Showcase #4 - shifting preferences? BB28 the "new" 1st SA DC?

[PovertyRow]

Oops, I didn't realize Cap was so popular before I was born! I bow to your superior age knowledge.

 

Dag

Nab

Bit

[greggy]

Oops, I didn't realize Cap was so popular before I was born! I bow to your superior age knowledge.

 

Dag

Nab

Bit

[acesilver]

Great thread!

 

I agree. A well thought out thread. With persuasive arguments coming from several corners on alternatives to the generally accepted view of S4 as the start of the Silver Age.

 

I believe that Showcase 4 may be the ONLY DC Silver key that is fully valued in the Guide, if not slightly overpriced. It is so much more expensive than the next most valuable DC silver book. That, and the fact that once you get into 6 figures the universe of potential buyers for almost any silver age book decreases dramatically, is probably the main reason why no one is paying big multiples for it.

 

You, and several others who mentioned this fact, nailed it. Any comic with a pricetag of high five to six figures eliminates probably 95% or better of collectors. And how many dealers can, or would, spend that kind of $$ for a book they may be unable to flip for a long time? I'd guess that Metropolis having the 9.4 copy of Showcase is more for show, then dough, right now. Primarily a publicity item more than anything IMO. Who here thinks they'd get 6 figures for the book if they wanted to flip it 6 months from now? Just look at how long Mark Wilson has been unable to sell his 9.2 copy for this same book. With his asking price ranging, at various times, from $85,000+ to a little over $50,000. And last I checked he still hadn't been able to find a buyer.

 

B&B 28, on the other hand, is undervalued, along with every other major DC silver key. So if a really sharp copy comes along, it will probably sell at multiples and appear to be generating more interest than the Showcase 4. But I seriously doubt that a B&B 28 (except maybe in 9.8) would pierce the $100k barrier. (By the way, does anyone know who has the CGC 9.4 B&B 28?)

 

I'll second that last question. Does anyone know who has the CGC 9.4 B&B 28? That way I can ply them with bribes

 

I definitely agree that B&B 28 is undervalued. As Timely noted you've got S4 at $38,000 guide vs. B&B 28 $7500 both in 9.4. Both are unquestionably historically significant (regardless of how anyone wants to try and "rank" them), came out around the same timeframe, and have proven rare to find as the census indicates at 9.0 or better. Yet despite their nearly identical backgrounds S4 guides at a little over 5x B&B 28??? Doesn't compute. So the smart money goes where there is more upside potential. Thus, B&B is the MUCH greater value buy right now. And will be for some time since the big O won't bridge that kind of price gap any time soon.

 

In my opinion, Showcase 4 marks the beginning of the Silver Age. Getting biblical for a second, SC 4 begat Flash, which begat JLA, which begat Fantastic Four, which then jump-started the Silver Age. It is therefore the most important Silver Age book, or at least the most important Silver Age DC book. Whether it should command the highest price must take the demand component into consideration. JLA certainly seems to be more popular than solo Flash so I wouldn't be shocked if B&B 28 crept up on SC 4.

 

The point is very valid. Price and significance don't automatically equate. Although more often than not they tend to correspond to each other. Showcase 4, having received the notoriety of being considered the start of the Silver Age, generated a high demand that propelled its valuation accordingly. B&B is another key that if the demand continues the price will follow a similar path.

 

Marvel actually provides a good illustration of this dynamic. In my opinion, FF 1 is clearly more important than AF 15, because without a successful FF comic, there would be no Marvel age, Stan Lee would have continued writing the short stories found in the pre-hero Marvels, and there probably would be no Spider-man. For a long time, FF 1 was the most valuable Marvel, but AF 15 has blown past it because Spidey is Marvel's most popular and successful character and demand is greater.

 

And lest folks think that Action 1 has always indisputably been the most valuable comic, at various times credible dealers have advanced the notion that it should be Marvel Comics 1 (because Marvel became more successful than DC and this was the first Marvel) and then during the height of Bat-mania when the first movie came out, Detective 27 (because Batman was more popular and successful, ala the whole FF-Spidey dynamic). I remember one prominent dealer saying that the only reason Action 1 remained the most valuable comic was that the Milehigh Action 1 was in much better condition than the best known Tec 27, but if there had been a comparable copy of Tec 27, it would've sold at a higher price! Seems sacrilege today, and I'm not saying I agreed with any of those dealers, but it shows how nothing is set in stone, and things can change dramatically within the space of 10-15 years.

[shadroch]

Oops, I didn't realize Cap was so popular before I was born! I bow to your superior age knowledge.

 

To further lead this thread off-track (hate doing it but I'm not the one who started these interesting asides!! ) ...why did Timely and Cap/Sub-Mariner go under anyway? I still have to think that the anti-war trends of the 1960s and 1970s are what watered down the Silver Age Cap's popularity...Golden Age experts please correct me if you think I'm wrong.

 

Well that, and the fact that the book sucked monkey [!@#%^&^] in the 70s.

 

The Secret Empire Arc from 169-176,and the ensueing original Nomad storyline was some of the best of the era.

Cap from '73 to mid '75 was every bit as good as Starlins Captain Marvel or MOKF. IMO.

 

I've always suspected Vietnam had much to do with Caps relative lack of popularity.Yet another thing we can thank the French for.

 

[FlyingDonut]

Oops, I didn't realize Cap was so popular before I was born! I bow to your superior age knowledge.

 

To further lead this thread off-track (hate doing it but I'm not the one who started these interesting asides!! ) ...why did Timely and Cap/Sub-Mariner go under anyway? I still have to think that the anti-war trends of the 1960s and 1970s are what watered down the Silver Age Cap's popularity...Golden Age experts please correct me if you think I'm wrong.

 

Well that, and the fact that the book sucked monkey [!@#%^&^] in the 70s.

 

The Secret Empire Arc from 169-176,and the ensueing original Nomad storyline was some of the best of the era.

Cap from '73 to mid '75 was every bit as good as Starlins Captain Marvel or MOKF. IMO.

 

I've always suspected Vietnam had much to do with Caps relative lack of popularity.Yet another thing we can thank the French for.

 

Yeah, those were pretty good books. I'm thinking more of the hideous Kirby 'Madbomb" story and the subsequent idiocy that ran until Byrne came on board. Boy are those bad books.

[tth2]

The Secret Empire Arc from 169-176,and the ensueing original Nomad storyline was some of the best of the era.

Cap from '73 to mid '75 was every bit as good as Starlins Captain Marvel or MOKF. IMO.

 

I've always suspected Vietnam had much to do with Caps relative lack of popularity.Yet another thing we can thank the French for.

 

Yeah, those were pretty good books. I'm thinking more of the hideous Kirby 'Madbomb" story and the subsequent idiocy that ran until Byrne came on board. Boy are those bad books.

 

You said it bro'! Between Frank Robbins' horrific art (obscuring the excellent Snap Wilson/Cosmic Cube storyline) and then Kirby's horrific writing (and quite frankly mediocre art), Marvel seemed to be trying its best to kill off ol' Cap.

 

Steve Englehart's writing in the mid-70s was some of the best in comics. Starting from the "1950s Captain America" storyline (153-156, if memory serves) through the Secret Empire arc and finally ending with the Snap Wilson issues, it was some great stuff. And while Sal Buscema's art will never get anyone's pulse racing, it was good workman-like stuff.

 

I think the main reason Cap never got that popular was because he was too square for a lot of kids. The "cool kids" were always into the angst of Spidey or the totally different tangents of MOKF or Conan.

[minutekev@50]

A lot of people may associate the name 'Captain America' with the guy Peter Fonda played in Easy Rider....

[PovertyRow]

A lot of people may associate the name 'Captain America' with the guy Peter Fonda played in Easy Rider....

 

No - they knew it was a comic book character - good try though! Now go and do your own poll and report back!

[minutekev@50]

There's like one person in my office. And I don't think she knows...

[PovertyRow]

There's like one person in my office. And I don't think she knows...

 

What a copout. Take the question to the streets!

 

(just asking a guy I'm on the phone with if he had heard of Captain America - he said yes, and specified "comic books")

[Foolkiller]

I probably should have started another thread instead of hijacking Dave's. Anyway, most people that I know have heard and actually know what Cap looks like.

 

Cap though, has suffered through some abysmal storlines including the aforementioned second kirby run through til 247 (even 241, the Punisher issue, was lame outside the cover). Most of the Zeck drawn stories were good (particularly 275 and 286-88) until 300... Then from 301 til 332 the book was a little lame (unless you liked the Flag Smasher) with fairly boring stories. Then from 332-350 there was an excellent run of the "Cap No More" storyline... very entertaining. The Streets of Poison from 372-377 was good... but then the book hit it's all time low with the "Superia Stratgem", "Cap Wolf" and of course, Cap dies in his Cap armour.

 

But... with Waid and Garney... the book was excellent... until Rob Liefeld turned Cap into... something terrible... and then it was back to Waid and Garney.

 

Huge Cap fan, but his book is one that has had some very, very low moments.

[shadroch]

I'm a huge Cap fan with a nice run from TOS58 to 200.To save and collect from 200 up would just be a waste of time,space and money,imo. But he is far from alone in this regard.Supes, Bats,WW, and the JLA come to mind first,as books that were drek for years at a time. Anyone like WW with her mentor I-Ching. Or the JLA with te breakdancing bag-ladies? Just about any 30 cent Supes is pure drek.The FF had there low points and the entire Spectacular Spiderman could vanish without a trace.

Cap is,was,and will remain an American Icon. One who's influence may well transcend his popularity in comics.

[Aman619]

What influence are you speaking of? "Cap who?" may not be the man in the streets reaction to "Who is Captain America" but Id be surprised if "Who cares?" wasnt their next question. I like Cap as much as the next comics collector...but while many civilians have definitely heard of Cap, I think very few have ANY connection to him at all even with his many failed movie exposures etc. over the past 60 years.

[PovertyRow]

What influence are you speaking of? "Cap who?" may not be the man in the streets reaction to "Who is Captain America" but Id be surprised if "Who cares?" wasnt their next question. I like Cap as much as the next comics collector...but while many civilians have definitely heard of Cap, I think very few have ANY connection to him at all even with his many failed movie exposures etc. over the past 60 years.

 

I think the same could be said for Spidey, X-Men etc. the average person who is not a collector will have heard of the character but ask them a couple of questions like "Who are 3 of their main foes" and, aside from the recent movie memories of Green Goblin and Magneto, I bet they would be hard pressed to even come up with Doc Ock - at least until Spidey 2 comes out.

[shadroch]

What influence are you speaking of? "Cap who?" may not be the man in the streets reaction to "Who is Captain America" but Id be surprised if "Who cares?" wasnt their next question. I like Cap as much as the next comics collector...but while many civilians have definitely heard of Cap, I think very few have ANY connection to him at all even with his many failed movie exposures etc. over the past 60 years.

 

I can't speak for everywhere but both in the military,and the NYPD-NYFD, when someone does something heroic,he is often referred to as Captain America.Youthful recruits often get the nickname of Bucky.

Captain America has been referrenced numerous times in rock and roll,Hunter Thompson has used it often.

After the September 11th attacks,when Marvel put out that book on fallen heroes,it seemed the one image that got the most attention was the one of Cap kneeling with his shield broken.Even the newsmen knew Caps shield was supposed to be unbreakable.

[Foolkiller]

yeah, I definitely think that people are far, far underestimating Cap's popularity and notariety. I think a lot of people know who he is...

 

and if you're referencing who cares about any of these characters... I don't think anyone really cares about Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the X-Men or Spider Man either... but they have more mass media appeal.

 

I recognize that Cap is not on the same popularity level as superman and batman, those guys are on some other level, but to me, Cap is an "A" list character, just not on the same heights as the truly big two (and maybe three if you count spidey).

 

By the way shadroch, I recommend buying the trade compilations of the waid/garney run on Cap (especially the first two arcs) the art is clean, and waid does a real nice job there... I know you don't want the clutter, but I think those stories are some of the best in recent cap history.

[fantastic_four]

I recognize that Cap is not on the same popularity level as superman and batman, those guys are on some other level, but to me, Cap is an "A" list character, just not on the same heights as the truly big two (and maybe three if you count spidey).

 

They're on different levels, but on the same list? Sounds like a semantical argument.

[Foolkiller]

They're on different levels, but on the same list? Sounds like a semantical argument

 

you're probably right to a certain degree... I guess what I'm trying to say is that an "A" list character probably has a very wide spectrum. I don't think I could close that list to all but the mega popular characters with mainstream crossover coupled with movie success and/or incredible pop culture recognition.

[Timely]

I recognize that Cap is not on the same popularity level as superman and batman, those guys are on some other level, but to me, Cap is an "A" list character, just not on the same heights as the truly big two (and maybe three if you count spidey).

 

They're on different levels, but on the same list? Sounds like a semantical argument.

 

 

I would also argue that the Fantastic Four are top level characters. But ask non-comic people that they say, "Yes I have heard of the Fantastic four...sure!"

 

Ok then, who are the members of the Fantastic Four?

 

Reply, "Well...umm, there are four of them right? Uh...some flaming guy, umm... a rock-like dude...isn't there a chick in there too?"

 

Ask those same people about X-men and sure, they know of them. Ask them to name characters in the group and....!?!?

 

Timely

[Crowzilla]

Well...umm, there are four of them right? Uh...some flaming guy, umm... a rock-like dude...isn't there a chick in there too?

 

Yeah,

"Rock-man".

All the chicks like him because he's so sensitive.