PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Speedy-D]

So if the buyer is elected to the PL over this, his only recourse to get off is to buy a book he presumably doesn't want. Is that really what the seller wants?

Is this not the situation with just about every case where the buyer hasn't paid?

 

I wasn't asking rhetorically.

If it's not rhetorical, you should ask the seller directly if it's what he wants. I'm not sure of the relevance, but we all wonder things.

 

You're not sure of the relevance of what the seller wants the outcome of this to be?

To whether it's a PL-worthy situation? No.

[Logan510]

So if the buyer is elected to the PL over this, his only recourse to get off is to buy a book he presumably doesn't want. Is that really what the seller wants?

 

 

Apparently being a close friend of mine isn't enough

 

Please tell me this is a joke

He never knows if it's a joke until someone calls him on it. Then he says the opposite.

 

Happy New Year buddy.

[Bio-Rupp]

Casey... please man... you aren't helping this conversation

[comix4fun]

Man, he agreed to a deal, then tried to change it a couple times, then backed out and said "Do what you gotta do," then blamed it on graders' notes...that reeks of buyer's remorse. I don't think I've ever seen so much defense of this position before in a PL dispute where the defendant hasn't even spoken up yet. So what if it's expensive? If you're the nervous sort, caveat the and hope for the best. And if knowing that CGC gave it an 8.0 isn't enough for you, again, caveat the . :shrug:

 

 

You don't see an issue with something being called NOT a stain or "an odd light" and having that be part of the description of a book pre-sale and then CGC identifying it as a "stain running through the entire book"?

 

If the buyer is relying on that initial description of the stain as part of his decision to purchase I don't see how it can be ignored given CGC's designation.

 

And I read through Bob's requests to alter the deal. None of those attempts involved paying the seller less than 100% of his asking original asking price. Doesn't sound like buyer's remorse.

he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was an odd light. And all of the attempts to change the deal seems sketchy to me. Not like it's a scam, but also not like someone who's fully committed to the deal. Finally, I personally wouldn't bring him up for the PL, if I felt like he honestly didn't want the book and I could still resell it for the same amount. But this isn't about me.

 

 

What's "an odd light"?

I assume it means a trick of the light...catching the light at an odd angle.

 

 

Here's the thing, if he wasn't sure of what it was when asked directly it would have been better to say that than what was said.

 

What was said could create an expectation on behalf of the buyer. Who knows better what's on the book than the person who owns the book? If you ask them if it's a stain and they think it's something else that creates expectations. Those expectations are what go into agreements to buy and sell. It's a material defect to many collectors. When someone relies on that descriptor and it turns out to be false then the underpinnings of the meeting of the minds that created their agreement is destroyed.

I know where you're coming from, but I don't agree. If I ask you what that thing on the corner is, and you say "I think the bottom back corner is just an odd light," I'm in the wrong if I think you've given me a definitive answer. And that's my problem, not yours.

 

Why did he ask for the graders' notes? Because he wasn't feeling 100% about the deal? That's totally understandable, but if he wasn't feeling 100% about the deal, why give the ?

 

 

Seller's actually have a higher level of responsibility than that. A scan or pic can be read differently by different people. However, the guy who owns the book, and took the pics, and then gives his opinion as to what it is, for better or worse, creates an expectation in buyers because no one is in a better position to know than he is.

 

Every person who reads that thread from that point on includes that owner's description of what turned out to be a stain as not a stain.

 

Saying he "thought" it was an odd light should bear no less weight than a seller who "thinks" his books is a certain grade. Grades are opinions too, and if a seller "thinks" a book is one grade and it comes back another created an expectation that turned out to be wrong. This stain is exactly the same in that regard.

[Speedy-D]

Man, he agreed to a deal, then tried to change it a couple times, then backed out and said "Do what you gotta do," then blamed it on graders' notes...that reeks of buyer's remorse. I don't think I've ever seen so much defense of this position before in a PL dispute where the defendant hasn't even spoken up yet. So what if it's expensive? If you're the nervous sort, caveat the and hope for the best. And if knowing that CGC gave it an 8.0 isn't enough for you, again, caveat the . :shrug:

 

 

You don't see an issue with something being called NOT a stain or "an odd light" and having that be part of the description of a book pre-sale and then CGC identifying it as a "stain running through the entire book"?

 

If the buyer is relying on that initial description of the stain as part of his decision to purchase I don't see how it can be ignored given CGC's designation.

 

And I read through Bob's requests to alter the deal. None of those attempts involved paying the seller less than 100% of his asking original asking price. Doesn't sound like buyer's remorse.

he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was an odd light. And all of the attempts to change the deal seems sketchy to me. Not like it's a scam, but also not like someone who's fully committed to the deal. Finally, I personally wouldn't bring him up for the PL, if I felt like he honestly didn't want the book and I could still resell it for the same amount. But this isn't about me.

 

 

What's "an odd light"?

I assume it means a trick of the light...catching the light at an odd angle.

 

 

Here's the thing, if he wasn't sure of what it was when asked directly it would have been better to say that than what was said.

 

What was said could create an expectation on behalf of the buyer. Who knows better what's on the book than the person who owns the book? If you ask them if it's a stain and they think it's something else that creates expectations. Those expectations are what go into agreements to buy and sell. It's a material defect to many collectors. When someone relies on that descriptor and it turns out to be false then the underpinnings of the meeting of the minds that created their agreement is destroyed.

I know where you're coming from, but I don't agree. If I ask you what that thing on the corner is, and you say "I think the bottom back corner is just an odd light," I'm in the wrong if I think you've given me a definitive answer. And that's my problem, not yours.

 

Why did he ask for the graders' notes? Because he wasn't feeling 100% about the deal? That's totally understandable, but if he wasn't feeling 100% about the deal, why give the ?

 

 

Seller's actually have a higher level of responsibility than that. A scan or pic can be read differently by different people. However, the guy who owns the book, and took the pics, and then gives his opinion as to what it is, for better or worse, creates an expectation in buyers because no one is in a better position to know than he is.

 

Every person who reads that thread from that point on includes that owner's description of what turned out to be a stain as not a stain.

 

Saying he "thought" it was an odd light should bear no less weight than a seller who "thinks" his books is a certain grade. Grades are opinions too, and if a seller "thinks" a book is one grade and it comes back another created an expectation that turned out to be wrong. This stain is exactly the same in that regard.

First of all, UNCLE!!

 

Second, a stain and a grade are not the same thing. Either something can be a stain, or a trick of the light, but it can't be both. If I say I think it's a trick of the light, that is not the same thing as as saying it is a trick of the light.

 

But it's cool, the day something like this is actually agreed upon on a chat board, is the day Casey makes a decent contribution to a discussion.

[djpinkpanther67]

Having said that, I have had plenty of board members in very good standing (upstanding members of the community) either not ship books or just forget about deals and not pay for them.

Or ship the wrong book

Edited January 29, 2014 by djpinkpanther67

[HarveySwick]

I've been catching up on this discussion for the last 40 minutes or so and I can say --> spending every day arguing a side as a lawyer, even I'm kind of stumped on this one.

 

On one hand > the whole "no, it's not a stain, it's some kind of light" changing to "stain that goes through the book" is a HUGE deal that would make me freak out.

 

But on the other hand > I want out of the deal. Can we change books, I don't want to give up the one's I offered. The sentimental attachment is too much. No, but you can pay. Ok, I'll pay full price. Thinking to himself I don't have that money! How can I get out of this? There is no getting around the fact that Bob did somewhat want out of the deal before the grader's notes.

 

But there was a misrepresentation that it wasn't a stain when it was.

 

Bottom line... until Bob gets here.

[Speedy-D]

I've been catching up on this discussion for the last 40 minutes or so and I can say --> spending every day arguing a side as a lawyer, even I'm kind of stumped on this one.

 

On one hand > the whole "no, it's not a stain, it's some kind of light" changing to "stain that goes through the book" is a HUGE deal that would make me freak out.

 

But on the other hand > I want out of the deal. Can we change books, I don't want to give up the one's I offered. The sentimental attachment is too much. No, but you can pay. Ok, I'll pay full price. Thinking to himself I don't have that money! How can I get out of this? There is no getting around the fact that Bob did somewhat want out of the deal before the grader's notes.

 

But there was a misrepresentation that it wasn't a stain when it was.

 

Bottom line... until Bob gets here.

As a lawyer, would you say there's no difference between saying "It's the lighting" and "I think it's the lighting?"

[HarveySwick]

Both are somewhat misrepresentations to the buyer though?

 

The seller, who has the book IN HAND and can look at it closely, is saying that it doesn't appear to be a stain. The buyer, who is ONLY going on the pictures/scans/seller's word has no opportunity to examine the book in hand.

 

If that was the end of it, I would easily side with the buyer. BUT Bob wanted out of hte deal before getting the grader's notes, so in that regard > I begin to take the seller's side.

 

It's really a tough call and I need Bob's argument.

[slym2none]

If I may play Devil's Advocate - couldn't the seller just have looked at the book from a different angle to see for certain whether or not it was "an odd light?" Seems easy enough to rectify beforehand.

 

 

 

-slym

[boomtown]

That stain would be a deal breaker for a large group of collectors.

 

When Dan made the statement about the corner, it was obvious to me that it was a stain. He was taking pictures from all angles & it was there in multiple photos. My thought then was that it would not end well.

 

The problem is that even with the grade it got, it's gone down in value with the stain notation, & some collectors would just pass it by.

[Spider-Dan]

Both are somewhat misrepresentations to the buyer though?

 

The seller, who has the book IN HAND and can look at it closely, is saying that it doesn't appear to be a stain. The buyer, who is ONLY going on the pictures/scans/seller's word has no opportunity to examine the book in hand.

 

If that was the end of it, I would easily side with the buyer. BUT Bob wanted out of hte deal before getting the grader's notes, so in that regard > I begin to take the seller's side.

 

It's really a tough call and I need Bob's argument.

 

That's the thing... I DIDNT have the book in hand. It was in transit from Florida. If I had it in hand, I would have taken and posted a pic and answered the question the best I could

[Logan510]

If I may play Devil's Advocate - couldn't the seller just have looked at the book from a different angle to see for certain whether or not it was "an odd light?" Seems easy enough to rectify beforehand.

 

 

 

-slym

 

Even taking that out of the equation...what if the buyer had just asked out of the deal for whatever reason?

[comix4fun]

Man, he agreed to a deal, then tried to change it a couple times, then backed out and said "Do what you gotta do," then blamed it on graders' notes...that reeks of buyer's remorse. I don't think I've ever seen so much defense of this position before in a PL dispute where the defendant hasn't even spoken up yet. So what if it's expensive? If you're the nervous sort, caveat the and hope for the best. And if knowing that CGC gave it an 8.0 isn't enough for you, again, caveat the . :shrug:

 

 

You don't see an issue with something being called NOT a stain or "an odd light" and having that be part of the description of a book pre-sale and then CGC identifying it as a "stain running through the entire book"?

 

If the buyer is relying on that initial description of the stain as part of his decision to purchase I don't see how it can be ignored given CGC's designation.

 

And I read through Bob's requests to alter the deal. None of those attempts involved paying the seller less than 100% of his asking original asking price. Doesn't sound like buyer's remorse.

he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was an odd light. And all of the attempts to change the deal seems sketchy to me. Not like it's a scam, but also not like someone who's fully committed to the deal. Finally, I personally wouldn't bring him up for the PL, if I felt like he honestly didn't want the book and I could still resell it for the same amount. But this isn't about me.

 

 

What's "an odd light"?

I assume it means a trick of the light...catching the light at an odd angle.

 

 

Here's the thing, if he wasn't sure of what it was when asked directly it would have been better to say that than what was said.

 

What was said could create an expectation on behalf of the buyer. Who knows better what's on the book than the person who owns the book? If you ask them if it's a stain and they think it's something else that creates expectations. Those expectations are what go into agreements to buy and sell. It's a material defect to many collectors. When someone relies on that descriptor and it turns out to be false then the underpinnings of the meeting of the minds that created their agreement is destroyed.

I know where you're coming from, but I don't agree. If I ask you what that thing on the corner is, and you say "I think the bottom back corner is just an odd light," I'm in the wrong if I think you've given me a definitive answer. And that's my problem, not yours.

 

Why did he ask for the graders' notes? Because he wasn't feeling 100% about the deal? That's totally understandable, but if he wasn't feeling 100% about the deal, why give the ?

 

 

Seller's actually have a higher level of responsibility than that. A scan or pic can be read differently by different people. However, the guy who owns the book, and took the pics, and then gives his opinion as to what it is, for better or worse, creates an expectation in buyers because no one is in a better position to know than he is.

 

Every person who reads that thread from that point on includes that owner's description of what turned out to be a stain as not a stain.

 

Saying he "thought" it was an odd light should bear no less weight than a seller who "thinks" his books is a certain grade. Grades are opinions too, and if a seller "thinks" a book is one grade and it comes back another created an expectation that turned out to be wrong. This stain is exactly the same in that regard.

First of all, UNCLE!!

 

Second, a stain and a grade are not the same thing. Either something can be a stain, or a trick of the light, but it can't be both. If I say I think it's a trick of the light, that is not the same thing as as saying it is a trick of the light.

 

But it's cool, the day something like this is actually agreed upon on a chat board, is the day Casey makes a decent contribution to a discussion.

 

 

They are all opinions. Either something is a VF or it's not. Something is a stain or it's not.

Grading, condition issues, defects, etc. All opinions in this hobby. Anyone who says they are 100% certain doesn't mean they are 100% infallible. So it's all the same.

 

If you say you think it's a VF and it's not, then you're wrong. If you say it's a trick of light and it's not, you're wrong. If I was a seller and was wrong and a buyer relied on either statement and got something other than my thought, I would expect to be lenient given my error and what my error allowed to happen.

[Speedy-D]

Both are somewhat misrepresentations to the buyer though?

 

The seller, who has the book IN HAND and can look at it closely, is saying that it doesn't appear to be a stain. The buyer, who is ONLY going on the pictures/scans/seller's word has no opportunity to examine the book in hand.

 

If that was the end of it, I would easily side with the buyer. BUT Bob wanted out of hte deal before getting the grader's notes, so in that regard > I begin to take the seller's side.

 

It's really a tough call and I need Bob's argument.

He'd already sent it to CGC, so all he had was his memory and the same pics Bob was looking at.

 

But all that aside, does the "I think" part of it not mitigate in some way? Just interested, not trying to win a point.

[DR.X]

Both are somewhat misrepresentations to the buyer though?

 

The seller, who has the book IN HAND and can look at it closely, is saying that it doesn't appear to be a stain. The buyer, who is ONLY going on the pictures/scans/seller's word has no opportunity to examine the book in hand.

 

If that was the end of it, I would easily side with the buyer. BUT Bob wanted out of hte deal before getting the grader's notes, so in that regard > I begin to take the seller's side.

 

It's really a tough call and I need Bob's argument.

 

That's the thing... I DIDNT have the book in hand. It was in transit from Florida. If I had it in hand, I would have taken and posted a pic and answered the question the best I could

 

I think he's referring to when you had it in hand before you sent it out for grading.

[comix4fun]

Both are somewhat misrepresentations to the buyer though?

 

The seller, who has the book IN HAND and can look at it closely, is saying that it doesn't appear to be a stain. The buyer, who is ONLY going on the pictures/scans/seller's word has no opportunity to examine the book in hand.

 

If that was the end of it, I would easily side with the buyer. BUT Bob wanted out of hte deal before getting the grader's notes, so in that regard > I begin to take the seller's side.

 

It's really a tough call and I need Bob's argument.

 

That's the thing... I DIDNT have the book in hand. It was in transit from Florida. If I had it in hand, I would have taken and posted a pic and answered the question the best I could

 

 

Were the pictures taken by someone else?

 

That makes it a little more difficult for me, given your opinion on what turned out to be a stain.

 

It's not easy as a seller to be put in this situation, that I will give you for sure.

[Speedy-D]

Man, he agreed to a deal, then tried to change it a couple times, then backed out and said "Do what you gotta do," then blamed it on graders' notes...that reeks of buyer's remorse. I don't think I've ever seen so much defense of this position before in a PL dispute where the defendant hasn't even spoken up yet. So what if it's expensive? If you're the nervous sort, caveat the and hope for the best. And if knowing that CGC gave it an 8.0 isn't enough for you, again, caveat the . :shrug:

 

 

You don't see an issue with something being called NOT a stain or "an odd light" and having that be part of the description of a book pre-sale and then CGC identifying it as a "stain running through the entire book"?

 

If the buyer is relying on that initial description of the stain as part of his decision to purchase I don't see how it can be ignored given CGC's designation.

 

And I read through Bob's requests to alter the deal. None of those attempts involved paying the seller less than 100% of his asking original asking price. Doesn't sound like buyer's remorse.

he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was an odd light. And all of the attempts to change the deal seems sketchy to me. Not like it's a scam, but also not like someone who's fully committed to the deal. Finally, I personally wouldn't bring him up for the PL, if I felt like he honestly didn't want the book and I could still resell it for the same amount. But this isn't about me.

 

 

What's "an odd light"?

I assume it means a trick of the light...catching the light at an odd angle.

 

 

Here's the thing, if he wasn't sure of what it was when asked directly it would have been better to say that than what was said.

 

What was said could create an expectation on behalf of the buyer. Who knows better what's on the book than the person who owns the book? If you ask them if it's a stain and they think it's something else that creates expectations. Those expectations are what go into agreements to buy and sell. It's a material defect to many collectors. When someone relies on that descriptor and it turns out to be false then the underpinnings of the meeting of the minds that created their agreement is destroyed.

I know where you're coming from, but I don't agree. If I ask you what that thing on the corner is, and you say "I think the bottom back corner is just an odd light," I'm in the wrong if I think you've given me a definitive answer. And that's my problem, not yours.

 

Why did he ask for the graders' notes? Because he wasn't feeling 100% about the deal? That's totally understandable, but if he wasn't feeling 100% about the deal, why give the ?

 

 

Seller's actually have a higher level of responsibility than that. A scan or pic can be read differently by different people. However, the guy who owns the book, and took the pics, and then gives his opinion as to what it is, for better or worse, creates an expectation in buyers because no one is in a better position to know than he is.

 

Every person who reads that thread from that point on includes that owner's description of what turned out to be a stain as not a stain.

 

Saying he "thought" it was an odd light should bear no less weight than a seller who "thinks" his books is a certain grade. Grades are opinions too, and if a seller "thinks" a book is one grade and it comes back another created an expectation that turned out to be wrong. This stain is exactly the same in that regard.

First of all, UNCLE!!

 

Second, a stain and a grade are not the same thing. Either something can be a stain, or a trick of the light, but it can't be both. If I say I think it's a trick of the light, that is not the same thing as as saying it is a trick of the light.

 

But it's cool, the day something like this is actually agreed upon on a chat board, is the day Casey makes a decent contribution to a discussion.

 

 

They are all opinions. Either something is a VF or it's not. Something is a stain or it's not.

Grading, condition issues, defects, etc. All opinions in this hobby. Anyone who says they are 100% certain doesn't mean they are 100% infallible. So it's all the same.

 

If you say you think it's a VF and it's not, then you're wrong. If you say it's a trick of light and it's not, you're wrong. If I was a seller and was wrong and a buyer relied on either statement and got something other than my thought, I would expect to be lenient given my error and what my error allowed to happen.

What I meant was "VF" is debatable...even coming from CGC. That's an opinion. Even CGC doesn't state that they're guaranteeing the grade, because that wouldn't make any sense. Whether discoloration is due to contact with water is not my opinion. It either is or it isn't.

[HarveySwick]

That's the thing... I DIDNT have the book in hand. It was in transit from Florida. If I had it in hand, I would have taken and posted a pic and answered the question the best I could

Maybe I missed this then > and I apologize > but did you ever have it in hand? Or did you buy it sight unseen and have it sent directly to CGC? I'm not being a smart @ss, just really asking.

 

Basically, he has an argument that he was told it was NOT a stain. That hurts your argument.

 

BUT, you can counter that with he obviously wanted out of the deal before this became and issue and was looking for something to rest his hat on. That is a big argument for you and it's up to him to explain that away.

 

Like I said...

[comix4fun]

Both are somewhat misrepresentations to the buyer though?

 

The seller, who has the book IN HAND and can look at it closely, is saying that it doesn't appear to be a stain. The buyer, who is ONLY going on the pictures/scans/seller's word has no opportunity to examine the book in hand.

 

If that was the end of it, I would easily side with the buyer. BUT Bob wanted out of hte deal before getting the grader's notes, so in that regard > I begin to take the seller's side.

 

It's really a tough call and I need Bob's argument.

He'd already sent it to CGC, so all he had was his memory and the same pics Bob was looking at.

 

But all that aside, does the "I think" part of it not mitigate in some way? Just interested, not trying to win a point.

 

Going from memory on such a big book is a tough call given how much staining will turn buyers off in this hobby.