 

actually, I think i just read an old market report by ponseti? from the early 90's that stated Timely's were "hard" to sell at guide

Well, good to know I am not talking out my arse then..

 

They are HOT now, began heating up a while ago. And may settle back in.

 

Again I did not say poor performers, or not in demand. But the books are HOT now. Steady sales vs. a feeding frenzy. So please do go on since I dont think that Bills post made any mention of how Timely books are selling now, compared to his days as a dealer.

[VintageComics]

So Roy is correct, that even a DC head like myself will admit that you are safer investing in Caps and MMs than you are in Adventures and post Robin Detectives for example. Pre-Robin Tecs have always held their own too.

 

This is just for Pat.

 

 

 

 

 

Hot vs. steady sales? And Bill totally missed the whole point, which is why I hadnt commented. But feel free to go on

 

Pat, you said Timely books are hot now. I say that they have always been hot.

 

As far as I can remember in my 20-25 years of watching comic prices (except for the mid 90's) They have always been hot.

 

That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not really trying to spin the conversation.

 

R.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

So Roy is correct, that even a DC head like myself will admit that you are safer investing in Caps and MMs than you are in Adventures and post Robin Detectives for example. Pre-Robin Tecs have always held their own too.

 

This is just for Pat.

 

 

 

 

 

Hot vs. steady sales? And Bill totally missed the whole point, which is why I hadnt commented. But feel free to go on

 

Pat, you said Timely books are hot now. I say that they have always been hot.

 

As far as I can remember in my 20-25 years of watching comic prices (except for the mid 90's) They have always been hot.

 

That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not really trying to spin the conversation.

 

R.

My point was hot vs. steady sales. Im not saying Timely MMC or Cap sit on displays. But recently they have been fairly easy over guide books, which is again evidence of being hot. Being able to sell at guide is good, being able to get another 25% is better and an indicator that the book is Hot as hell.

 

Has been my point all along. And my other point was that if you buy at guide, and decide to sell to a dealer he will offer much less. If the dealer knows the book is hot and will command an extra percentage you can at least break even.

[VintageComics]

So Roy is correct, that even a DC head like myself will admit that you are safer investing in Caps and MMs than you are in Adventures and post Robin Detectives for example. Pre-Robin Tecs have always held their own too.

 

This is just for Pat.

 

 

 

 

 

Hot vs. steady sales? And Bill totally missed the whole point, which is why I hadnt commented. But feel free to go on

 

Pat, you said Timely books are hot now. I say that they have always been hot.

 

As far as I can remember in my 20-25 years of watching comic prices (except for the mid 90's) They have always been hot.

 

That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not really trying to spin the conversation.

 

R.

My point was hot vs. steady sales. Im not saying Timely MMC or Cap sit on displays. But recently they have been fairly easy over guide books, which is again evidence of being hot. Being able to sell at guide is good, being able to get another 25% is better and an indicator that the book is Hot as hell.

 

Has been my point all along. And my other point was that if you buy at guide, and decide to sell to a dealer he will offer much less. If the dealer knows the book is hot and will command an extra percentage you can at least break even.

 

...and Bill's words were that no matter how hi guide went up they always sold over guide.

 

That may not be the case now for the bigger keys but rest of the books are and have been over guide books.

 

I sold my Lloyd Jacquet Subby #18 CGC 8.5 for 1.5 times guide a while back. It's a "nothing" book. Not highest graded, not a key.

 

They are just and have been the "shiney objects" for more than just a short spell.

[thirdgreenham]

Will you two just give it a rest, please?

[VintageComics]

Will you two just give it a rest, please?

 

I prefer it when you mask.

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Im tired of this debate Roy. you are right Timely book are the most solid investments on earth, they never cool off just get hotter by the day. There was no period in the past few years where the books really started booming and I know absolutely nothing. What was I even thinking..

 

Seriously. You have taken almost everything I have said and twisted until it suited your needs. You win ok? I have learned a lesson today, do not try to engage in any discussion with Roy... You need only to listen.

[Mr.Diggler]

Im tired of this debate Roy. you are right Timely book are the most solid investments on earth, they never cool off just get hotter by the day. There was no period in the past few years where the books really started booming and I know absolutely nothing. What was I even thinking..

 

Seriously. You have taken almost everything I have said and twisted until it suited your needs. You win ok? I have learned a lesson today, do not try to engage in any discussion with Roy... You need only to listen.