PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[miraclemet]

did someone answer jimmy L's question? I actually was hoping for an answer? A strike for threadkrapping for pointing out PL status? Maybe if its done politely its ok?

 

Something like:

 

"Hey, GLWTS!

 

And by the way, everyone - this person is on the HOS list!"

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

Was it the seller or the buyer who was on the HOS list?

[Bosco685]

Telling people they have a small group attempting to control their destiny, no matter how calmly you say it, is an attempt to achieve an emotional reaction. You do realize this, right? Politicians do this quite often to achieve voter reaction.

 

But besides that, let's get back to what I think is one of your primary concerns.

 

"Prove your loyalty!" is a classic device of the demagogue, and one which need not be answered, much like "have you stopped beating your wife?"

 

No, that is the primary pupose of the PL/HOS, in that it is an attempt to help resolve troubled transactions with the assistance of the community. Working around that defeats the purpose.

 

Without any emotion, or any statement that then leads you to assuming I am making an official statement from the throne (another emotion-driven point on your part), what are the end-state changes you would recommend that would achieve an ideal solution to address troubled transactions?

 

[mschmidt]

did someone answer jimmy L's question? I actually was hoping for an answer? A strike for threadkrapping for pointing out PL status? Maybe if its done politely its ok?

 

Jimmy is full of it. The mods aren't going to give anyone a strike for pointing out that a seller is on the PL.

[Bio-Rupp]

If you sell to anyone on the PL list... thus knowingly ignoring what it stands for ... how can you justify using the same PL to punish or threaten someone when one of your failed sales qualifies you to be able to use it?

 

As much as you want it to be, it's not that black and white.

 

My terms are quite clear: I will sell to members on the PL on a case by case basis, and they must pay PRIOR TO claiming anything.

 

Just like the American justice system, each case is handled individually. Not everyone charged with (insert crime here) is guilty, nor is each case the same.

 

That there are people on the PL, and even the HOS, because they simply got frustrated...rather than working it out, they just walked, is proof of that. Dan (what's her face's husband) is an excellent example of that. In my experience, he's not a bad guy...but he got such public drubbing, he said forget it.

 

Doesn't make what he did right...not at all...but it's certainly not the same as, say, ComicSupply or CapFreak.

 

There are very, very few people with the stomach for the high holy righteous wrath many of you are capable of, especially when you're in mob mode.

 

We do not throw out the entire American justice system simply because the innocent are sometimes convicted, while the guilty sometimes go free.

 

Are most of the people on the PL/HOS there because they deserve to be? Without a doubt. Are ALL of them? No. Which is why we consider things case by case, and do not apply monolithic "justice" to everyone with an issue.

 

Kitsune, who absolutely without a doubt embodies the spirit of those who thumb their noses at the community and deserves to be on the list will not be...though with all this sturm and drang, I may reconsider not selling to him to see if he'll actually pay. I have my doubts. But he absolutely embodies the PL, but won't be on it.

 

How many of you want to put me on th PL? Yet I have done nothing to merit it, according to its own rules (sorry, "unwritten rules" have no merit.)

 

 

Ok so we are back on speaking terms... yay!

 

If you let the guy finish the transaction, which every one from the Axis of Evil all the way the newly formed Alliance of Alternative Thinking Evil Villains understands is the initial use of the PL discussion thread... all this will be over.

 

You get your money, he gets the book. Again a win-win.

 

Flip that coin over... he DOESN'T pay you, you keep your book and place him on the PL. Another win-win for you.

 

RMA you can quote every book from the Holy Bible all the way to current issue of Cosmopolitan... doesn't change the fact that you will get what you are entitled to by the PL Discussion Board by doing the bold type above.

 

 

 

It is literally, physically painful to watch you twist logic into such a pretzel.

 

Please, just stop.

 

RMA... regardless of weather you like it or not... this was the set guidelines set forth from weeks of back and forth interation with boardies, moderation, and POV (or Great Shamalanga-Hut or whatever he's going by today )

 

I remember POV worked on this forever to try to make it the best it could be.

 

Any set of rules can/will have its limitations, we all know that. But this is the template the mods have locked into place... and it works fairly well.

 

You state these rules and the PL system that we have all scream "demagogue"... but I swear man... with you taking away another boardie's option to correct his mistakes kinda makes you a "dictator" in a sense.

 

I just personally don't feel that when POV wrote this... he was thinking " Ha Ha Ha... those minions will now know the word .... OF POV"

 

I love a good wall of text as much as the next guy... so fix the current rules below to how they would better suit you... and pass it on to POV.

 

Try your best to leave out any Rowling quotes or lyrics from Alanis Morrisette.

 

------------

 

HOS and Probation List Rules

 

The following Probation List Rules are in effect beginning 8/1/2011. Over some period of time these may be modified or expanded.

 

1) The 30-Day Rule

a) If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List (hereafter called the PL)

 

b) If the transaction is agreed on by both parties to take longer than 30 days - for example, a transaction involving time payments over a longer time, the 30 day clock begins from the time the agreed upon conditions were violated.

 

c) The 30-day rule is suspended if the accused refuses to complete the transaction or if the transaction cannot be completed due to, for example, the item being sold to someone else.

 

d) A Transaction between board members is not confined to the CGC Message Boards. Any transaction between forum members, regardless of the venue, is eligible for inclusion in the PL.

 

2) Notification on the Probation Discussion Thread

 

a) After the 30 Day Rule is fulfilled, the accuser will send a PM to the accused informing them the issue is being submitted to the Probation Discussion Thread for their inclusion in the PL. This should be a new PM and not part of an existing PM chain.

 

b) After the PM is sent the accuser may submit the accused for inclusion in the PL via the Probation Discussion Thread.

 

c) The accuser should outline as completely as possible the circumstances surrounding the transaction in dispute. Where possible include hyperlinks to board transactions and contact attempts along with dates.

 

d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion.

 

e) If completing the transaction is no longer possible, the accuser may outline a proposed path to resolution.

 

3) Being Placed On The PL

 

a) After a 72-hour waiting period, if the accused does not respond they will be placed on the PL.

 

b) If the accused responds in the Probation Discussion Thread and it is determined the conditions of the transaction was not met, they will be added to the PL.

 

c) If the accused is not available during that 72-hour period and is placed on the PL, they are free to later respond in the Probation Discussion Thread and present their side.

 

d) If the accused has not responded in the Probation Discussion Thread but continues to post on the boards, a reply can be made informing them they are being considered for placement on the PL.

 

4) Removal From The PL

 

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

5) Probation List versus Hall Of Shame

 

a) The Probation List is for transactions that have not been fulfilled as promised.

 

b) The Hall Of Shame is for serious transgressions. For example, selling a book/books and sending nothing of value in the package. Interfering with someone's business. Being a multiple offender.

 

c) The Hall Of Shame candidate is subject to all of the above rules.

 

d) Inclusion in the Hall Of Shame must be decided by a poll.

 

e) Removal from the Hall Of Shame must be decided by a poll.

[Balham's Finest]

Is there ANY chance at all that you two could take it to PM?

 

I know, I know, it's a discussion thread. But this isn't a discussion - you're trading essays and each trying to look smarter than the other. It's honestly painful to read.

[Bio-Rupp]

Is there ANY chance at all that you two could take it to PM?

 

I know, I know, it's a discussion thread. But this isn't a discussion - you're trading essays and each trying to look smarter than the other. It's honestly painful to read.

 

Only one breaking out the Walt Witman is RMA....

 

I quote the allmighty POV

[Bosco685]

Is there ANY chance at all that you two could take it to PM?

 

I know, I know, it's a discussion thread. But this isn't a discussion - you're trading essays and each trying to look smarter than the other. It's honestly painful to read.

 

Actually, I'm just trying to understand the concerns and identify the details where the PL/HOS has broken down. And it does have to do with the topic of this thread. The wall of essays is not coming from me. I keep cutting it down to a few items to be addressed.

 

But maybe you are picking up on things I am not.

[Bio-Rupp]

Feel free to use the Bio-Rupp Wall of Text alert post whenever deemed necessary

 

[sufunk]

This has got to be the all time pizzing match in PL history!

 

I gotta say though, i was 100% on RMA's side but like someone else said before, i'm not so sure you should be nominating people for the PL list if you dont care enough about it to not actually sell to people on the PL

[Balham's Finest]

Is there ANY chance at all that you two could take it to PM?

 

I know, I know, it's a discussion thread. But this isn't a discussion - you're trading essays and each trying to look smarter than the other. It's honestly painful to read.

 

Actually, I'm just trying to understand the concerns and identify the details where the PL/HOS has broken down. And it does have to do with the topic of this thread. The wall of essays is not coming from me. I keep cutting it down to a few items to be addressed.

 

But maybe you are picking up on things I am not.

 

I'm not disputing that what you're talking about is on topic. But I doubt there are very many people that are reading every word of what's being written (and FAOD I agree that the wall of essays is not coming from you).

 

Hence my suggestion that you take it to PM, so that the people who are getting something out of it now can continue to do so, and the rest of us don't have to read it all.

 

Anyway, perhaps I am wrong and people are enjoying it. The best solution is probably for me to head off to another thread until this is over!

[Bosco685]

This has got to be the all time pizzing match in PL history!

 

No it isn't. But nice try..

 

One of the worst was the entire CapFreak situation, and all the "haa-haa" statements he made while he worked with some folks to get his name off the list and actively telling everyone.

 

 

[Balham's Finest]

Feel free to use the Bio-Rupp Wall of Text alert post whenever deemed necessary

 

 

 

I like this and will use it in future!

[Bio-Rupp]

Is there ANY chance at all that you two could take it to PM?

 

I know, I know, it's a discussion thread. But this isn't a discussion - you're trading essays and each trying to look smarter than the other. It's honestly painful to read.

 

Actually, I'm just trying to understand the concerns and identify the details where the PL/HOS has broken down. And it does have to do with the topic of this thread. The wall of essays is not coming from me. I keep cutting it down to a few items to be addressed.

 

But maybe you are picking up on things I am not.

 

I'm not disputing that what you're talking about is on topic. But I doubt there are very many people that are reading every word of what's being written (and FAOD I agree that the wall of essays is not coming from you).

 

Hence my suggestion that you take it to PM, so that the people who are getting something out of it now can continue to do so, and the rest of us don't have to read it all.

 

Anyway, perhaps I am wrong and people are enjoying it. The best solution is probably for me to head off to another thread until this is over!

 

No you should keep reading sir. The PL Discussion thread is pretty much the only protection we have buying and selling here on the boards.

 

I would say that's important enough in itself to at least stay tuned in.

[Balham's Finest]

Is there ANY chance at all that you two could take it to PM?

 

I know, I know, it's a discussion thread. But this isn't a discussion - you're trading essays and each trying to look smarter than the other. It's honestly painful to read.

 

Actually, I'm just trying to understand the concerns and identify the details where the PL/HOS has broken down. And it does have to do with the topic of this thread. The wall of essays is not coming from me. I keep cutting it down to a few items to be addressed.

 

But maybe you are picking up on things I am not.

 

I'm not disputing that what you're talking about is on topic. But I doubt there are very many people that are reading every word of what's being written (and FAOD I agree that the wall of essays is not coming from you).

 

Hence my suggestion that you take it to PM, so that the people who are getting something out of it now can continue to do so, and the rest of us don't have to read it all.

 

Anyway, perhaps I am wrong and people are enjoying it. The best solution is probably for me to head off to another thread until this is over!

 

No you should keep reading sir. The PL Discussion thread is pretty much the only protection we have buying and selling here on the boards.

 

I would say that's important enough in itself to at least stay tuned in.

 

I know and I do - I just don't want to read a thousand words per post of what looks to me like it's at least partly an intellectual dong-waving exercise.

 

Maybe I am just lazy...

[RockMyAmadeus]

Is there ANY chance at all that you two could take it to PM?

 

I know, I know, it's a discussion thread. But this isn't a discussion - you're trading essays and each trying to look smarter than the other. It's honestly painful to read.

 

No, of course not. This discussion isn't for Bosco...it's to counter the appeals to emotion that Bosco makes. I know, very boring for most...but one that will ultimately make the difference between freedom and slavery.

 

You may not be aware of this, but I post very little besides silly memes and emoticons on this board now. If I was "trying to look smart", I certainly wouldn't be doing that.

 

If something is painful for you to read, my advice would simply be to stop reading it.

 

[Logan510]

This has got to be the all time pizzing match in PL history!

 

I gotta say though, i was 100% on RMA's side but like someone else said before, i'm not so sure you should be nominating people for the PL list if you dont care enough about it to not actually sell to people on the PL

 

 

I was with him until he quoted Rand

[RockMyAmadeus]

(and FAOD I agree that the wall of essays is not coming from you).

 

 

Really...?

 

This:

 

[

If you are going to use the word "demagogue" when quoting me, make sure you also point out I did not create this this list, nor do I manage it. What I pointed out are the common expectations on this forum how this PL/HOS method is used to encourage community norms leading to much more positive transactions.

 

A lot of what you inserted sounded like true demagoge statements, where you are trying to make an emotional appeal how following community norms detracts from freedom and individual decision-making. Such is not the case. But your post comes across so empassioned, I think you may have lost focus on what the intent is of the PL/HOS.

 

If we want a free-for-all environment, where anything goes related to sales (the majority would say otherwise), over time CGC would have to eliminate this feature from its forum because it would become a detractor tied to its brand. But they have kindly allowed forum members to self-police such activity unless it becomes a legal or partner-impacting situation (e.g. CapFreak and Borock's phone message).

 

Positive results that are forced with the right care and management are positive. How do you think individuals and teams push themselves to achieve greater goals than they would have as a standalone unit? Someone helped them down a different path than they would have gone otherwise. It's the same with community behavior and social norms when dealing with financial matters that could be quite damaging to an individual.

 

Eventually, though, everyone is forced to conform to whatever the ones with the power dictate is acceptable, on penalty of shaming or worse...and the majority ends up in chains.

 

What power? The power to encourage positive transactions, and ensuring if things don't go smoothly initiatially there is some form of recourse for those in a tough situation? Again, I think you are so busy giving the stump speech about how you would like things, you forget what the intent and general experience has been with this method to resolve issues. And it involves the leadership of the community - not one individual or a designated small group.

 

Is it flawed? Sure it is. It would be nice if someone like Kitsune could go on a warning list, to alert people dealing with him may be hit or miss (or pure miss from two transactions). But rallying against any recourse system so we can all go off and do "whatever" is then going down the path of forgetting why this entire system was implemented in the first place.

 

I didn't implement this system. But I respect the intent, recognize the majority of the benefit it brings, and don't try and work around it so I can focus on how much more money I can make without a care about fellow forumites that have been burned.

 

...is not a wall of text...?

 

Really...?

 

Come on.

[Bosco685]

No, of course not. This discussion isn't for Bosco...it's to counter the appeals to emotion that Bosco makes. I know, very boring for most...but one that will ultimately make the difference between freedom and slavery.

 

Stating "difference between freedom and slavery" is over-the-top extreme and meant to evoke emotions from folks. Like they have to overthrow some cabal that has been controlling them unknowingly. That is not even within the range of reason.

 

You actively sell to PL and HOS members because you do not believe in the current process and results. Tossing out all these other statements to make it sound like there is some hidden agenda distracts from what you feel are the problems associated with the PL/HOS.

[Balham's Finest]

Is there ANY chance at all that you two could take it to PM?

 

I know, I know, it's a discussion thread. But this isn't a discussion - you're trading essays and each trying to look smarter than the other. It's honestly painful to read.

 

No, of course not. This discussion isn't for Bosco...it's to counter the appeals to emotion that Bosco makes. I know, very boring for most...but one that will ultimately make the difference between freedom and slavery.

 

You may not be aware of this, but I post very little besides silly memes and emoticons on this board now. If I was "trying to look smart", I certainly wouldn't be doing that.

 

If something is painful for you to read, my advice would simply be to stop reading it.

 

My point was that I'm not sure how many people are reading the appeals to emotion in the first place.

 

I do know about your emoticon posting habits. I don't think that's relevant as I was only commenting on what this exchange of posts looked like to me, not what your wider board persona is all about.

[Balham's Finest]

(and FAOD I agree that the wall of essays is not coming from you).

 

 

Really...?

 

This:

 

bla

 

...is not a wall of text...?

 

Really...?

 

Come on.

 

Awesomely patronising, cheers. Yes, that is a wall of text. I didn't go through every post the two/three of you had made to check who had posted what. Perhaps it would offend you less if we pretend the post of mine that you quote had said "generally not coming from you"?

Edited July 24, 2013 by Balham's Finest