PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[MetalPSI]

So the stain shows up, the seller is not budging on 16k or the buyer doesn't want a book with a stain on it?

 

Lots of us would be picky on a book like this with a stain and a 16K price tag. The notes are saying this stain runs the length of the book. This is what kind of baffles me. I've had books just hammered for a tiny dot sized stain.

 

I totally agree. If I could even afford a 16k book right now, I would be more than picky about it's condition and I would make more than sure it's exactly what I would want. I am just curious if the seller hasn't made another offer. The seller clearly didn't realize the stain was there, and from what pics I have seen, it was a really hard defect to spot.

 

IF it was me (and I hate doing what if's) I would express my disappointment as a buyer and decline altogether and look for a more desirable copy.

 

IF I was the seller, I would totally discount my price based on what CGC has issued. Or unslab it completely and have it as a raw sale.

 

I don't buy/sell comics. I am just a collector and not in the "business". But I could see how this is a surprise to EVERYBODY and it seems to me the classy thing to do would be discount the price or hold on to the book and resell it.

 

I really cannot see how any one person is backing out of this deal in a bad way.

 

Why would I discount a book because it has a stain. CGC graded it an 8.0 WITH the stain. They didn't miss it.

 

And for the record, I don't consider myself a dealer. Just a guy who likes to buy and sell (thumbs u

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I did not mean to judge anyone's integrity or whatever.

 

I have stated, that is a BEAUTIFUL book. I am not a GA collector so have no idea what it should go for or not, but just stating my opinion. Being picky myself, I would be really disappointed in seeing that stain.

[Bomber-Bob]

I would think if the seller offered the prospective buyer the chance to back out of the deal completely with no mention of "punishment" then this is a non-issue IMHO.

 

 

 

-slym

 

This is what I was just wondering about as well. Did Bob KNOW you meant you were going to nominate him if he backed out or was that discussed AFTER he chose that option?

 

I believe so. It was his idea

 

Dan, I am disappointed too. I'm having trouble understanding why you were not agreeable to an all cash deal, especially since I was going to pay full asking. I'm a collector, I am having a difficult time letting go of my book, does that make me a sleazeball ? Your call whether you want to call me out on the Boards.

 

 

I thought that quote from Bob was before he found out about the stain and had nothing to do with the stain that wasn't known until after grading?

 

 

It was before the stain was even an issue. If we negotiate a cash/trade deal. We both agree on the deal (and have PM's to prove it) then after that PM buyer tries to re-negotiate the deal, is that not a form of backing out. The deal wasn't cash only. Buyer approached me with the cash/trade deal. It was better than a cash only deal for me. Why would I want to change that??

 

That's how I read it. The buyer initially had "trade remorse" correct?

 

 

Except it's the least injurious trade remorse I've ever seen...to the effect of offering 100% of the originally requested cash price.

 

The offers of full cash and alternate trade tells me that Bob still really wanted the book.

 

No one offers $16k cash for something they don't want to buy.

 

Thank you.

How does this PL process work ? Do we take a vote, is there a final judgement ? How long do I have to wait before the verdict ? Thanks.

[Bio-Rupp]

I would think if the seller offered the prospective buyer the chance to back out of the deal completely with no mention of "punishment" then this is a non-issue IMHO.

 

 

 

-slym

 

This is what I was just wondering about as well. Did Bob KNOW you meant you were going to nominate him if he backed out or was that discussed AFTER he chose that option?

 

I believe so. It was his idea

 

Dan, I am disappointed too. I'm having trouble understanding why you were not agreeable to an all cash deal, especially since I was going to pay full asking. I'm a collector, I am having a difficult time letting go of my book, does that make me a sleazeball ? Your call whether you want to call me out on the Boards.

 

 

I thought that quote from Bob was before he found out about the stain and had nothing to do with the stain that wasn't known until after grading?

 

 

It was before the stain was even an issue. If we negotiate a cash/trade deal. We both agree on the deal (and have PM's to prove it) then after that PM buyer tries to re-negotiate the deal, is that not a form of backing out. The deal wasn't cash only. Buyer approached me with the cash/trade deal. It was better than a cash only deal for me. Why would I want to change that??

 

That's how I read it. The buyer initially had "trade remorse" correct?

 

 

Except it's the least injurious trade remorse I've ever seen...to the effect of offering 100% of the originally requested cash price.

 

The offers of full cash and alternate trade tells me that Bob still really wanted the book.

 

No one offers $16k cash for something they don't want to buy.

 

I can see the truth in that... but we really don't know what was up on the trade part of the table do we?

[comix4fun]

So the stain shows up, the seller is not budging on 16k or the buyer doesn't want a book with a stain on it?

 

Lots of us would be picky on a book like this with a stain and a 16K price tag. The notes are saying this stain runs the length of the book. This is what kind of baffles me. I've had books just hammered for a tiny dot sized stain.

 

I totally agree. If I could even afford a 16k book right now, I would be more than picky about it's condition and I would make more than sure it's exactly what I would want. I am just curious if the seller hasn't made another offer. The seller clearly didn't realize the stain was there, and from what pics I have seen, it was a really hard defect to spot.

 

IF it was me (and I hate doing what if's) I would express my disappointment as a buyer and decline altogether and look for a more desirable copy.

 

IF I was the seller, I would totally discount my price based on what CGC has issued. Or unslab it completely and have it as a raw sale.

 

I don't buy/sell comics. I am just a collector and not in the "business". But I could see how this is a surprise to EVERYBODY and it seems to me the classy thing to do would be discount the price or hold on to the book and resell it.

 

I really cannot see how any one person is backing out of this deal in a bad way.

 

Why would I discount a book because it has a stain. CGC graded it an 8.0 WITH the stain. They didn't miss it.

 

And for the record, I don't consider myself a dealer. Just a guy who likes to buy and sell (thumbs u

 

 

I don't blame you for missing that stain. You didn't have it in hand or go through it to closely when you did have it (as you mentioned). Anyone could have missed that stain.

 

Many people consider stains in the same distasteful vein as rusty staples and foxing.

Thus not all books in the same grade are really the same.

 

As a seller if I even potentially, somewhat, intimated that there was no stain, I don't know if I could hold a buyer to his end of the deal if my description turned out to be incorrect even if I was only stating an opinion. People make decisions based on the claims and opinions of sellers. If I turned out to be dead wrong I could not imagine holding my customer liable to hit a moving target of a description.

 

 

 

[DR.X]

Except it's the least injurious trade remorse I've ever seen...to the effect of offering 100% of the originally requested cash price.

 

The offers of full cash and alternate trade tells me that Bob still really wanted the book.

 

No one offers $16k cash for something they don't want to buy.

 

I agree. I don't think it matters how the deal was construced. Cash, cash and trade, or gold dubloons. It's the staining on the book that killed the deal.

[MetalPSI]

I would think if the seller offered the prospective buyer the chance to back out of the deal completely with no mention of "punishment" then this is a non-issue IMHO.

 

 

 

-slym

 

This is what I was just wondering about as well. Did Bob KNOW you meant you were going to nominate him if he backed out or was that discussed AFTER he chose that option?

 

I believe so. It was his idea

 

Dan, I am disappointed too. I'm having trouble understanding why you were not agreeable to an all cash deal, especially since I was going to pay full asking. I'm a collector, I am having a difficult time letting go of my book, does that make me a sleazeball ? Your call whether you want to call me out on the Boards.

 

 

I thought that quote from Bob was before he found out about the stain and had nothing to do with the stain that wasn't known until after grading?

 

 

It was before the stain was even an issue. If we negotiate a cash/trade deal. We both agree on the deal (and have PM's to prove it) then after that PM buyer tries to re-negotiate the deal, is that not a form of backing out. The deal wasn't cash only. Buyer approached me with the cash/trade deal. It was better than a cash only deal for me. Why would I want to change that??

 

That's how I read it. The buyer initially had "trade remorse" correct?

 

 

Except it's the least injurious trade remorse I've ever seen...to the effect of offering 100% of the originally requested cash price.

 

The offers of full cash and alternate trade tells me that Bob still really wanted the book.

 

No one offers $16k cash for something they don't want to buy.

 

I can see the truth in that... but we really don't know what was up on the trade part of the table do we?

 

Good point. But is that a huge factor? (IE any of anyone but the buyer and sellers business?)

 

The buyer obviously offered the seller something they wanted....

 

 

[erazer]

 

I don't blame you for missing that stain. You didn't have it in hand or go through it to closely when you did have it (as you mentioned). Anyone could have missed that stain.

 

Many people consider stains in the same distasteful vein as rusty staples and foxing.

Thus not all books in the same grade are really the same.

 

As a seller if I even potentially, somewhat, intimated that there was no stain I don't know if I could hold a buyer to his end of the deal if my description turned out to be incorrect even if I was only stating an opinion. People make decisions based on the claims and opinions of sellers. If I turned out to be dead wrong I could not imagine holding my customer liable to hit a moving target of a description.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you've said. This is a home purchase situation. The sale was made, the contract was signed, but the inspector found a cracked foundation.

[HarveySwick]

I don't blame you for missing that stain. You didn't have it in hand or go through it to closely when you did have it (as you mentioned). Anyone could have missed that stain.

 

Many people consider stains in the same distasteful vein as rusty staples and foxing.

Thus not all books in the same grade are really the same.

 

As a seller if I even potentially, somewhat, intimated that there was no stain I don't know if I could hold a buyer to his end of the deal if my description turned out to be incorrect even if I was only stating an opinion. People make decisions based on the claims and opinions of sellers. If I turned out to be dead wrong I could not imagine holding my customer liable to hit a moving target of a description.

 

[comix4fun]

I would think if the seller offered the prospective buyer the chance to back out of the deal completely with no mention of "punishment" then this is a non-issue IMHO.

 

 

 

-slym

 

This is what I was just wondering about as well. Did Bob KNOW you meant you were going to nominate him if he backed out or was that discussed AFTER he chose that option?

 

I believe so. It was his idea

 

Dan, I am disappointed too. I'm having trouble understanding why you were not agreeable to an all cash deal, especially since I was going to pay full asking. I'm a collector, I am having a difficult time letting go of my book, does that make me a sleazeball ? Your call whether you want to call me out on the Boards.

 

 

I thought that quote from Bob was before he found out about the stain and had nothing to do with the stain that wasn't known until after grading?

 

 

It was before the stain was even an issue. If we negotiate a cash/trade deal. We both agree on the deal (and have PM's to prove it) then after that PM buyer tries to re-negotiate the deal, is that not a form of backing out. The deal wasn't cash only. Buyer approached me with the cash/trade deal. It was better than a cash only deal for me. Why would I want to change that??

 

That's how I read it. The buyer initially had "trade remorse" correct?

 

 

Except it's the least injurious trade remorse I've ever seen...to the effect of offering 100% of the originally requested cash price.

 

The offers of full cash and alternate trade tells me that Bob still really wanted the book.

 

No one offers $16k cash for something they don't want to buy.

 

I can see the truth in that... but we really don't know what was up on the trade part of the table do we?

 

No, we don't know. I am not sure it's particularly relevant what the trade was if we are trying to divine the buyer's motivations in the deal as a whole. On the whole, his willingness to pay full retail price for the book speaks pretty clearly to overall motivation. That's why I mentioned it.

 

The description of the book DID change from the time the deal was made to the time the book was graded however. That opinion about not thinking the "stain" was a "stain" is a much bigger deal in terms of meeting of the minds for me.

 

I am not sure we can have a description with that material part change in the grading process and not impute any responsibility on the seller for missing it and claiming an opinion to the contrary in the negotiation process.

[MetalPSI]

 

I don't blame you for missing that stain. You didn't have it in hand or go through it to closely when you did have it (as you mentioned). Anyone could have missed that stain.

 

Many people consider stains in the same distasteful vein as rusty staples and foxing.

Thus not all books in the same grade are really the same.

 

As a seller if I even potentially, somewhat, intimated that there was no stain I don't know if I could hold a buyer to his end of the deal if my description turned out to be incorrect even if I was only stating an opinion. People make decisions based on the claims and opinions of sellers. If I turned out to be dead wrong I could not imagine holding my customer liable to hit a moving target of a description.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you've said. This is a home purchase situation. The sale was made, the contract was signed, but the inspector found a cracked foundation.

 

Yeah but in this case you just can't go to CGC and say, HEY, you gotta fix this stain you found.

 

In your analogy someone comes along and fixes the foundation (or does a shoddy patch job and unloads it on someone else) regardless if the buyer backs out or keeps the place.

 

Oh, and I agree with comix4fun too

[comix4fun]

 

I don't blame you for missing that stain. You didn't have it in hand or go through it to closely when you did have it (as you mentioned). Anyone could have missed that stain.

 

Many people consider stains in the same distasteful vein as rusty staples and foxing.

Thus not all books in the same grade are really the same.

 

As a seller if I even potentially, somewhat, intimated that there was no stain I don't know if I could hold a buyer to his end of the deal if my description turned out to be incorrect even if I was only stating an opinion. People make decisions based on the claims and opinions of sellers. If I turned out to be dead wrong I could not imagine holding my customer liable to hit a moving target of a description.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you've said. This is a home purchase situation. The sale was made, the contract was signed, but the inspector found a cracked foundation.

 

Yeah but in this case you just can't go to CGC and say, HEY, you gotta fix this stain you found.

 

In your analogy someone comes along and fixes the foundation (or does a shoddy patch job and unloads it on someone else) regardless if the buyer backs out or keeps the place.

 

Oh, and I agree with comix4fun too

 

 

I think he was just referring to the fact that an inspector finding a material flaw in the agreed upon item invalidates the agreement and allows the parties to rescind the deal without penalty to either party.

[erazer]

 

I don't blame you for missing that stain. You didn't have it in hand or go through it to closely when you did have it (as you mentioned). Anyone could have missed that stain.

 

Many people consider stains in the same distasteful vein as rusty staples and foxing.

Thus not all books in the same grade are really the same.

 

As a seller if I even potentially, somewhat, intimated that there was no stain I don't know if I could hold a buyer to his end of the deal if my description turned out to be incorrect even if I was only stating an opinion. People make decisions based on the claims and opinions of sellers. If I turned out to be dead wrong I could not imagine holding my customer liable to hit a moving target of a description.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you've said. This is a home purchase situation. The sale was made, the contract was signed, but the inspector found a cracked foundation.

 

Yeah but in this case you just can't go to CGC and say, HEY, you gotta fix this stain you found.

 

In your analogy someone comes along and fixes the foundation (or does a shoddy patch job and unloads it on someone else) regardless if the buyer backs out or keeps the place.

 

Oh, and I agree with comix4fun too

 

I don't know that repairability is relevant in the analogy. The owner has more access and more information, but not complete information. The buyer is mostly in the dark. A third party comes in and points out a problem that neither knew about. Regardless of whether the damage can be repaired, the buyer can attempt renegotiate or completely

back out.

 

If the owner is left completely holding the bag with a home that's irreparable or costs too much to fix, that's not the buyer's problem.

[Iceman399]

 

I don't blame you for missing that stain. You didn't have it in hand or go through it to closely when you did have it (as you mentioned). Anyone could have missed that stain.

 

Many people consider stains in the same distasteful vein as rusty staples and foxing.

Thus not all books in the same grade are really the same.

 

As a seller if I even potentially, somewhat, intimated that there was no stain I don't know if I could hold a buyer to his end of the deal if my description turned out to be incorrect even if I was only stating an opinion. People make decisions based on the claims and opinions of sellers. If I turned out to be dead wrong I could not imagine holding my customer liable to hit a moving target of a description.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you've said. This is a home purchase situation. The sale was made, the contract was signed, but the inspector found a cracked foundation.

 

Yeah but in this case you just can't go to CGC and say, HEY, you gotta fix this stain you found.

 

In your analogy someone comes along and fixes the foundation (or does a shoddy patch job and unloads it on someone else) regardless if the buyer backs out or keeps the place.

 

Oh, and I agree with comix4fun too

 

 

I think he was just referring to the fact that an inspector finding a material flaw in the agreed upon item invalidates the agreement and allows the parties to rescind the deal without penalty to either party.

 

If that is part of the initial offer ie will buy the house pending an inspection. Sometimes a house is sold as is.

 

I think the best option is for Dan and Bob to take a breather and see it from each other's point of view.

[Spider-Dan]

I just want to re-post one of my early posts in this thread...

 

Bob seems like a nice guy, so I hate that it has to come to this. I don't do a lot of trading, and I was kind of enjoying it.

 

But their are consequences for our actions. If their weren't, people would back out all the time.

[MetalPSI]

 

I don't blame you for missing that stain. You didn't have it in hand or go through it to closely when you did have it (as you mentioned). Anyone could have missed that stain.

 

Many people consider stains in the same distasteful vein as rusty staples and foxing.

Thus not all books in the same grade are really the same.

 

As a seller if I even potentially, somewhat, intimated that there was no stain I don't know if I could hold a buyer to his end of the deal if my description turned out to be incorrect even if I was only stating an opinion. People make decisions based on the claims and opinions of sellers. If I turned out to be dead wrong I could not imagine holding my customer liable to hit a moving target of a description.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you've said. This is a home purchase situation. The sale was made, the contract was signed, but the inspector found a cracked foundation.

 

Yeah but in this case you just can't go to CGC and say, HEY, you gotta fix this stain you found.

 

In your analogy someone comes along and fixes the foundation (or does a shoddy patch job and unloads it on someone else) regardless if the buyer backs out or keeps the place.

 

Oh, and I agree with comix4fun too

 

 

I think he was just referring to the fact that an inspector finding a material flaw in the agreed upon item invalidates the agreement and allows the parties to rescind the deal without penalty to either party.

 

Yeah I need to go to bed.

 

sorry erazer

[jsilverjanet]

so what happens next. It seems both parties have people in their corner but nothing that really matters (I don't think a vote takes place for these things or do they?) both parties need to come to some resolution, correct?

 

 

[erazer]

 

sorry erazer

 

No problem. I didn't explain it.

[HarveySwick]

so what happens next. It seems both parties have people in their corner but nothing that really matters (I don't think a vote takes place for these things or do they?) both parties need to come to some resolution, correct?

 

Yeah, because there is no vote for PL right, only HOS? What does happen next?

[Bio-Rupp]

Not really anything to do with the conversation at hand (or maybe it does), but a comparison of apples and oranges.

 

Dan's copy raw...that is now a slabbed 8.0

 

 

 

Sparkle City's copy that sold on 6/23/13 for almost $14,500...

 

 

 

Sparkle City's copy sports lesser page quality ( the last sale reported on GPA is the one with lesser page quality )as well as the possible Marvel chipping at the top of cover. Definitely a lesser copy compared to Dan's.

 

Again this is nothing against Bob, but perhaps he is really wanting a 8.5+ copy of this book for an 8.0 price. Looking at these two examples (no serial # listed on GPA of the last sale)... I really don't see what he's going to find in this price range that's any better

Edited January 29, 2014 by Bio-Rupp

[Bomber-Bob]

BTW, I am surprised Dan brought me up on Probation. The fact is the denied stain is there. Before the pics of the slabbed book and the notes I had no intention if backing out of the deal. Look at the prefaces to my offers.....

'First, the deal as structured is fine with me, no problems, I just think you may like this better = more cash.'

'Dan, just thinking out loud here. Unfortunately, the delay in the execution of the transaction has me thinking too much. If I were to simply offer to pay the full cash amount for the book, and eliminate the trade portion, would you consider this a renege on the deal ? Just to be clear, the full 16K with no fees. '

'Is there any other ideas out there that can satisfy us both = another book that can take the place of the FF1 ? '.