Signed Pedigrees.....Good, Bad, or Just Plain Ugly?

[Guest Grails]

I do not agree with pedigrees being altered in ANY way. If the book is altered the designation should become a moot point since the history of the book has been altered.

 

I think this is actually the best point I've heard so far. I don't think I'd want a pedigree book if it wasn't the org owner like Church that had gotten the book signed. It does change the history of the book because now you need to explain to the next buyer "yes I got it signed, not Mr. Church"

 

Once again, you can not change history. Also, I'm pretty sure you won't need to explain to the buyer that Edgar Church didn't have the book SS'd.

 

Hey you never know. Some people know very little about pedigrees.

 

Edgar buys book, Chuckles acquires book after its sat many years in a beautiful state. Its sent to CGC and gets the ped. Years later a signature is added by "neatstuff" So I guess more history has been added?

 

You have altered the state of the book after it left the orig owner which kind of wrecks the pedigree for me.

 

Good point and no arguement there against your opinion. Something was added and I can see how that would turn off a lot of people.

[MedicAR]

Edgar buys book, Chuckles acquires book after its sat many years in a beautiful state. Its sent to CGC and gets the ped. Years later a signature is added by "neatstuff" So I guess more history has been added?

 

You have altered the state of the book after it left the orig owner which kind of wrecks the pedigree for me.

 

I like the idea that more history has been added, it hadn't really occurred to me.

 

As far as "wrecking the pedigree," which is more important? Where the book came from and who previously owned it? Or the book itself in high grade with the signature of one of its creators and a recognized master on it?

 

This has always been my hang up with pedigrees. Yes it's interesting that they were part of a "famous" collection, but ultimately it comes down to the actual book, it's condition, and what I can afford. If I've got two very similar books with the same grade and similar eye appeal, but one is a pedigree and costs 10% more, I'm going with the cheap one every time.

[Transplant]

I think some of it boils down to why is a pedigree important to you? If it's b/c they are some of/the highest graded copies, then SS is less likely to bother you. If it's b/c the story behind the collection is important, chances are SS might put you off.

 

Does everyone here know the story of the Reilly collection? It was a young man who collected. When he enlisted to fight in WWII, he asked his parents to continue buying comics for him. They did. He was KIA. His parents locked his room up for years.

 

To me, having a Reilly collection books SS'd would be even more troublesome than a Church book. I don't like either one being changed though.

[Transplant]

If I've got two very similar books with the same grade and similar eye appeal, but one is a pedigree and costs 10% more, I'm going with the cheap one every time.

On behalf of pedigrees fans who don't like signatures on them, please do.

[supapimp]

just wait till i get these pedigrees signed by JRSR.

 

pac coast

 

bowling green

[DarkKnightReturns]

The more I think about it the more i dislike pedigree books being signed. No disrespect to the artists, obviously I love them or I wouldn't be collecting.

 

Take for example the Okajima ped that was collected by a young girl in an internment camp. So lets say you have all these books piled in front of you with this incredible story and one of them has been signed. WTF? Who signed her book? Oh no she didn't get it signed, Joe Smith did years and years later.

 

Some people collect peds for their rich history and I think getting them signed takes away from that a little bit.

 

I guess the bottomline though is whoever is the owner/caretaker/whatever they can ultimately do what they want with the book.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I guess we could really base my opinion off that I AM a pedigree collector. I have examples from many of the different collections, always pay a premium, and would not even press one. I consider it to be maintaing the history of the book. Pedigrees are book that were purchased off the rack and left in an unaltered state for years. Once they have been alter it loses luster. And extreme example would be this. Just because you own the Mona Lisa does that give you the right to add your signature to the painting? I guess it does, but realisticlly it has been defaced. And while my example is VERY extreme, it is the one I choose. I buy pedigrees and consider myself more of a custodian for a few years than I do the owner. When my collection goes someone else will own the book. Hopefully they can keep the book preserved as well or better than I have so it may be appreciated for future generations.

 

And I see no reason whatsoever that another HG copy could not be purchased and used for a SS book. I love SS books, but I wouldnt have a ped signed. I just dont feel it is something I should be doing. I care more about the history of the hobby than I do my personal collection.

[DarkKnightReturns]

I guess we could really base my opinion off that I AM a pedigree collector. I have examples from many of the different collections, always pay a premium, and would not even press one. I consider it to be maintaing the history of the book. Pedigrees are book that were purchased off the rack and left in an unaltered state for years. Once they have been alter it loses luster. And extreme example would be this. Just because you own the Mona Lisa does that give you the right to add your signature to the painting? I guess it does, but realisticlly it has been defaced. And while my example is VERY extreme, it is the one I choose. I buy pedigrees and consider myself more of a custodian for a few years than I do the owner. When my collection goes someone else will own the book. Hopefully they can keep the book preserved as well or better than I have so it may be appreciated for future generations.

 

And I see no reason whatsoever that another HG copy could not be purchased and used for a SS book. I love SS books, but I wouldnt have a ped signed. I just dont feel it is something I should be doing. I care more about the history of the hobby than I do my personal collection.

 

great points here

 

 

 

[Lebowski]

I guess we could really base my opinion off that I AM a pedigree collector. I have examples from many of the different collections, always pay a premium, and would not even press one. I consider it to be maintaing the history of the book. Pedigrees are book that were purchased off the rack and left in an unaltered state for years. Once they have been alter it loses luster. And extreme example would be this. Just because you own the Mona Lisa does that give you the right to add your signature to the painting? I guess it does, but realisticlly it has been defaced. And while my example is VERY extreme, it is the one I choose. I buy pedigrees and consider myself more of a custodian for a few years than I do the owner. When my collection goes someone else will own the book. Hopefully they can keep the book preserved as well or better than I have so it may be appreciated for future generations.

 

And I see no reason whatsoever that another HG copy could not be purchased and used for a SS book. I love SS books, but I wouldnt have a ped signed. I just dont feel it is something I should be doing. I care more about the history of the hobby than I do my personal collection.

 

I hate to be a stickler here, Pat, but this topic seems to bring out the worst analogies in people. Your example doesn't fit what's going on here.

 

If you want to talk Mona Lisa, you would have to ask if you would get Leonardo to sign it...but that would alter the "Louvre" pedigree.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I guess we could really base my opinion off that I AM a pedigree collector. I have examples from many of the different collections, always pay a premium, and would not even press one. I consider it to be maintaing the history of the book. Pedigrees are book that were purchased off the rack and left in an unaltered state for years. Once they have been alter it loses luster. And extreme example would be this. Just because you own the Mona Lisa does that give you the right to add your signature to the painting? I guess it does, but realisticlly it has been defaced. And while my example is VERY extreme, it is the one I choose. I buy pedigrees and consider myself more of a custodian for a few years than I do the owner. When my collection goes someone else will own the book. Hopefully they can keep the book preserved as well or better than I have so it may be appreciated for future generations.

 

And I see no reason whatsoever that another HG copy could not be purchased and used for a SS book. I love SS books, but I wouldnt have a ped signed. I just dont feel it is something I should be doing. I care more about the history of the hobby than I do my personal collection.

 

I hate to be a stickler here, Pat, but this topic seems to bring out the worst analogies in people. Your example doesn't fit what's going on here.

 

If you want to talk Mona Lisa, you would have to ask if you would get Leonardo to sign it...but that would alter the "Louvre" pedigree.

It has nothing to do with who signed it. Same as when you have a pedigree signed, who cares if the guy drew,colored,inked,wrote the book. That wasnt the point of the book getting the designation it did.

[MedicAR]

Does everyone here know the story of the Reilly collection? It was a young man who collected. When he enlisted to fight in WWII, he asked his parents to continue buying comics for him. They did. He was KIA. His parents locked his room up for years.

 

Take for example the Okajima ped that was collected by a young girl in an internment camp. So lets say you have all these books piled in front of you with this incredible story and one of them has been signed. WTF? Who signed her book? Oh no she didn't get it signed, Joe Smith did years and years later.

 

Here are two examples of pedigrees I've never heard of. In all fairness, I'm not a pedigree collector or fan, so I don't delve into the different pedigrees that exist.

 

Both are interesting. Both add something special to the book, but how many books out there have similar histories without a special designation? If the dealer who originally purchased these books from the family hadn't taken note of the stories behind them, they would just be another HG copy that we consider ourselves lucky to have available.

[Lebowski]

I guess we could really base my opinion off that I AM a pedigree collector. I have examples from many of the different collections, always pay a premium, and would not even press one. I consider it to be maintaing the history of the book. Pedigrees are book that were purchased off the rack and left in an unaltered state for years. Once they have been alter it loses luster. And extreme example would be this. Just because you own the Mona Lisa does that give you the right to add your signature to the painting? I guess it does, but realisticlly it has been defaced. And while my example is VERY extreme, it is the one I choose. I buy pedigrees and consider myself more of a custodian for a few years than I do the owner. When my collection goes someone else will own the book. Hopefully they can keep the book preserved as well or better than I have so it may be appreciated for future generations.

 

And I see no reason whatsoever that another HG copy could not be purchased and used for a SS book. I love SS books, but I wouldnt have a ped signed. I just dont feel it is something I should be doing. I care more about the history of the hobby than I do my personal collection.

 

I hate to be a stickler here, Pat, but this topic seems to bring out the worst analogies in people. Your example doesn't fit what's going on here.

 

If you want to talk Mona Lisa, you would have to ask if you would get Leonardo to sign it...but that would alter the "Louvre" pedigree.

It has nothing to do with who signed it. Same as when you have a pedigree signed, who cares if the guy drew,colored,inked,wrote the book. That wasnt the point of the book getting the designation it did.

 

I think, for this argument, who signed it has EVERYTHING to do with it, actually.

 

And perhaps this is where my non-love for pedigrees stems from, in that the collector has taken precedence over the creator. Just doesn't make sense to me, ESPECIALLY when we are talking about a master like Frazetta.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Does everyone here know the story of the Reilly collection? It was a young man who collected. When he enlisted to fight in WWII, he asked his parents to continue buying comics for him. They did. He was KIA. His parents locked his room up for years.

 

Take for example the Okajima ped that was collected by a young girl in an internment camp. So lets say you have all these books piled in front of you with this incredible story and one of them has been signed. WTF? Who signed her book? Oh no she didn't get it signed, Joe Smith did years and years later.

 

Here are two examples of pedigrees I've never heard of. In all fairness, I'm not a pedigree collector or fan, so I don't delve into the different pedigrees that exist.

 

Both are interesting. Both add something special to the book, but how many books out there have similar histories without a special designation? If the dealer who originally purchased these books from the family hadn't taken note of the stories behind them, they would just be another HG copy that we consider ourselves lucky to have available.

There are many other collections like this, or others that have been lost. That is why you see guys who really pay attention to this stuff get bothered. It is like the Mass. collection. Many of these books were sold before the master list was created, effectively making them lost to future generations. Or another good one is the Green River books which Brad is constantly searching out, and has made decent headway in locating copies put up for auction as well as defrauding copies that are not really part of the collection.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I guess we could really base my opinion off that I AM a pedigree collector. I have examples from many of the different collections, always pay a premium, and would not even press one. I consider it to be maintaing the history of the book. Pedigrees are book that were purchased off the rack and left in an unaltered state for years. Once they have been alter it loses luster. And extreme example would be this. Just because you own the Mona Lisa does that give you the right to add your signature to the painting? I guess it does, but realisticlly it has been defaced. And while my example is VERY extreme, it is the one I choose. I buy pedigrees and consider myself more of a custodian for a few years than I do the owner. When my collection goes someone else will own the book. Hopefully they can keep the book preserved as well or better than I have so it may be appreciated for future generations.

 

And I see no reason whatsoever that another HG copy could not be purchased and used for a SS book. I love SS books, but I wouldnt have a ped signed. I just dont feel it is something I should be doing. I care more about the history of the hobby than I do my personal collection.

 

I hate to be a stickler here, Pat, but this topic seems to bring out the worst analogies in people. Your example doesn't fit what's going on here.

 

If you want to talk Mona Lisa, you would have to ask if you would get Leonardo to sign it...but that would alter the "Louvre" pedigree.

It has nothing to do with who signed it. Same as when you have a pedigree signed, who cares if the guy drew,colored,inked,wrote the book. That wasnt the point of the book getting the designation it did.

 

I think, for this argument, who signed it has EVERYTHING to do with it, actually.

 

And perhaps this is where my non-love for pedigrees stems from, in that the collector has taken precedence over the creator. Just doesn't make sense to me, ESPECIALLY when we are talking about a master like Frazetta.

 

The backstory is what makes the collection special. And Frazetta is a great artist, who wouldnt want a SS book from him? But I just ask why that one book? Why not another example? The pedigree is just another part of the hobby, and like SS collectors some people just like those books. There is nothing wrong with either one. But in all honesty when asked the original question of would I, I say no. If someone else wants to, thats fine. But I stated the same thing about pressing a ped, remove the designation. If you really need to alter the state of the book, go for it. But it should no longer be viewed any different than any other copy.

[MedicAR]

Just because you own the Mona Lisa does that give you the right to add your signature to the painting? I guess it does, but realisticlly it has been defaced.

 

I'm not going to add my signature, though. I'm adding the artist's signature. Now, if DaVinci were still alive, I'd have it signed in a heartbeat.

 

But in all honesty, we're moivng in the direction of apples and oranges again. How about if after the Mona Lisa were painted, 500,000 prints were made from it and sold. Two purchasers keeps theirs hidden away for 40 years, archivally protected. After 40 years, both sell their prints to a dealer. The delaer gets one print signed by DaVinci, the other is left alone, both continue in archival storage. We come to present day and can trace the ownership all the way back to the original owners, both are magnificent examples of the piece and of preservation. Which will bring more at auction?

 

Now don't get off onto how DaVinci had died before 40 years had passed or whatever. It's a fictional example.....

 

[DarkKnightReturns]

Does everyone here know the story of the Reilly collection? It was a young man who collected. When he enlisted to fight in WWII, he asked his parents to continue buying comics for him. They did. He was KIA. His parents locked his room up for years.

 

Take for example the Okajima ped that was collected by a young girl in an internment camp. So lets say you have all these books piled in front of you with this incredible story and one of them has been signed. WTF? Who signed her book? Oh no she didn't get it signed, Joe Smith did years and years later.

 

Here are two examples of pedigrees I've never heard of. In all fairness, I'm not a pedigree collector or fan, so I don't delve into the different pedigrees that exist.

 

Both are interesting. Both add something special to the book, but how many books out there have similar histories without a special designation? If the dealer who originally purchased these books from the family hadn't taken note of the stories behind them, they would just be another HG copy that we consider ourselves lucky to have available.

 

Info on peds and forthcoming book Comic Pedigrees

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Its still not a compatible situation. I guess we have derailed.

 

I just see no reason to use a pedigreed book for SS. If someone could explain I would listen. But realistically the only thing I can think of is some knucklehead thinks they will make more money.

[Guest Grails]

Transplant and Resurrection have made some good points. Seriously, I may reevaluate having certain peds signed in the future.

 

 

[Guardian Comics]

Does everyone here know the story of the Reilly collection? It was a young man who collected. When he enlisted to fight in WWII, he asked his parents to continue buying comics for him. They did. He was KIA. His parents locked his room up for years.

 

Take for example the Okajima ped that was collected by a young girl in an internment camp. So lets say you have all these books piled in front of you with this incredible story and one of them has been signed. WTF? Who signed her book? Oh no she didn't get it signed, Joe Smith did years and years later.

 

Here are two examples of pedigrees I've never heard of. In all fairness, I'm not a pedigree collector or fan, so I don't delve into the different pedigrees that exist.

 

Both are interesting. Both add something special to the book, but how many books out there have similar histories without a special designation? If the dealer who originally purchased these books from the family hadn't taken note of the stories behind them, they would just be another HG copy that we consider ourselves lucky to have available.

There are many other collections like this, or others that have been lost. That is why you see guys who really pay attention to this stuff get bothered. It is like the Mass. collection. Many of these books were sold before the master list was created, effectively making them lost to future generations. Or another good one is the Green River books which Brad is constantly searching out, and has made decent headway in locating copies put up for auction as well as defrauding copies that are not really part of the collection.

 

Patrick: I appreciate you putting up the good fight, but I tried it a couple of days ago and got blasted for it, so I stop arguing about it.

 

BTW all your examples have been correct so far :thumbsup:

 

Jim

[DarkKnightReturns]

Just because you own the Mona Lisa does that give you the right to add your signature to the painting? I guess it does, but realisticlly it has been defaced.

 

I'm not going to add my signature, though. I'm adding the artist's signature. Now, if DaVinci were still alive, I'd have it signed in a heartbeat.

 

But in all honesty, we're moivng in the direction of apples and oranges again. How about if after the Mona Lisa were painted, 500,000 prints were made from it and sold. Two purchasers keeps theirs hidden away for 40 years, archivally protected. After 40 years, both sell their prints to a dealer. The delaer gets one print signed by DaVinci, the other is left alone, both continue in archival storage. We come to present day and can trace the ownership all the way back to the original owners, both are magnificent examples of the piece and of preservation. Which will bring more at auction?

 

Now don't get off onto how DaVinci had died before 40 years had passed or whatever. It's a fictional example.....

 

I'm sure the signed one will but thats not the point. The point is about maintaining a well preserved OO collection of books in its original state after leaving OO