Overstreet vs. ComicPriceGuide.com

[Flaming_Telepath]

I'd also say that eBay prices are kept artificially low due to the -poor grading. Any educated bidder maxs out at most a full alpha grade below the grade claimed, unless the seller is someone like zilla4.

 

And as for the number of transactions completed elsewhere, Chuckles alone shifts a few thousand books per day.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Are you seriously suggesting that there are 14,000 transactions...per day...every single day....going on in the rest of the market in North America?

------------------------------------

 

As you pointed out, MANY of those auctions do not result in sales. It seems like the majority do not.

 

Actually, it looks like about 50/50, in the samples I ran. So, let's call it 7,000 transactions...every day. And again, this is the very slow season, and we're NOT including BINs.

 

If you're including sales of new comics in the mix, I would think so. And shouldn't volume (or $ volume), rather than individual transactions, count?

 

Yes, everything comics related counts. And if you can figure out a way to figure out dollar volume that doesn't require tedious calculation from a big enough sample, let me know.

 

I don't know how many comic shops there are left. Is it down to 500? (that seems pretty low, no?) Used to be thousands. If it's 500, you don't think they're averaging 30 transactions a day? If not, I think they're going out of business soon. I've been to Midtown comics and they do about 30 transactions a minute or two. Throw in all the shows around the country? I bought 400 comics last show I went to, I've probably bought close to 400 comics from my local shop in the last month (yes, I've been a little nuts lately). Just picked up another 30 from another shop and 20 from another shop. Yes, there's bulk buying going on on ebay too.

 

eBay is doing these transactions in every single 24 hour period. Sure, WEDNESDAY is a madhouse...but how about Monday? Tuesday? Friday?

 

After all, Golden Apple in LA...one of the biggest in the area...has had days where they have 15-20 transactions total...for the whole day. On Wednesday, they spike to 100-150.

 

I'm not entirely sure that ebay is the bulk of the comic market. Perhaps it's just my own experience has led me to buy less on ebay over the years and ready proximity to decent shops and the occasional show. I'm not convinced. It may very well be close to 50%, I dunno, but I'm not sure how to splice and dice the data you get from it. Obviously it is part of the equation. Prices in the retail setting must be impacted (lowered) by it. But you look at auction data, what about factoring in the BIN and store sales data? Slimey feedback/sellers, high shipping charges, etc. are going to skew the data down. JScomics, Zillaf, etc....sellers who are considered highly reputable and when they say something is a VF it is a VF and they do very well vs. guide....so who knows? But then again, Heritage often does poorly (as large, well known, sellers go), even when there's isn't a buyer's premium, and I don't think they grade badly. Somehow Mile High Chuck sells his wares....

 

Yes...it all averages out, doesn't it?

 

There used to be thousands of stores, now I don't know how many there are. I know that, at one point, Diamond claimed to have 10,000 accounts, but that number was wildly inflated because anybody who spent $200 with them could get "an account."

 

At the height, in 1993, there are several sources that claimed there were about 3,000-5,000 actual storefronts in the US and Canada...that number, obviously, imploded.

 

And show transactions, as I'm sure you know, account for a tiny, tiny percentage of yearly transactions.

 

PS...keep in mind also, the far, far majority of B&M stores sales is NEW books, while the vast bulk of eBay comics is back issues. When you weigh it out, and since this discussion is about back issue prices, the clear winner is eBay.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'd also say that eBay prices are kept artificially low due to the -poor grading. Any educated bidder maxs out at most a full alpha grade below the grade claimed, unless the seller is someone like zilla4.

 

Oh, please don't make me bust out the CGC examples of books that sell for less than OPG....

 

And as for the number of transactions completed elsewhere, Chuckles alone shifts a few thousand books per day.

 

A few thousand books is not a few thousand transactions. And Chuckles is the biggest retailer in North America.

 

Look, the bottom line is this: I know no one who defends OPG prices except dealers, and folks like Flying Donut have even said OPG is overpriced. The data is clear, OPG does not relfect the market as it exists, and hasn't for years. And it's not by a little, like 10% or even 20%...it's by a LOT...like 50% and more.

 

If you (the generic you) are a person who can convince people to pay you near OPG for raw books, that's AWESOME. But it speaks far more to your personal salesmanship than it does to the realism of the OPG.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Right now there are 102,000 comic books on eBay.

 

This doesn't even make any sense. Do you mean comic book auctions? In North America eBay.com, there are 73,000+ auctions, and another 62,000 BINs right now.

 

This includes BINs/store items and covers all ages, including this week's releases. Average auction length, including BINs, is at least seven days and not all of them will sell.

 

Auctions and BINs are not the same thing, so I assume you mean "average listing length." And since BINs are substantially longer in time than Auctions, which average FIVE days, I didn't include them.

 

Actually, a large chunk of them won't sell, but let's say that 70% will.

 

That's 10,000 books (including all the latest releases) sold per day.

 

And you think that the combined internet and bricks and morter outlets don't shift 10,000 books a day? I'm sorry but who is it who's just a touch ?

 

Why are you talking about "books"...?

 

No one is talking about INDIVIDUAL BOOKS.

 

Auctions. Not books. Auctions that may have ONE book, or may have 10,000 books, and everything in between.

 

And your numbers are all wrong, anyways.

 

[the blob]

well, I'd toss out the X-Men, the seller has 2 feedback

 

My gut tells me that the seller would have gotten a $7.99 - 9.99 starting bid for the Spidey as I have sold many of those in the 50s - 70s and done o.k. People shoot themselves in the foot saving a few pennies on auction fees with 99 cent starts.

 

This one sold for $7.99 + $5 s/h with water stains listed as a VG+. So, over 50% of OPG total (assuming they haven't raised the price since my old OPG):

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Amazing-Spiderman-67_W0QQitemZ160354719022QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2555e2d52e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

 

These did ok:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-60s-Spiderman-s-66-67-Comic-Book-Lot-NIce_W0QQitemZ180395375947QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a0066fd4b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

 

The Batman 186 is a krappy overpriced book in OPG. With that said, this seller got $22.50 + $7 s/h for a described 6.5 copy:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Batman-186-NOV-1966-Joker-c-New-Look-Batman_W0QQitemZ200375244483QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea74b96c3&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

 

One problem with ebay, as all know, is that for 95% of the sellers, many buyers assume an overgrade. So these fines are probably assumed to be VG/Fines or less (and probably correctly so). The buyers think they're bidding a higher % of OPG than you attribute. When they get the book they'll know if there right. What % of books that you buy on ebay are accurately graded? Ask here and I suspect most people will say less than 50%. Sure, you have the same problem in the store setting, but at least you can examine the book. Doug Sulipa had a good piece on this in one of his "I sell everything in the store for 100-300% of OPG" sales reports. Sure, I take it all with a grain of salt, but heck, people here are willing to pay a lot more for books from people they trust.

 

I don't think anyone here is claiming 100% OPG on raw books. We're arguing over which side of 50% is more realistic. Under 50% for a quick sale. Over 50% with some patience and not doing stuff like 99 cent starting prices on $30 (in OPG) items. I know some sellers swear by those 99 cent auctions, but I am not convinced.

 

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

By the way...when you include STORE inventory, too...

 

There are 1,847,000+ items for sale in the "comics" section of eBay worldwide.

 

How many of those sell in an average day?

 

Who knows?

[gaz973]

I'd also say that eBay prices are kept artificially low due to the -poor grading. Any educated bidder maxs out at most a full alpha grade below the grade claimed, unless the seller is someone like zilla4.

 

That's what I was just about to say. (thumbs u

[gaz973]

Oh, please don't make me bust out the CGC examples of books that sell for less than OPG....

 

I think there are at least as many examples of slabbed books selling for over OPG.

[the blob]

I would venture to guess the prices obtained on those store sales tend to be higher than the auction sales. They don't seem to show up in the "completed listings" search though.

 

 

[ciorac]

When determining the value of your personal collection or purchasing new books, which Guide is more accurate with their pricing and why? Overstreet or Comicpriceguide.com? I thought i'd shoot this question out to all the great folks here on the boards. I appreciate your input and opinions.

 

Neither.

 

Overstreet stopped being an accurate guide about 1990, and both Wizard and CPG clearly took the bulk of their "prices" from the OPG.

 

What has resulted is a lot of wishful thinking on the part of people who like to have something to justify the overblown prices they charge.

 

Obviously, OPG covers nothing above 9.2, is woefully overpriced for about 85% of everything it lists, and woefully underpriced on the rest.

 

Try and get $58 for a VF Rip Hunter #15, just try.

 

Or $60 for a NM- New Gods #2.

 

Or $125 for a NM- Spidey #300.

 

Or...even better...try and find a VF copy of GI Combat #87 for $553. If you do, I'll pay you double for it.

 

Or, a "NM" copy of Rawhide Kid #17, for $585. I'll pay you $1500 for one.

 

 

Will you now?

[RockMyAmadeus]

well, I'd toss out the X-Men, the seller has 2 feedback

 

You cannot "toss out" anything. That's the point of this exercise.

 

My gut tells me that the seller would have gotten a $7.99 - 9.99 starting bid for the Spidey as I have sold many of those in the 50s - 70s and done o.k. People shoot themselves in the foot saving a few pennies on auction fees with 99 cent starts.

 

Not relevant. It is what it is. For your "started at 99 cents", I can toss out your "started at a good price" examples that only have one bid. Starting at a higher price with only one bid doesn't prove that's what the item is worth...that's exactly my point! It has to start at lower than FMV, and see where it ends up, to get a real idea of FMV. I can pull out all sorts of examples that got NO bids because they were higher than FMV, and 50% (or less) than OPG!

 

This one sold for $7.99 + $5 s/h with water stains listed as a VG+. So, over 50% of OPG total (assuming they haven't raised the price since my old OPG):

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Amazing-Spiderman-67_W0QQitemZ160354719022QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2555e2d52e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

 

These did ok:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-60s-Spiderman-s-66-67-Comic-Book-Lot-NIce_W0QQitemZ180395375947QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a0066fd4b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

 

The Batman 186 is a krappy overpriced book in OPG.

 

Ah! My point!

 

With that said, this seller got $22.50 + $7 s/h for a described 6.5 copy:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Batman-186-NOV-1966-Joker-c-New-Look-Batman_W0QQitemZ200375244483QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea74b96c3&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

 

Again...you don't know that he got $7 for the ONE book.

 

One problem with ebay, as all know, is that for 95% of the sellers, many buyers assume an overgrade. So these fines are probably assumed to be VG/Fines or less (and probably correctly so). The buyers think they're bidding a higher % of OPG than you attribute. When they get the book they'll know if there right. What % of books that you buy on ebay are accurately graded? Ask here and I suspect most people will say less than 50%. Sure, you have the same problem in the store setting, but at least you can examine the book. Doug Sulipa had a good piece on this in one of his "I sell everything in the store for 100-300% of OPG" sales reports. Sure, I take it all with a grain of salt, but heck, people here are willing to pay a lot more for books from people they trust.

 

 

Both you and FT made this claim, but I don't buy it for a second, and I SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY will never believe it's true for "95% of sellers."

 

Maybe it's true for people like US, to whom condition REALLY matters...but to most people, it doesn't...and this is demonstrated by the people who leave Robojo positive feedback, KNOWING they were scammed!

 

I've heard a lot of people say "oh, everyone discounts a full grade."

 

I'd lay money that that's not true for more than 20% of the people bidding.

 

As far as "people you trust"...of course, I already mentioned that...but this community isn't even 1/10th of 1% of the people who buy on ebay.

[RockMyAmadeus]

When determining the value of your personal collection or purchasing new books, which Guide is more accurate with their pricing and why? Overstreet or Comicpriceguide.com? I thought i'd shoot this question out to all the great folks here on the boards. I appreciate your input and opinions.

 

Neither.

 

Overstreet stopped being an accurate guide about 1990, and both Wizard and CPG clearly took the bulk of their "prices" from the OPG.

 

What has resulted is a lot of wishful thinking on the part of people who like to have something to justify the overblown prices they charge.

 

Obviously, OPG covers nothing above 9.2, is woefully overpriced for about 85% of everything it lists, and woefully underpriced on the rest.

 

Try and get $58 for a VF Rip Hunter #15, just try.

 

Or $60 for a NM- New Gods #2.

 

Or $125 for a NM- Spidey #300.

 

Or...even better...try and find a VF copy of GI Combat #87 for $553. If you do, I'll pay you double for it.

 

Or, a "NM" copy of Rawhide Kid #17, for $585. I'll pay you $1500 for one.

 

 

Will you now?

 

You got one that will grade 9.4 CGC, CR/OW min?

 

Then yes, I will.

 

(thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, please don't make me bust out the CGC examples of books that sell for less than OPG....

 

I think there are at least as many examples of slabbed books selling for over OPG.

 

 

They're SUPPOSED to!

 

 

OPG is supposed to be for RAW books, not slabbed!

 

Slabbed books are SUPPOSED to sell for more than OPG, across the board. What does that say for the validity of the OPG when slabbed books sell for LESS than OPG in the given grade?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I don't think anyone here is claiming 100% OPG on raw books. We're arguing over which side of 50% is more realistic. Under 50% for a quick sale. Over 50% with some patience and not doing stuff like 99 cent starting prices on $30 (in OPG) items. I know some sellers swear by those 99 cent auctions, but I am not convinced.

 

 

 

 

No...please don't do the "we're" thing...let everyone speak for themselves, ok?

 

No one here is claiming 100% OPG on raw books.

 

My point is this. You are even conceding 50%. Ok, so which side of 50%, ok, finer details.

 

But you're conceding that the OPG is 50% off!!

 

If you miss 50% on a test, no matter which side of 50% you fall on, what grade do you get?

 

But everyone is ok with OPG being ABOUT 50% wrong on nearly everything, and sometimes 75-85%??

 

 

I mean, come on, guys....that's my whole point! OPG fails, and it fails EPICALLY!

[RockMyAmadeus]

Phew. good discussion, regardless of the outcome. I'm glad we were able to maintain some decorum and civility..mostly.

[Comicopolis]

Phew. good discussion, regardless of the outcome. I'm glad we were able to maintain some decorum and civility..mostly.

 

What were you arguing about again

[RockMyAmadeus]

Phew. good discussion, regardless of the outcome. I'm glad we were able to maintain some decorum and civility..mostly.

 

What were you arguing about again

 

Who, me? Argue?

 

Pfffft.

 

[the blob]

 

I don't think anyone here is claiming 100% OPG on raw books. We're arguing over which side of 50% is more realistic. Under 50% for a quick sale. Over 50% with some patience and not doing stuff like 99 cent starting prices on $30 (in OPG) items. I know some sellers swear by those 99 cent auctions, but I am not convinced.

 

 

No...please don't do the "we're" thing...let everyone speak for themselves, ok?

 

No one here is claiming 100% OPG on raw books.

 

My point is this. You are even conceding 50%. Ok, so which side of 50%, ok, finer details.

 

But you're conceding that the OPG is 50% off!!

 

If you miss 50% on a test, no matter which side of 50% you fall on, what grade do you get?

 

But everyone is ok with OPG being ABOUT 50% wrong on nearly everything, and sometimes 75-85%??

 

 

I mean, come on, guys....that's my whole point! OPG fails, and it fails EPICALLY!

 

I'm not conceding any such thing. 50% off for some books may very well be true, 25% off for some others, 10% off for some others. 25% under for some others. It depends. You came out with some blanket generalization about take 50% off and then another third. Things should be cheaper on ebay, you are taking chances in what you get. You're paying $3-$10 for shipping. My local shop moves the mainstream marvel silver age titles in midgrade pretty well with 20% off guide and fair grading. Clearly collectors shopping there are aware of ebay and have decided that sometimes it is worth only getting a 20% discount vs. shooting for a 50% or more off and paying for shipping and taking chances on accurate grading, being ripped off, etc. Heck, sometimes even I buy one of those "only" 20% off books when I think he's undergraded (it happens sometimes) and it is something I want in particular. It's all factored into the mix, but OPG does say (last time I read the intro) that it is intended to be a retail B&M guide, list price, whatever, not a junior dealer on ebay guide. So, when you are buying from a junior ebay dealer, you should (and most people tend to) pay less than full retail. As for shops, heck, even Neman Marcus has sales off "full retail". Does anybody selling ANYTHING on ebay ever expect to get "full retail"? Seriously, would anyone pay full ask or even a so-called appraised value for a house or car based on internet photos alone???

 

What are you, some sort of lawyer? Unwilling to concede anything or split the difference.

[Boozad]

The one thing that sticks out to me is that on CPGs message boards there is a 'Hey these prices need fixing' thread. I would wager that not a lot of people ask for prices to be lowered.

 

And let's take a Batman RIP variant. CPG has most of the 1:25s at $25 in 9.4. #678 last sold in CGC 9.8 for $21. Fact. The 12 month average is only $31 over six sales. Fact. So is a raw 9.4 worth $25? I wouldn't think so.

 

Hard fact is far more reliable than conjecture.

 

CPG's message boards are full of loons though aren't they

 

Isn't over there where they think Master CPU is the King of Restoration

 

Yep.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I'm not conceding any such thing. 50% off for some books may very well be true, 25% off for some others, 10% off for some others. 25% under for some others.

 

 

You show me examples of books that sell raw...in OPEN AUCTIONS...for 90% of OPG on a CONSISTENT BASIS.

 

Or 75%...on a CONSISTENT BASIS.

 

Or...most hilariously....for 125% of OPG.

 

 

I can...DC War from 1958-1962.

 

Kirby Westerns from 1958-1962.

 

Selected rare Silver and Golden Age books.

 

These are the exceptions that prove the rule.

 

It depends. You came out with some blanket generalization about take 50% off and then another third. Things should be cheaper on ebay, you are taking chances in what you get. You're paying $3-$10 for shipping.

 

$10 to ship a single raw book?

 

I'm not.

 

Taking chances? Not for a long time has that been true.

 

And seriously, enough with your "shipping accounts for the prices paid" bit..no one is arguing against that, but that only factors in significantly for cheap, cheap books bought one at a time. Enough!

 

My local shop moves the mainstream marvel silver age titles in midgrade pretty well with 20% off guide and fair grading. Clearly collectors shopping there are aware of ebay and have decided that sometimes it is worth only getting a 20% discount vs. shooting for a 50% or more off and paying for shipping and taking chances on accurate grading, being ripped off, etc.

 

Yeah, so?

 

Your "local shop" accounts for, what, 1/1000th of the back issue market? All "local shops" combined account for what, 1/10th of the back issue market?

 

Yeah...that's some REAL high percentages there.

 

Heck, sometimes even I buy one of those "only" 20% off books when I think he's undergraded (it happens sometimes) and it is something I want in particular. It's all factored into the mix, but OPG does say (last time I read the intro) that it is intended to be a retail B&M guide, list price, whatever, not a junior dealer on ebay guide.

 

Where would that be? Hmmm...?

 

Ah yes, let's consider the 2008 OPG.

 

On the front cover, in big bold letters, it says "Comic Book Price Guide."

 

That's someone's first clue that it is, perhaps, a price guide for comic books.

 

Let's look at the INTRO, titled "About This Book" on page 69 (no snickers from the audience, please)...and see what the OPG ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT ITSELF.

 

Hmmmm....

 

"...we'd like to know what they're realistically selling for, right?"

 

Uh oh, right off the bat, we're having issues. The use of the word "realistically."

 

"That's what this book is about." (Realistic prices.)

 

"Overstreet pricing (is) the accepted foundation of the comic book marketplace around the world." Hmmm....no mention about RETAIL prices only....odd...

 

Yadda yadda yadda, ads for other Gemstone publications...ah yes, here we go:

 

"it is important to understand that the values listed in this book are approximations or guidelines, (watch me now, this is gonna KILL ya) representing an average range of what one might expect to pay for the corresponding items."

 

Not a single word about "retail"...huh...and notice...it's an AVERAGE RANGE...that means you should expect to find prices HIGHER and LOWER than those listed which should AVERAGE OUT to the prices you find in the OPG. Almost nothing could be further from the truth.

 

But there's more...maybe this is where it'll state that these are "full retail" prices....

 

"With input from a network of experienced advisors including well established collectors, dealers (gosh, there's no conflict of interest THERE) and historians of popular culture, we have undertaken significant effort to assemble this pricing information."

 

(Pardon me, I have something in my nose... ...thank you.)

 

"The resulting listings come through the observation and documentation of prices realized through hobby and trade shows, catalog sales (really? In 2008? Really Bob?), retail sales, and internet live and mail-in auctions. Documented personal sales may also be included."

 

WHOOPSIE!

 

Looks like I find a smoking gun refuting you, Blob. Drat! The OPG completely contradicts your claim that it says these prices are "retail only." Right there, page 74 of the 2008 OPG. It says that retail sales are included, sure...right along with a whole bunch of other data, including internet live and mail-in auctions.

 

And even STILL, they have totally ignored the eBay market for years.

 

They follow that all up with this amusing little note:

 

"We have earned our reputation for our cautious, conservative approach to pricing."

 

Conservative??

 

 

In fact, as the OPG itself states, it is not intended to be a "full retail, B&M" price guide, but a price guide that represents the worldwide marketplace, as it states.

 

You cannot claim to represent the worldwide marketplace, and consistently ignore the prices achieved on the biggest venue for back issue comic books in the world.

 

You simply cannot.

 

So, when you are buying from a junior ebay dealer, you should (and most people tend to) pay less than full retail. As for shops, heck, even Neman Marcus has sales off "full retail".

 

Nonsense. This is just an excuse to explain away the prices one gets on eBay.

 

At the end of the day, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHY THE PRICES ARE LOWER. The simple fact is, they are, across the board, for 85% of the books sold on eBay, and in most cases, 50% OR MORE lower. All the excuses in the world don't matter as to WHY is.

 

All that matters is this: what was the grade given, and what was the final bid price.

 

This is a fact the OPG has ignored for over a decade now.

 

Does anybody selling ANYTHING on ebay ever expect to get "full retail"? Seriously, would anyone pay full ask or even a so-called appraised value for a house or car based on internet photos alone???

 

 

Come on. Are you REALLY going to compare the back issue COLLECTIBLES market with housing, vehicle, and Department store pricing? And you still expect to be taken seriously? Come on.

 

The OPG is supposed to be a pride GUIDE. Price GUIDES are supposed to be based on THE MARKET AS IT EXISTS, not WISHFUL THINKING.

 

The OPG...for nearly two decades...did JUST THAT, for the most part.

 

Then came the 90's, and it all went to hell.

 

If the price GUIDE doesn't reflect the market as it exists, it ceases to function as a legitimate price guide.

 

If OPG was so accurate, please explain to me why so many people are willing to pay $120 a year for GPA?

 

The answer is simple: GPA reflects what is, not what someone WANTS it to be.

 

What are you, some sort of lawyer? Unwilling to concede anything or split the difference.

 

 

Whatev, man. Despite thousands and thousands and thousands of ended auctions that show otherwise, if you want to believe that the OPG is accurate, you go right ahead. I've spent $100,000+ in the last 9 years through Paypal alone on comic books, bought thousands and thousands of books, in thousands of different eBay auctions, and 98% of the time, paid less than 40% of OPG with shipping.

 

And, I've sold thousands of books as well...some of them, I had to give away for as little as 10-15% of Guide, because I believe(d) in the open auction system, and that's the risk you take. I can count on my hands the number of times I got "better than OPG prices" in well over 2,000 sales, and I'm a good seller with great feedback, excellent descriptions, and excellent pictures.

 

But if you want to believe OPG is accurate, you go right on ahead.

 

I'll be looking for you when I have books to sell.

 

(thumbs u