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man did this guy get screwed....

Started by Calidream'n,

74 posts in this topic

Theagenes

Theagenes

Posted
Posted
it's in a purple label because that's the only option.

 

 

green labels are for otherwise HG books that have a single, giant flaw that would otherwise bring the grade down, like a popped staple or an autographed cover.

 

 

trimming won't fit the GLOD criteria, because it's an artificial flaw, put there to improve the appearance of the book.

 

 

ugh. i hate the :censored: green label. hate it. hate it. hate it.

 

 

 

 

it seems to me that colour touch could ostensibly also fall into the "non-conservative" restoration techniques, and should be treated the same as trimming. it's not there to ensure no further damage happens to the book, it's stuff added later to improve the appearance of the book without regard to structural integrity, unlike, say, tear seals

 

But color touch, if done professionally, does not harm the book. That is a big difference. Really there are three basic categories of restoration:

 

Harmful restoration:

Trimming

Reglossing

Bleaching pages

Non-archival tape

Some types of glue

 

Restoration that neither harms nor improves the integrity of the book:

Professional color touch

Aqueous cleaning

archival tape

pressing

 

Restoration that helps conserve the integrity of the book:

tear seals

spine/staple reinforcement

deacidification

 

Some of these techniques may fall in more than one category depending on how they are used, but you get the idea.

 

I would be willing to call trimming restoration, as long as it's preceded by an adjective like "harmful." :)

 

 

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G.A.tor

G.A.tor

Posted
Posted
Trimming is not resto.

 

Trimming is destruction.

 

Keep track, we may see this one again.

I agree that trimming does not "add" anything to the book, but rather removes part of the original book...that said, the "intent" in trimming is to make the comic look better...the "intent" on restoration, is to make the comic look better.... the "intent" on pressing, is to the make the comic look better...

 

so, by laymans terms, all 3 are "restoration in nature", but comic book terms, only restoring is "restoring" where as pressing and trimming are not "restoration, as defined by comic book accepted terms"... my head hurts

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Sal

Sal

Posted
Posted

 

it seems to me that colour touch could ostensibly also fall into the "non-conservative" restoration techniques, and should be treated the same as trimming. it's not there to ensure no further damage happens to the book, it's stuff added later to improve the appearance of the book without regard to structural integrity, unlike, say, tear seals

 

But color touch, if done professionally, does not harm the book. That is a big difference. Really there are three basic categories of restoration:

 

 

so what you're saying is that my posit actually makes sense, but only for amateur colour touch.

 

good :thumbsup:

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Theagenes

Theagenes

Posted
Posted

 

it seems to me that colour touch could ostensibly also fall into the "non-conservative" restoration techniques, and should be treated the same as trimming. it's not there to ensure no further damage happens to the book, it's stuff added later to improve the appearance of the book without regard to structural integrity, unlike, say, tear seals

 

But color touch, if done professionally, does not harm the book. That is a big difference. Really there are three basic categories of restoration:

 

 

so what you're saying is that my posit actually makes sense, but only for amateur colour touch.

 

good :thumbsup:

 

Yes, I would think most amateur ct is harmful, especially if you're talking about markers that bleed through, etc. But professional ct with acrylic is not harmful and can often be removed.

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Old Fashion PB and J

Old Fashion PB and J

Posted
Posted
Trimming is not resto.

 

Trimming is destruction.

 

Keep track, we may see this one again.

I agree that trimming does not "add" anything to the book, but rather removes part of the original book...that said, the "intent" in trimming is to make the comic look better...the "intent" on restoration, is to make the comic look better.... the "intent" on pressing, is to the make the comic look better...

 

so, by laymans terms, all 3 are "restoration in nature", but comic book terms, only restoring is "restoring" where as pressing and trimming are not "restoration, as defined by comic book accepted terms"... my head hurts

 

I still will not accept it as resto. It is not any type of conservation method, or an attempt to "restore" a book. Trimming is simply the removal of material to try and gain a better appearance. And the worst part is most professional restoration can be undone to return the book to an unaltered state, where as this method can NEVER be reversed.

 

That being said the same can be said for chemical cleaning.

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ChasingKingKirby

ChasingKingKirby

Posted
Posted
Trimming is not resto.

 

Trimming is destruction.

 

Keep track, we may see this one again.

I agree that trimming does not "add" anything to the book, but rather removes part of the original book...that said, the "intent" in trimming is to make the comic look better...the "intent" on restoration, is to make the comic look better.... the "intent" on pressing, is to the make the comic look better...

 

so, by laymans terms, all 3 are "restoration in nature", but comic book terms, only restoring is "restoring" where as pressing and trimming are not "restoration, as defined by comic book accepted terms"... my head hurts

 

And only ONE of the two is labeled as Restoration because only ONE of them is detectable by CGC. (Unless of course a waffle iron is used to press without silicone release paper...)

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Old Fashion PB and J

Old Fashion PB and J

Posted
Posted
Trimming is not resto.

 

Trimming is destruction.

 

Keep track, we may see this one again.

I agree that trimming does not "add" anything to the book, but rather removes part of the original book...that said, the "intent" in trimming is to make the comic look better...the "intent" on restoration, is to make the comic look better.... the "intent" on pressing, is to the make the comic look better...

 

so, by laymans terms, all 3 are "restoration in nature", but comic book terms, only restoring is "restoring" where as pressing and trimming are not "restoration, as defined by comic book accepted terms"... my head hurts

 

And only ONE of the two is labeled as Restoration because only ONE of them is detectable by CGC. (Unless of course a waffle iron is used to press without silicone release paper...)

 

Lets push this further :baiting:

 

Restoration is generally a practice to preserve or return the appearance of an otherwise worn piece.

 

Pressing when used for conservation is restoration, but still more along the lines of preservation.

 

Pressing a book for no reason other than to change aesthetics and improve the grade (appearance secondary). Is IMO more about deception than it is, restoration or conservation.

 

Trimming a book is another form that I would just consider deception. Altering the appearance for monetary gain. And there are no reasons to trim a book. If the edges need to be cleaned up, restoration would be a much more logical process over destruction.

 

But the latter two remind us of the importance of the almighty dollar.

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Old Fashion PB and J

Old Fashion PB and J

Posted
Posted
He could try a resub to see if CGC doesn't think its trimmed that time.
Or crack it and sell it raw. Which leads to my "we may see this again" statement.

 

Personally I think trimmed books should be destroyed. The chances of someone getting the screws in the future are way too high.

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Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted

 

God I love Ebay! Whenever I'm feeling a little off, I can always count on some person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed on ebay to post something like this to cheer me up!!! :roflmao:

 

Not sure where this level of amusement comes from? (shrug)

 

The book is not restored...trimming is not considered restoration (and it's not, actually, as nothing is actually being restored), it's damage, so he's telling no lies here.

 

His asking price is out of whack, but if we highlighted every overpriced item on eBay, we'd being having 2,000 new threads started every day. doh!

 

I'm easily amused and I disagree, trimming IS restoration. The book has been altered from it's original state to artificially inflate the grade. Restoration.

 

Well, there's two different ways of looking at this...

 

The industry way, which as CGC has determined is to view trimming as destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Or the literal way (which is the way I prefer to view things), meaning to put something back to the way it was, which therefore leads to trimming being destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Look at it this way...you have an antique car with a dog of a rear fender. You remove the fender. Is this restoration? (shrug)

 

What trimming actually is is an attempt to improve the appearance of a book for the purposes of financial gain...but that does not automatically define it as restoration.

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Jeffro.

Jeffro.

Posted
Posted
The fact of the matter is that CGC does not consider trimming to be restoration. Notice that on the label there is no designation of Slight Amateur and the word "Trimmed" does not appear where the work is normally listed on a restored book, but rather off to the side. The only reason they put it in a purple label is as a punishment. Thus they are implying that the purple label is a negative thing and by association any restoration should be viewed as a negative thing.

 

oooh, CGC is into punishment hm and they are cheaper than my dominatrix. ^^

 

 

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ChasingKingKirby

ChasingKingKirby

Posted
Posted

 

God I love Ebay! Whenever I'm feeling a little off, I can always count on some person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed on ebay to post something like this to cheer me up!!! :roflmao:

 

Not sure where this level of amusement comes from? (shrug)

 

The book is not restored...trimming is not considered restoration (and it's not, actually, as nothing is actually being restored), it's damage, so he's telling no lies here.

 

His asking price is out of whack, but if we highlighted every overpriced item on eBay, we'd being having 2,000 new threads started every day. doh!

 

I'm easily amused and I disagree, trimming IS restoration. The book has been altered from it's original state to artificially inflate the grade. Restoration.

 

Well, there's two different ways of looking at this...

 

The industry way, which as CGC has determined is to view trimming as destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Or the literal way (which is the way I prefer to view things), meaning to put something back to the way it was, which therefore leads to trimming being destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Look at it this way...you have an antique car with a dog of a rear fender. You remove the fender. Is this restoration? (shrug)

 

What trimming actually is is an attempt to improve the appearance of a book for the purposes of financial gain...but that does not automatically define it as restoration.

 

The fender analogy doesn't fly. I can SEE if the fender is missing. Robojo's hands are apparently steady enough to cleave a half a millimeter of paper in a straight line. THAT I can't see. I think were splitting hairs, "destruction", "restoration", "conservation". The book has been screwed with. And I wanna know about it if I'm the buyer so I can make an informed decision. So I'm okay with the PLOD in all those cases. If pressing was detectable same thing, PLOD it. Unfortunately, for the most part it's undetectable.

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Flaming_Telepath

Flaming_Telepath

Posted
Posted

 

God I love Ebay! Whenever I'm feeling a little off, I can always count on some person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed on ebay to post something like this to cheer me up!!! :roflmao:

 

Not sure where this level of amusement comes from? (shrug)

 

The book is not restored...trimming is not considered restoration (and it's not, actually, as nothing is actually being restored), it's damage, so he's telling no lies here.

 

His asking price is out of whack, but if we highlighted every overpriced item on eBay, we'd being having 2,000 new threads started every day. doh!

 

I'm easily amused and I disagree, trimming IS restoration. The book has been altered from it's original state to artificially inflate the grade. Restoration.

 

Well, there's two different ways of looking at this...

 

The industry way, which as CGC has determined is to view trimming as destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Or the literal way (which is the way I prefer to view things), meaning to put something back to the way it was, which therefore leads to trimming being destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Look at it this way...you have an antique car with a dog of a rear fender. You remove the fender. Is this restoration? (shrug)

 

What trimming actually is is an attempt to improve the appearance of a book for the purposes of financial gain...but that does not automatically define it as restoration.

 

The fender analogy doesn't fly. I can SEE if the fender is missing. Robojo's hands are apparently steady enough to cleave a half a millimeter of paper in a straight line. THAT I can't see. I think were splitting hairs, "destruction", "restoration", "conservation". The book has been screwed with. And I wanna know about it if I'm the buyer so I can make an informed decision. So I'm okay with the PLOD in all those cases. If pressing was detectable same thing, PLOD it. Unfortunately, for the most part it's undetectable.

 

Oh, no argument there...all of these things should be highlighted in the most obvious ways...and a purple label seems to work pretty damned well. (thumbs u

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ChasingKingKirby

ChasingKingKirby

Posted
Posted

 

God I love Ebay! Whenever I'm feeling a little off, I can always count on some person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed on ebay to post something like this to cheer me up!!! :roflmao:

 

Not sure where this level of amusement comes from? (shrug)

 

The book is not restored...trimming is not considered restoration (and it's not, actually, as nothing is actually being restored), it's damage, so he's telling no lies here.

 

His asking price is out of whack, but if we highlighted every overpriced item on eBay, we'd being having 2,000 new threads started every day. doh!

 

I'm easily amused and I disagree, trimming IS restoration. The book has been altered from it's original state to artificially inflate the grade. Restoration.

 

Well, there's two different ways of looking at this...

 

The industry way, which as CGC has determined is to view trimming as destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Or the literal way (which is the way I prefer to view things), meaning to put something back to the way it was, which therefore leads to trimming being destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Look at it this way...you have an antique car with a dog of a rear fender. You remove the fender. Is this restoration? (shrug)

 

What trimming actually is is an attempt to improve the appearance of a book for the purposes of financial gain...but that does not automatically define it as restoration.

 

The fender analogy doesn't fly. I can SEE if the fender is missing. Robojo's hands are apparently steady enough to cleave a half a millimeter of paper in a straight line. THAT I can't see. I think were splitting hairs, "destruction", "restoration", "conservation". The book has been screwed with. And I wanna know about it if I'm the buyer so I can make an informed decision. So I'm okay with the PLOD in all those cases. If pressing was detectable same thing, PLOD it. Unfortunately, for the most part it's undetectable.

 

Oh, no argument there...all of these things should be highlighted in the most obvious ways...and a purple label seems to work pretty damned well. (thumbs u

 

And we have a consensus of two. lol

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Theagenes

Theagenes

Posted
Posted

 

God I love Ebay! Whenever I'm feeling a little off, I can always count on some person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed on ebay to post something like this to cheer me up!!! :roflmao:

 

Not sure where this level of amusement comes from? (shrug)

 

The book is not restored...trimming is not considered restoration (and it's not, actually, as nothing is actually being restored), it's damage, so he's telling no lies here.

 

His asking price is out of whack, but if we highlighted every overpriced item on eBay, we'd being having 2,000 new threads started every day. doh!

 

I'm easily amused and I disagree, trimming IS restoration. The book has been altered from it's original state to artificially inflate the grade. Restoration.

 

Well, there's two different ways of looking at this...

 

The industry way, which as CGC has determined is to view trimming as destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Or the literal way (which is the way I prefer to view things), meaning to put something back to the way it was, which therefore leads to trimming being destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Look at it this way...you have an antique car with a dog of a rear fender. You remove the fender. Is this restoration? (shrug)

 

What trimming actually is is an attempt to improve the appearance of a book for the purposes of financial gain...but that does not automatically define it as restoration.

 

The fender analogy doesn't fly. I can SEE if the fender is missing. Robojo's hands are apparently steady enough to cleave a half a millimeter of paper in a straight line. THAT I can't see. I think were splitting hairs, "destruction", "restoration", "conservation". The book has been screwed with. And I wanna know about it if I'm the buyer so I can make an informed decision. So I'm okay with the PLOD in all those cases. If pressing was detectable same thing, PLOD it. Unfortunately, for the most part it's undetectable.

 

Oh, no argument there...all of these things should be highlighted in the most obvious ways...and a purple label seems to work pretty damned well. (thumbs u

 

And we have a consensus of two. lol

 

I agree with the first part of the statement - i just think the highlighting should be in green rather than purple. :)

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ChasingKingKirby

ChasingKingKirby

Posted
Posted

 

God I love Ebay! Whenever I'm feeling a little off, I can always count on some person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed on ebay to post something like this to cheer me up!!! :roflmao:

 

Not sure where this level of amusement comes from? (shrug)

 

The book is not restored...trimming is not considered restoration (and it's not, actually, as nothing is actually being restored), it's damage, so he's telling no lies here.

 

His asking price is out of whack, but if we highlighted every overpriced item on eBay, we'd being having 2,000 new threads started every day. doh!

 

I'm easily amused and I disagree, trimming IS restoration. The book has been altered from it's original state to artificially inflate the grade. Restoration.

 

Well, there's two different ways of looking at this...

 

The industry way, which as CGC has determined is to view trimming as destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Or the literal way (which is the way I prefer to view things), meaning to put something back to the way it was, which therefore leads to trimming being destruction, rather than restoration.

 

Look at it this way...you have an antique car with a dog of a rear fender. You remove the fender. Is this restoration? (shrug)

 

What trimming actually is is an attempt to improve the appearance of a book for the purposes of financial gain...but that does not automatically define it as restoration.

 

The fender analogy doesn't fly. I can SEE if the fender is missing. Robojo's hands are apparently steady enough to cleave a half a millimeter of paper in a straight line. THAT I can't see. I think were splitting hairs, "destruction", "restoration", "conservation". The book has been screwed with. And I wanna know about it if I'm the buyer so I can make an informed decision. So I'm okay with the PLOD in all those cases. If pressing was detectable same thing, PLOD it. Unfortunately, for the most part it's undetectable.

 

Oh, no argument there...all of these things should be highlighted in the most obvious ways...and a purple label seems to work pretty damned well. (thumbs u

 

And we have a consensus of two. lol

 

I agree with the first part of the statement - i just think the highlighting should be in green rather than purple. :)

 

Agree to disagree on that portion then. I just think that a trim job is MUCH more egregious than a staple pull and therefore needs the PLOD rather than the slightly less offensive GLOD.

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Old Fashion PB and J

Old Fashion PB and J

Posted
Posted

Green label is generally for defects such as staple pops, missing staple, loose centerfold, and staples replaced. I dont see why trimming would be a defect.

 

It should be a black label with a BIG X across the cover. Do everyone a solid.

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Mio

Mio

Posted
Posted
The fact of the matter is that CGC does not consider trimming to be restoration. Notice that on the label there is no designation of Slight Amateur and the word "Trimmed" does not appear where the work is normally listed on a restored book, but rather off to the side. The only reason they put it in a purple label is as a punishment. Thus they are implying that the purple label is a negative thing and by association any restoration should be viewed as a negative thing.

 

CGC is not supposed to be make moral judgements on the type of work that is done to books. They are supposed to impartially describe the condition of the book so that buyers can form their own opinions. By using the purple label as a punitive measure CGC is basically agreeing with those who say that the purple label creates an unfair stigma on restored books. They are clearly using it themselves to intentially stigmatize a certain type of book.

 

The green Qualified label was created for the purpose of describing books that otherwise appear to be high grade, but have a significant flaw that is not readily apparent to the eye in a slab, such as a clipped coupon, missing page or replaced staples. Trimming is exactly the type of flaw for which the qualified grade was created.

 

 

rantrant

 

:thumbsup:

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ChasingKingKirby

ChasingKingKirby

Posted
Posted
The fact of the matter is that CGC does not consider trimming to be restoration. Notice that on the label there is no designation of Slight Amateur and the word "Trimmed" does not appear where the work is normally listed on a restored book, but rather off to the side. The only reason they put it in a purple label is as a punishment. Thus they are implying that the purple label is a negative thing and by association any restoration should be viewed as a negative thing.

 

CGC is not supposed to be make moral judgements on the type of work that is done to books. They are supposed to impartially describe the condition of the book so that buyers can form their own opinions. By using the purple label as a punitive measure CGC is basically agreeing with those who say that the purple label creates an unfair stigma on restored books. They are clearly using it themselves to intentially stigmatize a certain type of book.

 

The green Qualified label was created for the purpose of describing books that otherwise appear to be high grade, but have a significant flaw that is not readily apparent to the eye in a slab, such as a clipped coupon, missing page or replaced staples. Trimming is exactly the type of flaw for which the qualified grade was created.

 

 

rantrant

 

:thumbsup:

 

Well apparently, regardless of what CGC may say, they DO, because this book is in a PLOD and not a GLOD.

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Ze-man

Ze-man

Posted
Posted
The fact of the matter is that CGC does not consider trimming to be restoration. Notice that on the label there is no designation of Slight Amateur and the word "Trimmed" does not appear where the work is normally listed on a restored book, but rather off to the side. The only reason they put it in a purple label is as a punishment. Thus they are implying that the purple label is a negative thing and by association any restoration should be viewed as a negative thing.

 

CGC is not supposed to be make moral judgements on the type of work that is done to books. They are supposed to impartially describe the condition of the book so that buyers can form their own opinions. By using the purple label as a punitive measure CGC is basically agreeing with those who say that the purple label creates an unfair stigma on restored books. They are clearly using it themselves to intentially stigmatize a certain type of book.

 

The green Qualified label was created for the purpose of describing books that otherwise appear to be high grade, but have a significant flaw that is not readily apparent to the eye in a slab, such as a clipped coupon, missing page or replaced staples. Trimming is exactly the type of flaw for which the qualified grade was created.

 

 

rantrant

 

:thumbsup:

 

I think it all comes down to CGC simply not wanting to qualify trimming as an acceptable flaw. Even though it was destructive when a kid cut out a Marvel Stamp years ago he did not improve the appearance of the comic by doing so, unlike trimming.

 

So giving the greenlight(no pun intended) that all trimmed books would get qualified labels is a slippery slope for obvious reasons.

 

And I seriously doubt CGC used the purple label as punitive measures, but rather to make sure the buyer took notice the cover was trimmed, and they are limited in other color choices. I kind of agree with Pat, a seperate label for trimmed books is not a bad idea.(except for the part about marking the book with a big X :sick:)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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