PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[topofthetotem]

You mean like if they opened it and kept it after realizing it was a PGX slab?

 

This sounds like a slam.

 

 

It wasn't meant to.

 

Oh sorry, I didn't realize it was a random comment that just happened to line up precisely with the circumstances of this particular deal. My bad.

 

It was factual and directly related to the discussion at hand.

 

Joey and I have just discussed the entire incident via PM and everything is cool...between me and him, anyway.

 

Glad to hear it.

[bababooey]

I changed my mind. Seeing he had no problem posting the transaction PM everywhere and the mods seem reluctant to remove them I nominate Trey for selling PGX slabs on the CGC boards. Breaking rule #1 and being a repeat offender.

Selling PGX slabs on the CGC boards is wrong, no doubt about it, but the only damaged party is CGC who 'hosted' the sale of a book holstered by a competitor - the "transaction" isn't the problem.

 

I think Arch should give him a strike but I don't see anyone as a damaged party according to 5 a); everyone seemed to be a willing participant in completing the transaction as it played out until recently.

 

CGC deletes threads or issues strikes/bans when their guidelines are abused, the forum members have chosen to maintain a probation list using the PL/HOS rules. Arch's rule:

1.Books must be CGC or raw only, or items directly related to comics.

 

If only offering to sell a non-CGC slab is probation worthy then add it to the PL rules. A nomination based on only "selling PGX" isn't valid until the PL rules are updated to include it as a PL worthy offense unless ALL the rest of Arch's rules are worthy of permanent PL nomination (since there's no means of getting off the PL for selling a PGX slab)

 

the path is HOS not PL & this guy isn't worthy of that from what I have seen.

 

HOS and Probation List Rules

The following Probation List Rules are in effect beginning 8/1/2011. Over some period of time these may be modified or expanded.

 

1) The 30-Day Rule

a) If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List (hereafter called the PL)

 

b) If the transaction is agreed on by both parties to take longer than 30 days - for example, a transaction involving time payments over a longer time, the 30 day clock begins from the time the agreed upon conditions were violated.

 

c) The 30-day rule is suspended if the accused refuses to complete the transaction or if the transaction cannot be completed due to, for example, the item being sold to someone else.

 

d) A Transaction between board members is not confined to the CGC Message Boards. Any transaction between forum members, regardless of the venue, is eligible for inclusion in the PL.

 

2) Notification on the Probation Discussion Thread

a) After the 30 Day Rule is fulfilled, the accuser will send a PM to the accused informing them the issue is being submitted to the Probation Discussion Thread for their inclusion in the PL. This should be a new PM and not part of an existing PM chain.

 

b) After the PM is sent the accuser may submit the accused for inclusion in the PL via the Probation Discussion Thread.

 

c) The accuser should outline as completely as possible the circumstances surrounding the transaction in dispute. Where possible include hyperlinks to board transactions and contact attempts along with dates.

 

d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion.

 

e) If completing the transaction is no longer possible, the accuser may outline a proposed path to resolution.

 

3) Being Placed On The PL

a) After a 72-hour waiting period, if the accused does not respond they will be placed on the PL.

 

b) If the accused responds in the Probation Discussion Thread and it is determined the conditions of the transaction was not met, they will be added to the PL.

 

c) If the accused is not available during that 72-hour period and is placed on the PL, they are free to later respond in the Probation Discussion Thread and present their side.

 

d) If the accused has not responded in the Probation Discussion Thread but continues to post on the boards, a reply can be made informing them they are being considered for placement on the PL.

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

5) Probation List versus Hall Of Shame

a) The Probation List is for transactions that have not been fulfilled as promised.

 

b) The Hall Of Shame is for serious transgressions. For example, selling a book/books and sending nothing of value in the package. Interfering with someone's business. Being a multiple offender.

 

c) The Hall Of Shame candidate is subject to all of the above rules.

 

d) Inclusion in the Hall Of Shame must be decided by a poll.

 

e) Removal from the Hall Of Shame must be decided by a poll.

 

[Superman2006]

This is BS, Roy!

 

 

Fair enough. Every one sees things differently.

 

It's what makes the world go round.

 

With all do respect, you and Trey are the only ones that are seeing things differently. I am sure he appreciates your efforts though. I am not trying to be mean but, that's how I see it.

 

No problem.

 

Understand that I am not saying Trey is innocent, just that I understand why he thought it was ok, that I would have handled the situation differently and that the law cuts both ways.

 

Just like a double edged saw blade.

 

Trey knew it was against the rules to sell PGX books here, so he tried to scam people by cropping the scan, hiding the label & claiming it wasn't a PGX book.

 

Roy, at what point does the offenses become so egregious that you don't immediately jump to someones defense? I realize you don't like seeing a boardie pile-up, that you always have a soft spot for the underdog, but in this particular matter, you're stretching yourself so far to downplay the seriousness of the situation that it's almost insulting to those of us watching from the sidelines.

 

If Trey "operat[es] on a different psychological and mental level" than the rest of us, that's his problem, not ours - and it certainly doesn't mean that he deserves special treatment for behaviour that under any other circumstance would result in a righteous tarring & feathering.

 

Regarding bold part above: From my reading of his sales thread, I don't recall Trey claiming that it wasn't a PGX book. Unless you saw this in his thread for yourself, I'm guessing that this tidbid isn't really fact, but someone stated it and then has been repeated by others including yourself since then. Of course if you saw it for yourself, then I'll take your word for it.

 

Trey did crop the scan, but based on Aces' comments and from what I recall seeing in the past, this seems to be in line with what other sellers of PGX books have done in the past, and I don't recall them being trashed for it quite like Trey has been.

 

While I don't believe Trey mentioned that it was in another company's slab, like Aces suggested he & others might have done, given the cropped scan, the lack of "CGC" being denoted prior to his grade, and the pursuing comments in his thread, prior to Joey's I'll take it, it seemed pretty clear to me that it wasn't a CGC book (although there was obviously room for confusion, so I obviously don't fault Joey for not realizing that it wasn't a CGC book until he received it).

 

Of course I agree that Trey didn't handle everything in the best way after he started to get piled on, including his posting negative comments in Joey's feedback thread, or his threatening legal action (which I don't recall seeing anywhere for myself, but if JazzMan said that he did, then that's good enough for me). He's a bit socially awkward perhaps, but I really don't think he sold this book with the intent to deceive, at least IMHO.

[skypinkblu]

This is BS, Roy!

 

 

Fair enough. Every one sees things differently.

 

It's what makes the world go round.

 

With all do respect, you and Trey are the only ones that are seeing things differently. I am sure he appreciates your efforts though. I am not trying to be mean but, that's how I see it.

 

No problem.

 

Understand that I am not saying Trey is innocent, just that I understand why he thought it was ok, that I would have handled the situation differently and that the law cuts both ways.

 

Just like a double edged saw blade.

 

Trey knew it was against the rules to sell PGX books here, so he tried to scam people by cropping the scan, hiding the label & claiming it wasn't a PGX book.

 

Roy, at what point does the offenses become so egregious that you don't immediately jump to someones defense? I realize you don't like seeing a boardie pile-up, that you always have a soft spot for the underdog, but in this particular matter, you're stretching yourself so far to downplay the seriousness of the situation that it's almost insulting to those of us watching from the sidelines.

 

If Trey "operat[es] on a different psychological and mental level" than the rest of us, that's his problem, not ours - and it certainly doesn't mean that he deserves special treatment for behaviour that under any other circumstance would result in a righteous tarring & feathering.

 

Regarding bold part above: From my reading of his sales thread, I don't recall Trey claiming that it wasn't a PGX book. Unless you saw this in his thread for yourself, I'm guessing that this tidbid isn't really fact, but someone stated it and then has been repeated by others including yourself since then. Of course if you saw it for yourself, then I'll take your word for it.

 

Trey did crop the scan, but based on Aces' comments and from what I recall seeing in the past, this seems to be in line with what other sellers of PGX books have done in the past, and I don't recall them being trashed for it quite like Trey has been.

 

While I don't believe Trey mentioned that it was in another company's slab, like Aces suggested he & others might have done, given the cropped scan, the lack of "CGC" being denoted prior to his grade, and the pursuing comments in his thread, prior to Joey's I'll take it, it seemed pretty clear to me that it wasn't a CGC book (although there was obviously room for confusion, so I obviously don't fault Joey for not realizing that it wasn't a CGC book until he received it).

 

Of course I agree that Trey didn't handle everything in the best way after he started to get piled on, including his posting negative comments in Joey's feedback thread, or his threatening legal action (which I don't recall seeing anywhere for myself, but if JazzMan said that he did, then that's good enough for me). He's a bit socially awkward perhaps, but I really don't think he sold this book with the intent to deceive, at least IMHO.

 

Trey got called out on the thread for having a PGX book, he refused to take the book down. Trey deliberately refused to follow the rules. I'm not sure why Joey bought it, since the there were posts saying it was PGX before he posted the take it and Trey's responses were snippy at best...but the fact remains that Trey deliberately sold or tried to sell a PGX book, it's just plain wrong.

 

Perhaps it's time to amend the rules to add, the selling PGX or non CGC books. Although CGC can take the threads down, delete posts when non CGC books are listed, we are all guests of the company, and as good guests, we should be respectful of our hosts, and perhaps even help out a little.

 

I've been around for a while and I NEVER remember it being "okay" to sell pgx books, I remember people cropping them, pretending and ignoring posts by people who call them out...but I never remember it being "OK". There were definitely sellers who ignored, or tried to ignore the rules, but it certainly was not sanctioned by everyone, I know that many people were upset when these transgressions arose.

 

It's just not respectful to go to a picnic sponsored by Coca Cola and bring a cooler full of Pepsi.

 

We are all adults here (or most of us;) and we should know better...and if perhaps there are those of us who don't, then they belong on the probation list, for acts not benefiting the community...maybe with an asterisk next to their names.

[Superman2006]

This is BS, Roy!

 

 

Fair enough. Every one sees things differently.

 

It's what makes the world go round.

 

With all do respect, you and Trey are the only ones that are seeing things differently. I am sure he appreciates your efforts though. I am not trying to be mean but, that's how I see it.

 

No problem.

 

Understand that I am not saying Trey is innocent, just that I understand why he thought it was ok, that I would have handled the situation differently and that the law cuts both ways.

 

Just like a double edged saw blade.

 

Trey knew it was against the rules to sell PGX books here, so he tried to scam people by cropping the scan, hiding the label & claiming it wasn't a PGX book.

 

Roy, at what point does the offenses become so egregious that you don't immediately jump to someones defense? I realize you don't like seeing a boardie pile-up, that you always have a soft spot for the underdog, but in this particular matter, you're stretching yourself so far to downplay the seriousness of the situation that it's almost insulting to those of us watching from the sidelines.

 

If Trey "operat[es] on a different psychological and mental level" than the rest of us, that's his problem, not ours - and it certainly doesn't mean that he deserves special treatment for behaviour that under any other circumstance would result in a righteous tarring & feathering.

 

Regarding bold part above: From my reading of his sales thread, I don't recall Trey claiming that it wasn't a PGX book. Unless you saw this in his thread for yourself, I'm guessing that this tidbid isn't really fact, but someone stated it and then has been repeated by others including yourself since then. Of course if you saw it for yourself, then I'll take your word for it.

 

Trey did crop the scan, but based on Aces' comments and from what I recall seeing in the past, this seems to be in line with what other sellers of PGX books have done in the past, and I don't recall them being trashed for it quite like Trey has been.

 

While I don't believe Trey mentioned that it was in another company's slab, like Aces suggested he & others might have done, given the cropped scan, the lack of "CGC" being denoted prior to his grade, and the pursuing comments in his thread, prior to Joey's I'll take it, it seemed pretty clear to me that it wasn't a CGC book (although there was obviously room for confusion, so I obviously don't fault Joey for not realizing that it wasn't a CGC book until he received it).

 

Of course I agree that Trey didn't handle everything in the best way after he started to get piled on, including his posting negative comments in Joey's feedback thread, or his threatening legal action (which I don't recall seeing anywhere for myself, but if JazzMan said that he did, then that's good enough for me). He's a bit socially awkward perhaps, but I really don't think he sold this book with the intent to deceive, at least IMHO.

 

Trey got called out on the thread for having a PGX book, he refused to take the book down. Trey deliberately refused to follow the rules. I'm not sure why Joey bought it, since the there were posts saying it was PGX before he posted the take it and Trey's responses were snippy at best...but the fact remains that Trey deliberately sold or tried to sell a PGX book, it's just plain wrong.

 

Perhaps it's time to amend the rules to add, the selling PGX or non CGC books. Although CGC can take the threads down, delete posts when non CGC books are listed, we are all guests of the company, and as good guests, we should be respectful of our hosts, and perhaps even help out a little.

 

I've been around for a while and I NEVER remember it being "okay" to sell pgx books, I remember people cropping them, pretending and ignoring posts by people who call them out...but I never remember it being "OK". There were definitely sellers who ignored, or tried to ignore the rules, but it certainly was not sanctioned by everyone, I know that many people were upset when these transgressions arose.

 

It's just not respectful to go to a picnic sponsored by Coca Cola and bring a cooler full of Pepsi.

 

We are all adults here (or most of us;) and we should know better...and if perhaps there are those of us who don't, then they belong on the probation list, for acts not benefiting the community...maybe with an asterisk next to their names.

 

I totally agree with the bold part above.

 

While I agree that there are obviously some issues with Trey's handling of the situation after it blew up, IMHO he should get a pass this time, probation-wise, on the whole cropping of a PGX image thing since I don't recall anyone else being called out on it to the degree that Trey has been. His other follow up actions could still be fair game if pursued by others.

[PovertyRow]

My on this.

 

Trey sold a PGX book without revealing it.

 

Joey bought the book and received it in the slab.

 

Joey decided to remove the book from the slab to "enjoy at some future time".

 

After the subsequent issues regarding feedback etc already outlined, nominations for the PL begin. Trey nominates Joey and Joey nominates Trey.

 

Had Joey NOT taken the book out of the slab, had he returned it for a refund on the basis it was a PGX book THAT would be a valid case. But he accepted the book and unslabbed it for his own use.

 

Both sides here have some culpability.

 

This may be best served by Arch making a decision for strike(s) if he deems so.

[PovertyRow]

He was Nominated here...

 

I would like to nominate Trey Cannon for probation or outright banning[

 

Just an FYI for some folks wh may be new to the PL process: The only people who can validly nominate another to the PL must have been a part of the transaction.

 

[gaz973]

Trey Cannon once agreed to buy a book via PM that I had on my website then asked to wait till after a con to pay. I agreed and took the book off of the website. After not hearing back from him for sometime, I PM'd him to see what was happening and he backed out of the deal.

 

It didn't really seem worth probation list at the time but it's just another little piece to add to a tapestry of bad dealings.

[DrWatson]

My on this.

 

Trey sold a PGX book without revealing it.

 

Joey bought the book and received it in the slab.

 

Joey decided to remove the book from the slab to "enjoy at some future time".

 

After the subsequent issues regarding feedback etc already outlined, nominations for the PL begin. Trey nominates Joey and Joey nominates Trey.

 

Had Joey NOT taken the book out of the slab, had he returned it for a refund on the basis it was a PGX book THAT would be a valid case. But he accepted the book and unslabbed it for his own use.

 

Both sides here have some culpability.

 

This may be best served by Arch making a decision for strike(s) if he deems so.

Trey should either be placed on the probation list or given a suspension for selling a PGX book. Anything after that is moot.

[Speedy-D]

My on this.

 

Trey sold a PGX book without revealing it.

 

Joey bought the book and received it in the slab.

 

Joey decided to remove the book from the slab to "enjoy at some future time".

 

After the subsequent issues regarding feedback etc already outlined, nominations for the PL begin. Trey nominates Joey and Joey nominates Trey.

 

Had Joey NOT taken the book out of the slab, had he returned it for a refund on the basis it was a PGX book THAT would be a valid case. But he accepted the book and unslabbed it for his own use.

 

Both sides here have some culpability.

 

This may be best served by Arch making a decision for strike(s) if he deems so.

Trey should either be placed on the probation list or given a suspension for selling a PGX book. Anything after that is moot.

If it's a PL offense, what's he supposed to do to get himself off? (Innuendo intended )

[DrWatson]

My on this.

 

Trey sold a PGX book without revealing it.

 

Joey bought the book and received it in the slab.

 

Joey decided to remove the book from the slab to "enjoy at some future time".

 

After the subsequent issues regarding feedback etc already outlined, nominations for the PL begin. Trey nominates Joey and Joey nominates Trey.

 

Had Joey NOT taken the book out of the slab, had he returned it for a refund on the basis it was a PGX book THAT would be a valid case. But he accepted the book and unslabbed it for his own use.

 

Both sides here have some culpability.

 

This may be best served by Arch making a decision for strike(s) if he deems so.

Trey should either be placed on the probation list or given a suspension for selling a PGX book. Anything after that is moot.

If it's a PL offense, what's he supposed to do to get himself off? (Innuendo intended )

I guess the same as other offenders who are on the list and are no longer able to get themselves off.

[joeypost]

My on this.

 

Trey sold a PGX book without revealing it.

 

Joey bought the book and received it in the slab.

 

Joey decided to remove the book from the slab to "enjoy at some future time".

 

After the subsequent issues regarding feedback etc already outlined, nominations for the PL begin. Trey nominates Joey and Joey nominates Trey.

 

Had Joey NOT taken the book out of the slab, had he returned it for a refund on the basis it was a PGX book THAT would be a valid case. But he accepted the book and unslabbed it for his own use.

 

Both sides here have some culpability.

 

This may be best served by Arch making a decision for strike(s) if he deems so.

Trey should either be placed on the probation list or given a suspension for selling a PGX book. Anything after that is moot.

If it's a PL offense, what's he supposed to do to get himself off? (Innuendo intended )

 

Apologise to the boards for threatening to sue everyone. Really, how immature is that. The only thing he could have said to trump that was "My Daddy will beat you up if you don't".

 

Acknowledge the fact he lied about posting a PGX book.

 

If he can do those two simple things I think that would suffice to get him off the PL or HOS.

 

And for those who think I belong I would like to see your reasoning why.

[DrWatson]

And for those who think I belong I would like to see your reasoning why.

Would you also like for me to tell you why I still believe the world is flat?

[joeypost]

And for those who think I belong I would like to see your reasoning why.

Would you also like for me to tell you why I still believe the world is flat?

 

It's not?

[DrWatson]

And for those who think I belong I would like to see your reasoning why.

Would you also like for me to tell you why I still believe the world is flat?

 

It's not?

How about my Expanding Earth theory?

[discombobulated-migration]

This is BS, Roy!

 

 

Fair enough. Every one sees things differently.

 

It's what makes the world go round.

 

 

Maybe if you took the rose colored (coloured) glasses off, Roy...you'd see the problem here...

 

It's hippie lettuce, not glasses, that is part of this problem...

[chromium]

 

Apologise to the boards for threatening to sue everyone. Really, how immature is that. The only thing he could have said to trump that was "My Daddy will beat you up if you don't".

 

Acknowledge the fact he lied about posting a PGX book.

 

If he can do those two simple things I think that would suffice to get him off the PL or HOS.

 

And for those who think I belong I would like to see your reasoning why.

 

He's not even on the list yet and we're discussing how he can get removed ?

[DrWatson]

 

Apologise to the boards for threatening to sue everyone. Really, how immature is that. The only thing he could have said to trump that was "My Daddy will beat you up if you don't".

 

Acknowledge the fact he lied about posting a PGX book.

 

If he can do those two simple things I think that would suffice to get him off the PL or HOS.

 

And for those who think I belong I would like to see your reasoning why.

 

He's not even on the list yet and we're discussing how he can get removed ?

[comix4fun]

My on this.

 

Trey sold a PGX book without revealing it.

 

Joey bought the book and received it in the slab.

 

Joey decided to remove the book from the slab to "enjoy at some future time".

 

After the subsequent issues regarding feedback etc already outlined, nominations for the PL begin. Trey nominates Joey and Joey nominates Trey.

 

Had Joey NOT taken the book out of the slab, had he returned it for a refund on the basis it was a PGX book THAT would be a valid case. But he accepted the book and unslabbed it for his own use.

 

Both sides here have some culpability.

 

This may be best served by Arch making a decision for strike(s) if he deems so.

Trey should either be placed on the probation list or given a suspension for selling a PGX book. Anything after that is moot.

 

 

I agree with moderator action being the remedy for selling a PGX book outside the clearly stated rules of the forum. However, that's a mod action not a mob action. (see what I did there?)

 

Anyway...

 

As for probation list, there must be another reason aside from it simply being a PGX book. Something like overtly lying about the book, or refusing a refund of the book if returned in the same condition sent, or something else I may have missed during Friday Night Drama-Con 2011.

 

If the beef was just for being a PGX book then it could have been remedied as soon as the buyer saw that it was a PGX book, if indeed, that was the reason for the angst. It doesn't seem like the fact that the book was PGX is the reason we are still talking about this.

 

If that's true, then we need to stop talking about the fact that the book was PGX and let the moderators handle that transgression in the established and appropriate way

 

Then we can get down to the actual, factual and clearly enumerated reasons why or why not the probation list is the proper place for this seller based on the details of this transaction.

 

Right now it feels like everyone is talking about PGX and only PGX and, based on what I am seeing, it's clouding and distracting from figuring out what (if any) actual probation list transgressions may have occurred.

 

[N/A]

Don't talk logic to me.