Manufactured Gold

[infinite_comics-migration]

The issue here is not whether disassembly is restoration, but whether CGC can spot it.

 

I beg to differ.

 

Please explain.

 

Read this thread - that's what all the outcry is about.

 

Edit: start here (if this link works)

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/sho...rue#Post1433580

[Matt Nelson]

The issue here is not whether disassembly is restoration, but whether CGC can spot it.

 

I beg to differ.

 

Please explain.

 

Read this thread - that's what all the outcry is about.

 

Edit: start here (if this link works)

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/sho...rue#Post1433580

 

But, and correct me if I'm wrong here, because there are parts of the thread I didn't read--didn't Steve say the reason the Sensation got through is because they didn't see any evidence of disassembly?

[Red Hook]

But again....read this.....from Steve....same day....same thread.....

 

 

 

 

There is no restoration to be found here.

 

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book.

 

Explain this please......Steve is clearly saying that as long as you put the same staples back.....you're in the clear. It leads one to assume, again that CGC will let disassembled pressing fly.

 

Now, either this is true, or CGC really needs that new PR person I've been suggesting. Anyway, gotta' run. Thanks.

[Matt Nelson]

But again....read this.....from Steve....same day....same thread.....

 

 

 

 

There is no restoration to be found here.

 

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book.

 

Explain this please......Steve is clearly saying that as long as you put the same staples back.....you're in the clear. It leads one to assume, again that CGC will let disassembled pressing fly.

 

Now, either this is true, or CGC really needs that new PR person I've been suggesting.

 

Well he's right. These books go in qualified holders, not restored ones. This doesn't fly in the face of CGC's opinion that disassembly is not restoration.

 

And saying someone is in the clear implys that they have the green light to disassemble any book and they'll get away with it. I don't think this is the message Steve sent at all. He was explaining one book's situation, and then stating that disassembly is not restoration, but a qualification. If you disassemble, you don't get purple...but you don't get blue either. You get green.

 

All I'm saying is that purple, green, whatever...they all mean less value than blue, so that threat should curb most attempts to disassemble.

[Red Hook]

Still here...(I knew I wasn't gonna make a clean getaway)..but the book Steve was referring to...the Sensation Comics #35 ..ended up in a blue holder.......apparently with CGC's blessing. And Steve defended CGC's decision to put it in that blue holder, even when faced with indisputable evidence that it had been disassembled.

[infinite_comics-migration]

And saying someone is in the clear implys that they have the green light to disassemble any book and they'll get away with it.

 

This is correct, as long as you reassemble it correctly.

 

I don't think this is the message Steve sent at all.

 

You're in the minority on this one.

 

He was explaining one book's situation, and then stating that disassembly is not restoration, but a qualification. If you disassemble, you don't get purple...but you don't get blue either. You get green.

 

No, you get Blue!

[mica]

How dare you guys talk directly to Matt without praising him for being here, and thanking him with loads of these. ((( )))

 

The "it don't bother me" crowd will be here shortly to make sure only softballs get thrown his way.

 

I always like to see who bats first when they show up in a quasi-rotation.

[infinite_comics-migration]

How dare you guys talk directly to Matt without praising him for being here, and thanking him with loads of these. ((( )))

 

The "it don't bother me" crowd will be here shortly to make sure only softballs get thrown his way.

 

I always like to see who bats first when they show up in a quasi-rotation.

 

TTH2, Nearmint, LearnedHand and FFB will be by shortly

 

I wish Red wasn't leaving, he always seems to say what I want to, but much more objectively, without the sarcasm. I give Red the

[Matt Nelson]

Still here...(I knew I wasn't gonna make a clean getaway)..but the book Steve was referring to...the Sensation Comics #35 ..ended up in a blue holder.......apparently with CGC's blessing. And Steve defended CGC's decision to put it in that blue holder, even when faced with indisputable evidence that it had been disassembled.

 

But Steve defended CGC's position to put it in a blue holder when they did not suspect disassembly.

 

All I'm saying is that the mere threat of anything but blue label should discourage disassembly for most. There seems to be a fear on the boards that the comments made will cause a flood of disassembled books getting through CGC. I think a lot of what is being discussed here is from the past, and constitutes a small % of overall CGC books.

[Matt Nelson]

And saying someone is in the clear implys that they have the green light to disassemble any book and they'll get away with it.

 

This is correct, as long as you reassemble it correctly.

 

Do you think it's smart for someone to risk a qualified grade by trying this? I don't think you're factoring in risk here.

[Red Hook]

Seriously, last post.....(post shower).....

 

I do believe someone who is supremely confident in their skills would risk it. Absolutely.

 

[Matt Nelson]

Seriously, last post.....(post shower).....

 

I do believe someone who is supremely confident in their skills would risk it. Absolutely.

 

 

Supremely confident = getting blue labels on their disassembled books all the time. If that person exists, than I guess you have a point. I myself do not have that confidence.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Seriously, last post.....(post shower).....

 

I do believe someone who is supremely confident in their skills would risk it. Absolutely.

 

 

Exactly right Red. I said it before, and I'll mention it here again for Matt's sake: Look at the Ewert FF # 3 as prime evidence of this.

 

Ewert (assuming it was he who bought it off of Heritage) paid $3,800 for a QUALIFIED (Staples Cleaned) CGC 9.0.

 

Ignoring the Trimming that was done to the book post-purchase, the Heritage buyer must have felt pretty confident that he could reassemble the book and sneak it by CGC. Obviously, he paid top, top dollar for a GREEN label (a very nice Blue label FF # 3 in CGC 8.5 just sold for $3,400 on ebay, a year and half after the sale on Heritage).

 

Not only did he get away with the trimming, but also the reassembly.

 

That's why I don't buy this "threat of getting a green label" argument as a deterrant, because we have direct and irrefutable evidence that green labels can easily be turned back into blue labels with CGC's blessing.

[Matt Nelson]

Seriously, last post.....(post shower).....

 

I do believe someone who is supremely confident in their skills would risk it. Absolutely.

 

 

Exactly right Red. I said it before, and I'll mention it here again for Matt's sake: Look at the Ewert FF # 3 as prime evidence of this.

 

Ewert (assuming it was he who bought it off of Heritage) paid $3,800 for a QUALIFIED (Staples Cleaned) CGC 9.0.

 

Ignoring the Trimming that was done to the book post-purchase, the Heritage buyer must have felt pretty confident that he could reassemble the book and sneak it by CGC. Obviously, he paid top, top dollar for a GREEN label (a very nice Blue label FF # 3 in CGC 8.5 just sold for $3,400 on ebay, a year and half after the sale on Heritage).

 

Not only did he get away with the trimming, but also the reassembly.

 

That's why I don't buy this "threat of getting a green label" argument as a deterrant, because we have direct and irrefutable evidence that green labels can easily be turned back into blue labels with CGC's blessing.

 

But he didn't get away with it. He got busted, and in a big way. The guy has been banished from comics! And he has to pay back all of the money he made off of trimming. Seems to me he didn't get away with anything...

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Seriously, last post.....(post shower).....

 

I do believe someone who is supremely confident in their skills would risk it. Absolutely.

 

 

Exactly right Red. I said it before, and I'll mention it here again for Matt's sake: Look at the Ewert FF # 3 as prime evidence of this.

 

Ewert (assuming it was he who bought it off of Heritage) paid $3,800 for a QUALIFIED (Staples Cleaned) CGC 9.0.

 

Ignoring the Trimming that was done to the book post-purchase, the Heritage buyer must have felt pretty confident that he could reassemble the book and sneak it by CGC. Obviously, he paid top, top dollar for a GREEN label (a very nice Blue label FF # 3 in CGC 8.5 just sold for $3,400 on ebay, a year and half after the sale on Heritage).

 

Not only did he get away with the trimming, but also the reassembly.

 

That's why I don't buy this "threat of getting a green label" argument as a deterrant, because we have direct and irrefutable evidence that green labels can easily be turned back into blue labels with CGC's blessing.

 

But he didn't get away with it. He got busted, and in a big way. The guy has been banished from comics! And he has to pay back all of the money he made off of trimming. Seems to me he didn't get away with anything...

 

But Matt, who caught him?

 

CGC? Ah, no. They gave the book a blue label and sent it on its merry way.

 

That's the argument here....what CGC can or can't, will or won't label/consider to be Restoration.

 

And this is why I don't buy your theory. From my point of view, for Ewert to have paid that much for that book in a Green Label, he had to be relatively confident that it would return from CGC in a blue labeled holder.

 

What are we to infer from this, other then:

 

1). Ewert was just lucky the day CGC missed both the reassembly and trimming.

2). Ewert knew the CGC game and knew how to play it (and thus, wasn't really worried about CGC flagging it for either).

 

Considering how long he got away with it, and that it wasn't actually CGC that caught him in the act, # 2 seems a lot more logical to me.

[Silver Surfer]

Seriously, last post.....(post shower).....

 

I do believe someone who is supremely confident in their skills would risk it. Absolutely.

 

 

Exactly right Red. I said it before, and I'll mention it here again for Matt's sake: Look at the Ewert FF # 3 as prime evidence of this.

 

Ewert (assuming it was he who bought it off of Heritage) paid $3,800 for a QUALIFIED (Staples Cleaned) CGC 9.0.

 

Ignoring the Trimming that was done to the book post-purchase, the Heritage buyer must have felt pretty confident that he could reassemble the book and sneak it by CGC. Obviously, he paid top, top dollar for a GREEN label (a very nice Blue label FF # 3 in CGC 8.5 just sold for $3,400 on ebay, a year and half after the sale on Heritage).

 

Not only did he get away with the trimming, but also the reassembly.

 

That's why I don't buy this "threat of getting a green label" argument as a deterrant, because we have direct and irrefutable evidence that green labels can easily be turned back into blue labels with CGC's blessing.

 

But he didn't get away with it. He got busted, and in a big way. The guy has been banished from comics! And he has to pay back all of the money he made off of trimming. Seems to me he didn't get away with anything...

 

I think Ewart was banned and Brutalo footed the bill on the refunds. Is there more too it than that?

 

"I think a lot of what is being discussed here is from the past, and constitutes a small % of overall CGC books. "

 

Unfortunantely its usually the more expensive and precious ones that get hit.

[Matt Nelson]

Seriously, last post.....(post shower).....

 

I do believe someone who is supremely confident in their skills would risk it. Absolutely.

 

 

Exactly right Red. I said it before, and I'll mention it here again for Matt's sake: Look at the Ewert FF # 3 as prime evidence of this.

 

Ewert (assuming it was he who bought it off of Heritage) paid $3,800 for a QUALIFIED (Staples Cleaned) CGC 9.0.

 

Ignoring the Trimming that was done to the book post-purchase, the Heritage buyer must have felt pretty confident that he could reassemble the book and sneak it by CGC. Obviously, he paid top, top dollar for a GREEN label (a very nice Blue label FF # 3 in CGC 8.5 just sold for $3,400 on ebay, a year and half after the sale on Heritage).

 

Not only did he get away with the trimming, but also the reassembly.

 

That's why I don't buy this "threat of getting a green label" argument as a deterrant, because we have direct and irrefutable evidence that green labels can easily be turned back into blue labels with CGC's blessing.

 

But he didn't get away with it. He got busted, and in a big way. The guy has been banished from comics! And he has to pay back all of the money he made off of trimming. Seems to me he didn't get away with anything...

 

But Matt, who caught him?

 

CGC? Ah, no. They gave the book a blue label and sent it on its merry way.

 

That's the argument here....what CGC can or can't, will or won't label/consider to be Restoration.

 

And this is why I don't buy your theory. From my point of view, for Ewert to have paid that much for that book in a Green Label, he had to be relatively confident that it would return from CGC in a blue labeled holder.

 

What are we to infer from this, other then:

 

1). Ewert was just lucky the day CGC missed both the reassembly and trimming.

2). Ewert knew the CGC game and knew how to play it (and thus, wasn't really worried about CGC flagging it for either).

 

Considering how long he got away with it, and that it wasn't actually CGC that caught him in the act, # 2 seems a lot more logical to me.

 

Does it really matter who caught him? The point is he didn't get away with it. I'd like to think some sort of precedent was set by the Ewert scandal that would greatly raise the stakes for anyone else thinking about doing the same thing. I think the boards working in tandem with CGC is the best thing.

 

Whether CGC can or can't catch it--I don't see the argument. They perform to the best of their ability. They are human and make mistakes, but they're the best thing out there. Either use their service, or if you don't believe in their ability, then don't use it.

 

Whether CGC will or won't label it restoration can be debated here, and I have absolutely no problem with that. Grading standards are constantly evolving, and this is the perfect forum to discuss and work towards a better system. Just because CGC doesn't get on here to explain everything doesn't mean they're not listening. I bet based on this string alone they will be cracking down on disassembly.

 

Ultimately it sounds to me like you will never have faith in CGC, regardless of what is said. If I am wrong, please explain to me what it would take for them to make you a believer again.

[Matt Nelson]

Seriously, last post.....(post shower).....

 

I do believe someone who is supremely confident in their skills would risk it. Absolutely.

 

 

Exactly right Red. I said it before, and I'll mention it here again for Matt's sake: Look at the Ewert FF # 3 as prime evidence of this.

 

Ewert (assuming it was he who bought it off of Heritage) paid $3,800 for a QUALIFIED (Staples Cleaned) CGC 9.0.

 

Ignoring the Trimming that was done to the book post-purchase, the Heritage buyer must have felt pretty confident that he could reassemble the book and sneak it by CGC. Obviously, he paid top, top dollar for a GREEN label (a very nice Blue label FF # 3 in CGC 8.5 just sold for $3,400 on ebay, a year and half after the sale on Heritage).

 

Not only did he get away with the trimming, but also the reassembly.

 

That's why I don't buy this "threat of getting a green label" argument as a deterrant, because we have direct and irrefutable evidence that green labels can easily be turned back into blue labels with CGC's blessing.

 

But he didn't get away with it. He got busted, and in a big way. The guy has been banished from comics! And he has to pay back all of the money he made off of trimming. Seems to me he didn't get away with anything...

 

I think Ewart was banned and Brutalo footed the bill on the refunds. Is there more too it than that?

 

"I think a lot of what is being discussed here is from the past, and constitutes a small % of overall CGC books. "

 

Unfortunantely its usually the more expensive and precious ones that get hit.

 

Yes, the more expensive books are certainly a bigger target.

 

I'd like to think Tom will try to extract the money from Jason in some way. Tom's a nice guy, but not that nice!

[Flaming_Telepath]

Does it really matter who caught him?

 

Actually, in the context of this argument, it's the only thing that matters. CGC did not flag the disassembly and staple replacement because (a) they were played by a dealer who 'knew the score' and (b) they do not use a database for prior submissions.

 

The point is that Ewert knew how to get things past CGC...and the FF #3 is a 100%, perfect example of that. The fact that he didn't know how to get it past the talent on the boards is another thing entirely and please don't confuse the two.

 

Next you'll be telling us that 'certification works'.

 

...but they're the best thing out there.

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Whether CGC can or can't catch it--I don't see the argument.

 

I believe the argument, as put forward by you, was:

 

Do you think it's smart for someone to risk a qualified grade by trying this? I don't think you're factoring in risk here.

 

I'm saying there is little risk involved if you logically examine and extrapolate Ewert's motivations and actions for buying the FF # 3, and what Steve Borock said on this thread. I did my first deal with Ewert in 1993, and have always considered him to be a very sharp guy. I don't believe he would have forked out the $3,800 for that FF # 3 if he didn't KNOW (with a high degree of certainty) that with the proper tweaking it would return with a blue label.

 

So, again, I doubt this whole "risk of disassembly being caught" thing is more then a few weeks old, and if books are flagged with greater regularity, it will be in response to this thread (as you suggest) and not to some standing principle at CGC that has been in place for over a year or more.

 

Likewise, after the Trimming incident, CGC went a little overboard with what they considered to be trimming or not. I purchased an original owner FF # 13 that had been graded in the weeks after the Ewert scandal and had been given a Restored/Trimmed designation. A subsequent resub a few months later, and the book was now in a blue holder (which was the right call). In that case, CGC was a little too sensitive to the trimming issue and the orignal submitter paid the price for it.

 

Ultimately it sounds to me like you will never have faith in CGC, regardless of what is said. If I am wrong, please explain to me what it would take for them to make you a believer again.

 

Yeah, I just bought $6,000 worth of slabbed books this month because of a lack of faith.