Manufactured Gold

[mica]

You are so much fun to mess with.

[FFB]

You are so much fun to mess with.

 

Maybe, but why do you care? That's my deep thought of the day.

[Ze-man]

CGC collectors are too stupid to realize that they can crack their books out and resubmit them for higher grades.

 

If you're me, Don't look like the opposite of I .

 

 

That is Deep Scott, very deep.

[FFB]

CGC collectors are too stupid to realize that they can crack their books out and resubmit them for higher grades.

 

If you're me, Don't look like the opposite of I .

 

 

 

I like dressing up in big, frilly dresses. I ask my wife to call me Shirley. I wear a wig. Would you like to pet my hamster?

 

Kenny, you're scaring me.

[Ze-man]

CGC collectors are too stupid to realize that they can crack their books out and resubmit them for higher grades.

 

If you're me, Don't look like the opposite of I .

 

 

 

I like dressing up in big, frilly dresses. I ask my wife to call me Shirley. I wear a wig. Would you like to pet my hamster?

 

Kenny, you're scaring me.

 

Hey, I didnt make up one word in that quote, I just left out..a few....well ok QUITE a few words.

 

And my name is NOT Shirley

 

I prefer Betty Sue, and I also like making paper hats out of old comics.

 

 

[Filter81]

How about a little notation on the back of the label that reads:

 

Things ignored upon submission: Pressing, Disassembly, Staple Replacement & Restoration Removal

 

That would solve the problem for me.

 

I happen to be a big supporter of CGC. I have been since the day I got back into collecting comics. Steve Borock and several positive interactions I had with him early on is actually one of the main reasons I chose to make buying & selling comics my career.

 

While I understand the pros and cons of whether or not CGC should publish its grading standards, I definitely don't think its too much to ask that they at least let us know what is and what isn't considered restoration according to them.

 

I was very confused when Steve made that post about CGC never considering disassembly to be restoration. (Though I was equally surprised by some of the harsher more unwarranted criticisms that his post received, and I would understand if Steve decided not to post further on the subject at this time.)

 

However, Matt Nelson apparently publicly said that if he ever got caught popping a staple open on a book it would be given a PLOD. I would imagine that a good percentage of the books discussed in this thread were worked on by Matt at some point considering this is part of how he makes a living, and I would be downright shocked if Matt didn't know what CGC does and doesn't consider restoration by now. So what does that mean to the rest of us?

 

Were we intentionally misled regarding what is or what isn't considered restoration by CGC? Did CGC change the rules at some point mid-stream? I happen to have a great deal of respect for both Steve Borock and Matt Nelson, but what each of them said seems to directly contradict what the other said. So who is correct? Is it really so much to ask that we know what CGC is attempting to detect during the restoration checks we pay for?

 

I have owned books in the past that were given green labels with the only notation being "Staples replaced." Well, if temporarily removing the staples and then adding them back is no longer restoration.. how can you tell if the staples were simply temporarily removed or replaced altogether? Would those green label books get blue labels today?

 

I had a beautiful Superman 10 once, CGC 9.2 Larson, given a green label because the staples were cleaned. Should those staples be removed and replaced with uncleaned vintage staples? Would that give it a blue label today? Does removing and replacing the staples completely somehow constitute less restoration than simply cleaning them?

 

If some people are given a "cheat sheet" regarding how to turn purple and green labels into blue ones, and others aren't, then it can hardly be called impartial third party grading...

 

I'm always going to support CGC because I feel an imperfect CGC is much better than a hobby with no CGC at all. But as a buyer of their product.. as someone who has spent 7 figures a year the past several years buying CGC books, I feel personally disrespected by these recent events. I get a queasy feeling in my stomach every time i see a 6.5 restored become a 7.5 unrestored, or a 4.0 turns into a 9.0.

 

And personally, I won't feel any differently until CGC comes out and at the very least says "This is how we determine whether a book has been restored or not."

[Sal]

CGC collectors are too stupid to realize that they can crack their books out and resubmit them for higher grades.

 

If you're going to quote me, quote the whole sentence. Don't quote part of the sentence that makes it look like I've said the opposite of what I actually said.

 

oh, you should have gone with something like, "i guess that's the only part of the sentence mica agrees with. i wonder why mica hates CGC collectors so much"

 

that would have been a total buuuuuuuuuuuuurn

[Filter81]

How about a little notation on the back of the label that reads:

 

Things ignored upon submission: Pressing, Disassembly, Staple Replacement & Restoration Removal

 

 

Or better yet... what about CGC's idea to make a distinction between restoration and conservation?

 

I didn't much like the idea the first time I heard it, but it seems that is what CGC is doing now anyway. (Except instead of labeling a book conserved, they just label it universal and its up to us to figure out what, if anything, has been done to a book.)

 

Why not make a separate catagory, Red labels, for conserved books. "Book is unrestored. Conservation includes pressing, dry cleaning, and re-assembly".. and let the market determine the value. Easy way to find out whether most collectors really do care or not...

[Silver Surfer]

How about a little notation on the back of the label that reads:

 

Things ignored upon submission: Pressing, Disassembly, Staple Replacement & Restoration Removal

 

 

Or better yet... what about CGC's idea to make a distinction between restoration and conservation?

 

I didn't much like the idea the first time I heard it, but it seems that is what CGC is doing now anyway. (Except instead of labeling a book conserved, they just label it universal and its up to us to figure out what, if anything, has been done to a book.)

 

Why not make a separate catagory, Red labels, for conserved books. "Book is unrestored. Conservation includes pressing, dry cleaning, and re-assembly".. and let the market determine the value. Easy way to find out whether most collectors really do care or not...

 

Perhaps their marketing director has some answers? It would be a great move if they addressed this once and for all so at least we know where they stand. Whether we agree with them can be debated but I'd wish they set a formal framework for discussion. Same goes for their grading criteria.

[Sal]

How about a little notation on the back of the label that reads:

 

Things ignored upon submission: Pressing, Disassembly, Staple Replacement & Restoration Removal

 

 

Or better yet... what about CGC's idea to make a distinction between restoration and conservation?

 

I didn't much like the idea the first time I heard it, but it seems that is what CGC is doing now anyway. (Except instead of labeling a book conserved, they just label it universal and its up to us to figure out what, if anything, has been done to a book.)

 

Why not make a separate catagory, Red labels, for conserved books. "Book is unrestored. Conservation includes pressing, dry cleaning, and re-assembly".. and let the market determine the value. Easy way to find out whether most collectors really do care or not...

 

to take it a step further, why not put everything in blue labels? or why not just put Restored and Conserved in purple, but with more information on the label? wasn't "more information on the label" supposed to happen sometime soon anyway?

[Matt Nelson]

I think there's a big motivator for resubmissions that's being missed here, which is set building. The slabbed comic market hasn't yet matured to a level where the registry plays a crucial role, but make no mistake that right now there are plenty of people feverishly working to put together the best set of whatever titles they collect.

 

If someone has assembled a full run of a title, but there's one or two issues that fall short of the desired grade, you can bet there will be resubmissions.

 

I think someone asked about my policy returning CGC labels. I absolutely return all of them to keep the census as accurate as possible, and I strongly urge everyone else to do the same if they ever have labels laying around.

[Red Hook]

I didn't get the label back for the Avengers 28 9.4 PC you pressed.

[esquirecomics]

The fact that CGC has chosen to permit resubmission is not based on their fallacies as human beings, but understandably on the profits that they derive from the practice.

 

There are 3010 certified copies of Hulk 181. How in the world is CGC supposed to determine when another copy is submitted whether they've already certified it or not?

 

There is likely no possible way using your example, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the point that was being discussed.

 

Now that's the silliest thing you've said all day. The discussion of why CGC has chosen to permit resubmission is completely moot, as it would be virtually impossible for them to not permit it.

 

So the multitude of HG pedigree copies that have passed through their hands on different occasions is not trackable?

 

In any event, we were not talking solutions to the issue, we were talking about the fact that it is promoted quietly rather than overtly and the impact that has in creating certain views.

 

What is CGC supposed to do? Advertise on their website, "Hey, our 9.4 today isn't necessarily our 9.4 tomorrow! Send your book back in for grading and see if you might have a 9.6!"

 

Get real.

 

So it was perfectly fine for CGC's business folks to privately tell the dealers and major collectors that they wanted, expected and anticipated having people challenge them on grades and "argue" for higher grades in the form of resubmission but NOT tell the community that this is what is going on? What a great level playing field.

 

And I have said many times before, personally, I find resubmission to be counterproductive to the integrity and reputation of CGC. That's me. You can agree. You can disagree. For CGC's sake, they should hope more people disagree with me than agree, or at least that those who disagree have more money.

[esquirecomics]

The fact that CGC has chosen to permit resubmission is not based on their fallacies as human beings, but understandably on the profits that they derive from the practice.

 

There are 3010 certified copies of Hulk 181. How in the world is CGC supposed to determine when another copy is submitted whether they've already certified it or not?

 

There is likely no possible way using your example, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the point that was being discussed.

 

Now that's the silliest thing you've said all day. The discussion of why CGC has chosen to permit resubmission is completely moot, as it would be virtually impossible for them to not permit it.

 

So the multitude of HG pedigree copies that have passed through their hands on different occasions is not trackable?

 

In any event, we were not talking solutions to the issue, we were talking about the fact that it is promoted quietly rather than overtly and the impact that has in creating certain views.

 

When the "multitudes" of HG pedigree copies are compared to the vast number of non-pedigrees submitted, your multitudes become a drop in the bucket, and I'm talking a very large bucket.

 

I can't figure out what you want when it comes to the resub issue. You say you weren't talking about solutions, so what's the point of discussing it?

 

I forgot Jeff that you are one of the people who hates to discuss problems if no solutions are referenced at the same time. Forgive me.

 

I agree with other posters that resubbing is so obvious that there's no need for CGC to promote it.

 

Good for you. I disagree.

 

The idea that they've "quietly promoted it" is pure supposition on your part, and shouldn't be stated as fact.

 

You have no clue what you are talking about. Have you listened to the tape recordings of the sessions CGC had with certain dealers/collectors as it was beginning operations? I doubt it. On the other hand, I have personally listened to the tapes. It was stated emphatically and clearly. There was no mistakening it.

 

So, with all due respect, don't tell me what is fact or supposition when you have no idea what is either.

[esquirecomics]

I think someone asked about my policy returning CGC labels. I absolutely return all of them to keep the census as accurate as possible, and I strongly urge everyone else to do the same if they ever have labels laying around.

 

I think it is great that you return the labels. It is in everyone's best interests to keep the census accurate.

 

At what point in time do you return the labels? With the book? Or separately?

[Ze-man]

I think someone asked about my policy returning CGC labels. I absolutely return all of them to keep the census as accurate as possible, and I strongly urge everyone else to do the same if they ever have labels laying around.

 

I think it is great that you return the labels. It is in everyone's best interests to keep the census accurate.

 

At what point in time do you return the labels? With the book? Or separately?

 

Gee Mark, is that a rhetorical question?

 

Ze-

[Davenport]

 

Or better yet... what about CGC's idea to make a distinction between restoration and conservation?

 

I didn't much like the idea the first time I heard it, but it seems that is what CGC is doing now anyway. (Except instead of labeling a book conserved, they just label it universal and its up to us to figure out what, if anything, has been done to a book.)

 

Why not make a separate catagory, Red labels, for conserved books. "Book is unrestored. Conservation includes pressing, dry cleaning, and re-assembly".. and let the market determine the value. Easy way to find out whether most collectors really do care or not...

You can kinda...sorta...maybe...cobble together a glimps of what's "restoration" between those old proposed label modifications and what's been coming to light.

 

Proposed CGC Label Modifications

 

"For a staple cleaning or replacement to be deemed conservation, it must have been performed to prolong the life of the book. For example, evidence on a book of rust at staple area tells that the staple had elevated deterioration. If a staple is replaced for aesthetic reasons only, the book will be qualified."

 

If a staple is replaced for aesthetic reasons only, the book will be qualified.

 

And if it's not done just for appearance??...

Since there is no Conservation label that leaves only..."not restored", I suppose.

So things pop up like that cover and 1st five wraps getting paper-tucked under a staple, the 4.0 to 9.0 paper-tucked leap, and MasterChief's connected dots.

And it's probably not an unreasonable assumption to think "marketing partners" probably had the inside skinny on where those borders lie from the get-go, but who knows.

[Matt Nelson]

I think someone asked about my policy returning CGC labels. I absolutely return all of them to keep the census as accurate as possible, and I strongly urge everyone else to do the same if they ever have labels laying around.

 

I think it is great that you return the labels. It is in everyone's best interests to keep the census accurate.

 

At what point in time do you return the labels? With the book? Or separately?

 

Either. Several factors go into the decision to submit books with or without tags. But regardless CGC gets their tag in the end.

[Matt Nelson]

I didn't get the label back for the Avengers 28 9.4 PC you pressed.

 

Okay, I'll check for it. If I have it, do you want it back, or sent to CGC?

[THE_BEYONDER]

How about a little notation on the back of the label that reads:

 

Things ignored upon submission: Pressing, Disassembly, Staple Replacement & Restoration Removal

 

 

Or better yet... what about CGC's idea to make a distinction between restoration and conservation?

 

I didn't much like the idea the first time I heard it, but it seems that is what CGC is doing now anyway. (Except instead of labeling a book conserved, they just label it universal and its up to us to figure out what, if anything, has been done to a book.)

 

Why not make a separate catagory, Red labels, for conserved books. "Book is unrestored. Conservation includes pressing, dry cleaning, and re-assembly".. and let the market determine the value. Easy way to find out whether most collectors really do care or not...

 

Pressing is not a form of conservation.

 

Pressing is a form of restoration by the very definition of the term. If not for the 'Detection Clause', noone would even attempt to argue otherwise.

 

Book gets non color-breaking creases on the back cover from the spinner-rack. Resto expert removes those creases with pressing. The book has now been 'restored' to the state the book was in prior to being displayed for sale on said spinner-rack.

 

It's not rocket science.....