Showcase #4 - shifting preferences? BB28 the "new" 1st SA DC?

[dam60]

It seems that as of late there have been a bunch of Showcase 4s that have been hitting ebay for stupid prices and not moving. Furthermore, I can't think of any really super duper sales. I know that Metro has THE 9.4 and Mark Wilson had/has a 9.2 but running the gamut of condition, this book doesn't sem to have legs. Or does it? Every other SA key seems to have new highs being continually reached, this book seems to be a tough sell. What I am thinking is perhaps the "new" definitive SA book for the DC collector has become the BB 28. That book seems to sell briskly for a premium in ALL grades where the S4 seems to be sitting around. Is Flash not the character he once was? Has the preference moved to the start of the SA with BB 28 vs. a S4? Why are so many people looking to unload this book now?

 

Thoughts?

 

DAM

[fantastic_four]

I'm not a big DC guy so my knowledge of its history is shaky, but Showcase 4 appears to be much less significant than an Amazing Fantasy 15 to me. It's not a first appearance, the character is nowhere near as popular as Spider-Man, and while the Flash comic is still in print, I don't recall hearing it being that great a seller. Looking at this months' Diamond "top 100 list" it's sitting at #62 whereas Spidey is still going strong with four separate issues devoted to him sitting in the top 20.

 

It's still got legs because of the short supply, but is the demand still there? DC people pipe in...as a beginning DC collector BB 28 seems more desirable since it features all the greatest DC characters coming together into DC's greatest super-group.

[Timely]

It seems that as of late there have been a bunch of Showcase 4s that have been hitting ebay for stupid prices and not moving. Furthermore, I can't think of any really super duper sales. I know that Metro has THE 9.4 and Mark Wilson had/has a 9.2 but running the gamut of condition, this book doesn't sem to have legs. Or does it? Every other SA key seems to have new highs being continually reached, this book seems to be a tough sell. What I am thinking is perhaps the "new" definitive SA book for the DC collector has become the BB 28. That book seems to sell briskly for a premium in ALL grades where the S4 seems to be sitting around. Is Flash not the character he once was? Has the preference moved to the start of the SA with BB 28 vs. a S4? Why are so many people looking to unload this book now?

 

Thoughts?

 

DAM

 

It's quite simple actually, look in the price guide. Showcase #4 is #38,000 and B&B #28 is only $7500! Showcase #4 has topped out while B&B #28 has much growth potential. It should easily be $12,000 in the guide right now, IMO!

 

Timely

[dam60]

I'm not a big DC guy so my knowledge of its history is shaky, but Showcase 4 appears to be much less significant than an Amazing Fantasy 15 to me. It's not a first appearance, the character is nowhere near as popular as Spider-Man, and while the Flash comic is still in print, I don't recall hearing it being that great a seller. Looking at this months' Diamond "top 100 list" it's sitting at #62 whereas Spidey is still going strong with four separate issues devoted to him sitting in the top 20.

 

It's still got legs because of the short supply, but is the demand still there? DC people pipe in...as a beginning DC collector BB 28 seems more desirable since it features all the greatest DC characters coming together into DC's greatest super-group.

 

If possible I would really like to have this as more of a DC slant because I would say that FF #1 is the "true" first SA marvel book. Furthermore, I think that that still holds its place of prominence and still sells briskly over guide in all conditions.

 

For DC, I remember hearing that Det 225 - the first Martain Manhunter was a book that used to have some acclaim as the 1st DC SA book. Yet Showcase #4 won out. Now, personally wouldn't a collector rather have the first gathering of those charaters in the BB 28 than an invidual first SA (not even true "first" in the case of the flash). Going forward, I can see both the Tec 225 (though not so much as that book is just really completely impossible. I NEVER see that book and have only seen one copy with my own two eyes in my life) and the Showcase #4 losing ground value wise to the BB 28.

 

What do you guys think?

 

DAM

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

What do you guys think?

 

Well, I am an affirmed Marvel zombie, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I always felt that Showcase # 4 was "pushed" into prominence by Overstreet and its advisors, and that by itself, it was not as significant as the hype made it out to be.

 

Afterall, weren't Wonder Woman, Bat Man and Supes still around in the mid 50s? It's not like DC Superhero continuity altogether disappeared after most of the second tier characters were fazed out in the late 40s. And really, since those three did survive, could those that didn't (Flash, Hawkman, Sandman, etc.) be considered anything other then second tier characters? So the Flash reappeared in a slick outfit? Big deal.

 

I would agree with you that B&B # 28 is a much more important book, if for no other reason, then it began to tie together DC's Silver Age superhero continuity and laid the foundation for its universe to take off in the 60s. Of course, it also influenced Jack & Stan to come up with something comparable, thus the FF were born.

 

.

 

 

[Rocketeer]

I'm not a big DC guy so my knowledge of its history is shaky, but Showcase 4 appears to be much less significant than an Amazing Fantasy 15 to me

 

Without a Showcase #4 there probably never would have been an Amazing Fantasy #15...don't forget super-hero comics were just about dead in the water before DC started their "Second Bonanza of Super-Heroes" starting with the Flash,...and Marvel had all but lost their distributes and were at the the mercy of DC to distribute the few titles they had left....as far as BB #28 being more popular it probably is more so now than Showcase #4 for a number of reasons...

 

 

First off it's a much more affordable option than Showcase #4 and much more available in low to mid grade....the cover is totally awesome compared to the rather lame Showcase #4...and more importantly it's a milestone because it represents an anchor in the DC silver Age line of books,...it shows that they were now strong enough to bring all these second string characters together as they did in the past with the Golden age Justice Society in All Star....

 

IF BB #28 wasn't such a success we wouldn't see a lot of what you Marvel-heads take for granted....like the Fantastic Four ( Which Stan Lee admits was his answer to the the JLA) or the Avengers.....

 

So maybe Showcase #4 was the book to start the Silver Age ,..but BB #28 was the book that solidified it and launched what was yet to be the future of both DC and Marvel for the 60's and 70's.

 

[Rocketeer]

I always felt that Showcase # 4 was "pushed" into prominence by Overstreet and its advisors, and that by itself, it was not as significant as the hype made it out to be.

 

Good point,...the thing was DC never completely stopped their super-hero line like Timely/Marvel/Atlas did....so they did have to make a decision on what the first book was that started the Silver Age in a continuum of a downward spiraling Golden Age after-math....and at the the time Showcase # 4 seemed the logical choice,...Detective #225 could never hold the title because J'onn J'onnz never really caught on as a major DC character and was never even utilized as a key JLA figure....

[JohnBull]

I don't think the slant for 'Tec 225 was ever that great, some people lauded Strange Adventures 9 as well. Showcase 4 is historically important with hindsight, although it took several years for what we know as the SA to really take off. The issue got caught up in the general rise that went with the whole Showcase title, but Showcase overall hasn't really been hot for 5 years or more (although issues 8 and 9 are still in Overstreets top 10 SA).

 

Issue 4 is a biggie, good cover, good story/art and the whole book is Flash (as opposed to half a dozen odd pages of Martian Manhunter in Detective). I'd never be prepared to lay out the necessary money to pick a half way decent reader up, but I'd surely love one as would most DC people I think.

[Aman619]

Dam, I think Rocketeer and Timely nailed it for you. IMO, Showcase 4 peaked quite a while ago. It supplanted Tec 225 as the TRUE start of the Silver Age, and the price started to go up. so that a book that was considered extremely rare suddenly started appearing on every dealer's wall of books in San Diego. So much for its cahet relating to its "TRUE scarcity"!

 

To me, its still a key book, and I vote for it as the first SA book, but its price is so high, and its reputation as a hot collectible still so tarnished, that it just doesnt command much attention.

 

Also, I dont think Tec 225 is any harder to get than S#4....it just has even LESS appeal right now so it never comes up for sale.

[Rocketeer]

Tec #225 is a very hard book to find in high grade,...any DC's from 1952-1958 is hard to find in high grade,...and I blame Wertham for this,....there was so much hype in the mid 50's about comic books rotting kids brains that mom's didn't think twice about scooping them up with the trash when they cleaned their kiddies rooms up,....

[nearmint]

I think Timely is absolutely right. If interest has shifted away from Showcase #4 to BB #28, it's only because the Brave & the Bold is starting to look like a major bargain in comparison.

 

I don't think this diminishes the importance of Showcase #4 in the least. This book was DC's first attempt at recreating a character. Yes, Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman had continued printing throughout the 50's, but it was the recreation of character's like Flash and Green Lantern that reignited interest in superheroes. Let's face it, Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were stagnant at that point, and the introduction of J'onn J'onzz in Detective #225 didn't help.

 

B&B #28 may have never happened without the success of Showcase #4 and #22. And DCs success in recreating characters may have contributed to the recreation of The Human Torch in Fantastic Four, and the resurrection of Captain America in Avengers #4.

 

Anyway, Showcase #4 has a killer cover...

[Timely]

Both Action Comics #1 and Showcase #4 are comparable. Each book launched their prospective Ages. Naturally it took years for those Ages to be in full swing.

 

The Golden Age started with Action Comics #1. It was further helped by Superman #1 by it being the first comic with a print run of over 1 million and its concept of being the first comic entirely devoted to a single charactor. But the Golden Age did not really take off until 1940-1941.

 

The same holds true for the Silver Age. It began in 1956 with Showcase #4, was helped by Flash #105 and B&B #28, but did not really take off until 1960-1962.

 

Timely

[jduran1]

I agree that Showcase 4 is in a lull because it is a DC won't get its due regarding price in regards to comprable Marvels. Second it may be overpriced at this point in time due to the press, its status as the First SA book etc?. (The price ran up to quickly) So it may take a while for comparble books to catch up to it while it's pricing remains flat.

 

SC 4 was issued in 1956 and I also agree that the 1962 Amazing Fantasy 15 and the 1961 Fantastic Four may not have happened without SC 4. Of course that could be debated for days. It has that killer classic red cover thus only one 9.4 and one 9.2 exists as of this date. AF15 and FF41 have more high grade comics. The BB 28 is a 1960 book and may also been influenced by the SC 4?.

 

So my question to the forum is what other signifcant books came out between SC 4 and BB 28 that may extend this debate further.

 

And lastly given there are no 9.8 books of any of these issues if a FF 1 9.8, BB 28 9.8, AF15 9.8 or a SC 4 9.8 were for sale which book would command a larger multiple of their overstreet price. That is the question and is a determinant of which book is currently overpriced. So what would you buy and why.

[Rip]

Showcase 4 is still a very strong book. With little doubt the most expensive 9.4 silver age book. BB28 is a great book that is also very hard to find in NM. Im guessing many are looking at BB28 because it seems to be an ever harder book to track down in high grade than previously thought. The mkt also goes in waves trends. Currently BB28 seems to be the better deal. I wouldn't be shocked to see the 9.4 BB28 sell for close to 100k.

 

tec 225 is an even tougher book to find in high grade. The problem with Showcse is yes the prices are many times just plain too high to start with.

 

[Timely]

So my question to the forum is what other signifcant books came out between SC 4 and BB 28 that may extend this debate further.

 

The only book I see having an influence would be Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane #1. Her book came out in 1958 and was the first "Showcase" tryout to land it's own series. I suppose if Lois Lane #1 did terrible on the newstands they might not have attempted a Flash #105, Green Lantern #1 or JLA #1, expecting the same poor sales.

 

Timely

[Rip]

Yea LL was the first to win her own title from Showcase.

[Rocketeer]

The only book I see having an influence would be Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane #1. Her book came out in 1958 and was the first "Showcase" tryout to land it's own series. I suppose if Lois Lane #1

 

However the appeal and success to this book had more to do with the exposure and popularity of "The Adventures of Superman" television show than the Showcase trial itself,...so this is not really a good example...

[Timely]

I think it is a great example. Outside infuences aside, if Lois Lane only had a 20% sell through on the newstand other Showcase try-outs may never have happened, no matter what was going on in TV land. Luckily LL#1 did well (partially thanks to Superman and the TV show no doubt) and others soon followed.

 

Timely

[Rocketeer]

So my question to the forum is what other significant books came out between SC 4 and BB 28 that may extend this debate further.

 

I see Challenger's of the Unknown as a bigger influence,...not only did it appear earlier than Lois Lane in Showcase at issue #6 it was also the first original concept from DC in the Silver Age to get it's own title at just a month past Lois lane in April 1958....plus you can't ignore the fact that in many ways it was sort of a prototype for the fantastic four.

[FlyingDonut]

Just off the top of my head, DCs that are as influential as those two:

Flash 105

Flash 110

Flash 123

Showcase 22

Green Lantern 1