IS IT TIME FOR AN ORIGINAL ART PRICE GUIDE

[wurstisart]

WHO OWNS THE COVER TO FF 1 !!!!!!!!

 

...sorry...just couldn't resist.

..hmm..does it really exist ?

[wurstisart]

Parkinson,

Just want to make sure you are aware of the "market data" that is available through CAF ?

I just assumed you know, but want to make sure you have seen it.

If not....let me know and i will show you.

 

Andy

[JLA22fan-migration]

WHO OWNS THE COVER TO FF 1 !!!!!!!!

 

...sorry...just couldn't resist.

..hmm..does it really exist ? _________________________

My website :

http://www.wurstisart.com

-------------------------------------------------

 

A certain, no longer yung :-), LA collector with the middle initial O, methinks ?

[jbud73]

Well I will play devils advocate on both sides. The uniqueness factor is trumped up a little too much in OA in my opinion. I mean what if a 10.0 copy of FF #1 occurred, by definition there is always the potential for another 10.0, but the odds are so slim as to make it very unique.

 

I do not think the uniqueness is as much of an issue, or is an insurmountable one. I'll take something I collect for example Perez NTT art. You could conceivable categorize Perez's original run on NTT pretty extensively.

 

Panel pages with Tanghal inks

Panel Pages with Perez inks

Title Spashes

Covers

1/2 Splahses Action

1/2 splashes Non-Action

Base + X % for Judas Contract or key internal examples and key covers #1 etc.

 

And while not as exacting as comic books, you could establish a base market for a body of work for most artists on a given title.

 

On the other hand here are the problems, or obstacles I view as being difficult - I love poking holes in my own theories .

 

1. Scope, there is one entry per comic in the OSPG, you might need 5-10 entries per comic in an art guide to systematically break down a book, that is a lot of data.

 

2. The trade aspect of OA, so many sales are cash trade, or involve some or all trade, that establishing a cash valuation would be much more difficult.

 

3. Pieces that have never sold. While I do feel that the unique card is overplayed, there are many instances of new key pieces to market that would make valuation difficult. Top census in comics happens with a lot more frequency than OA and on top of that when it does occur, there are always other sales in lesser grades to base valuation on. So while a FF#1 in 10.0 may be as unique as any piece of OA, there are 100s of lesser graded examples and therefore a market basis to establish a gradient measure upon.

 

4. Relevancy. There are already market resources like Heritage and CAF, so how much better would a guide be? Are the obstacles that need to be overcome - especially the Scope problem justified by the end product. The fact that we all know the Donnelly Brother's stuff is overpriced seems to indicate that there is pricing consensus in the market, it might not be as codified as the OSPG, but it's still there in lesser form.

 

I think the relevance of the guide is in attracting and establishing new collectors, or the people that would most benefit are newbies as they'd have a codified resource to refer to and not get ripped off as badly. The Catch 22 is that since this will likely never occur, with the buy in and consensus that would be necessary from the upper echelon, the growth of the hobby will be stunted to a certain extent in direct relation to that smaller axis of control. Less standardization = less growth potential in new entrants = less overall growth = less demand for and as Gene mentioned fiscal feasibility/incentive for someone to produce a price guide. And round and round we go.

 

[jbud73]

Oh, forgot to mention something that I do think would occur if a OA price guide were to ever be compiled with at least some level of accuracy, consistency and objective diligence.

 

I believe that the most striking thing would be the overpricing of Modern Art, if the guide was objective I think a lot of people would be scratching their heads at the pricing of Modern saying, "man I can get a BA splash or SA Panel from artist X for that."

 

[artcollector9]

Rather than a guide that would have all the obvious problems noted above, I'd rather see an annual 'Yearbook', say 200+ pages of notable (notable to who?) sales--the year in review.

 

Several years of these could provide a nice basis to determine value by comparison.

 

This isn't unlike us old guys collecting the printed catalogues like Russ Cochran's Graphic Gallery in the old days.

 

But, we kind of have that already online, with CAF, Heritage prices realized, etc.

 

I would like a printed version however.

 

 

[Mighty Hal]

Rather than a guide that would have all the obvious problems noted above, I'd rather see an annual 'Yearbook', say 200+ pages of notable (notable to who?) sales--the year in review.

 

Several years of these could provide a nice basis to determine value by comparison.

 

This isn't unlike us old guys collecting the printed catalogues like Russ Cochran's Graphic Gallery in the old days.

 

But, we kind of have that already online, with CAF, Heritage prices realized, etc.

I would like a printed version however.

 

 

I'm with you, artcollector. I'd buy that Yearbook.

 

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't like a price guide, too. It could happen, I think, if it was done as an online project. Someone more dedicated than most could pull sales, mount images, and list the prices and images by comic book or artist. If the same page sold again, our dedicated researcher could update the info (and, possibly, show the previous sale price).

 

For instance (all info from CAF): Walking Dead #25 Cover (with rough): $350.00 (06/06)

Walking Dead #27 Cover: $255.00 (08/06)

Walking Dead #32 Cover: $280.00 (12/07)

 

The dollar figures may seem outdated but those are the last dollar numbers provided on eBay (Heritage didn't list any Walking Dead covers on my search of their archives). On this basis, the online site would provide a general ballpark for the cash paid for Walking Dead covers. By providing images, our researcher would give us another idea of what image/what artist was selling and for what price.

 

Our theoretical researcher could also show Asking Prices (Walking Dead #55 Cover -- ASKING: $500 (10/01/09) Splash Page Art) or Asked And Unsold (Walking Dead #51 Cover EBAY AND UNSOLD: $1550 (04/09) if that magical person just had too much time on their hands.

 

Sure, there's only one original of each cover but -- as bocaraton said -- there are a lot of similarities, too. Mock the idea, if you will, but I think we'd all wander past the OA Price Guide site every now and then. Maybe not happily (I think prices would drop) but with interest.

 

 

[buyatari]

The price guide for comics (should be easy, right?) doesn't work anymore so how could a price guide for art work?

 

They still issue a comic guide every year and don't forget the monthly guides.

 

I say bring on the comic art price guide and then bring on the debates as to what is right and what is wrong with it here on the forums.

 

A guide is a just a guide.

 

I have the 2 old ones Comicfool was talking about and as outdatted as they are they make great reading material. I'd love to see a new one.

[Bronty]

yeah I hear you although my point was that while they still print the comic guide it is more and more inaccurate every year. To the point now where its more misinformation than good information, when it comes to pricing.

 

The artist/writer info is still fantastic but that doesn't change much year to year so..

[Erato]

I do not think the uniqueness is as much of an issue, or is an insurmountable one. I'll take something I collect for example Perez NTT art. You could conceivable categorize Perez's original run on NTT pretty extensively.

 

Panel pages with Tanghal inks

Panel Pages with Perez inks

Title Spashes

Covers

1/2 Splahses Action

1/2 splashes Non-Action

Base + X % for Judas Contract or key internal examples and key covers #1 etc.

 

And while not as exacting as comic books, you could establish a base market for a body of work for most artists on a given title.

 

I would wager most collectors in this hobby do this very breakdown on their particular focus. I know I keep pretty close tabs on where Patrick Olliffe art is/was/went. And of course there are quite a few pages out there in certain hands that seems over-priced. And it still sits...

 

I feel OA is a more specialized/advanced collecting focus than say, comic books. As well as being a bit harder to track in a price guide. Kinda like how I used to collect Baseball cards, then progressed to autographs. There isn't a price guide for Autographs. You really have to run a little research yourself.

 

The people I've talked to in the OA Community tend to view the research as part of the hobby. Most even enjoy that aspect of it.

 

With Heritage/eBay Archives and CAF market data, as well as a rather friendly community of fellow collectors, Most folk will be able to make quality judgments on the value of a particular page.

 

Then again, if you get just two people that both really want any particular page.... It's not like they can just wait till the next one shows up. Once again, the one-of-a-kind aspect of the hobby tend to scew results.

 

Then again... Again, I'm just a small fish- What do I know!

 

Brian

 

[clemso]

A OA guide is pointless as it is the content and significance of the art that matters. For instance, how would you price the covers to Fantastic Four 71,72 & 73? Their qualities are very different but I am 100% sure that no one would agree that FF 71 cover is worth the same as FF 72 and 73.

If you apply this to interior page content as well, you would probably need one book just to guide Kirby's Fantastic Four run and by then the market price will already have changed.

[Child,pleeze-migration]

I think an annual of notable sales is very good idea. It would also give a very good indication of the market trends.

 

A price guide would just not work. One comic can have 22+ different pages that range from $100 to $3000. It's hard enough for a price guide to monitor the value of every comic ever made, but every page? Unlikely.

[heartened]

I think an annual of notable sales is very good idea. It would also give a very good indication of the market trends.

 

A price guide would just not work. One comic can have 22+ different pages that range from $100 to $3000. It's hard enough for a price guide to monitor the value of every comic ever made, but every page? Unlikely.

 

I have always thought that Overstreet should add an OA market report to their market report sections. I would be happy to contribute, as would (I'm sure) many others. At least in this manner folks can get a sense of where things are heading, but noting actual sales and trends.

 

Hari

 

[theloveforart]

A annual of all cash sales (NO trade and cash, or full trade) for all outlets of comic art sales (ebay, heritage, comiclink etc) is an amazing idea, i know we can do the research ourselves, but there are many collectors that don't really know about these places or don't have the time to do the research, so a printed book every year would really help out the whole industry understand price ranges for certain artists.

 

I also have to agree that the "every page is so unique so we can sell it for anything we want because we are the owner" is total $#%^&. Go thru ebay, there is so much garbage overpriced that has not sold for years and it never will because they agree with that mentallity of every piece is so special especially the Rob Liefield stuff.

 

Raul Novo

[igotnogame]

Some issues I would see with an annual.

 

One problem with an annual would be the portential inability to list things that move privately. I'm sure some buyers / sellers wouldn't mind disclosing what the piece went for, but a lot of times I think that's not the case.

 

Also, a lot of the "premium" art you see on dealers' websites are without the prices after a piece sells as well. Unless you're lucky enough to see the price before it sells, you wouldn't be able to record it. Plus, what if the dealer is contacted and the piece sells for less than what it's listed for - there would be no record of that unless the dealer or buyer provided that information.

 

It would be slick to see the CAF market data be able to capture the listed prices of art that show up on dealer's websites or listed in the Comicart Shop / Dealer Shop updates. It would, at the minimum, add to the data that is currently available. Why just limit it to auction results? I'm sure that data could be captured when a update is posted? :shrug:

 

What would determine what pieces went into the annual? I'm sure a lot of collectors have a broad appreciation of different artists, but at the same time there are those collectors that have a very narrow focus. Different strokes and all that.

 

I *do* think it would be great to see a annual of some sorts come about, but not sure how feasible it would be to produce.

 

Laters.

-Will

 

[CollectingFool]

There's already enough price manipulation going on. With an Annual report, I bet a lot of the reported dollar amounts would be inflated based on what people had in their inventory.

 

No matter which way you slice it, the only way to really, REALLY know what something is worth is to be hip deep in this hobby, talk to people, have a good memory and be plugged in to those that know. People who are new (or newer) to the hobby might think this is unfair but that's just the way it is.

 

There are no short cuts and if you want to jump in and start buying I'd equate it to the same as jumping into the stock market without doing your own research. Everyone that gives you info probably has an angle or at least a biased point of view. If you plan to spend real money and are concerned about return on investment, you'd better do the leg work.

 

[theloveforart]

Some issues I would see with an annual.

 

One problem with an annual would be the portential inability things that move privately. I'm sure some buyers / sellers wouldn't mind disclosing what the piece went for, but a lot of times I think that's not the case.

 

*****1...Back to my case only cash deals thru auction houses or internet sales, to much secrecy and hidden agendas thru dealer websites, i have learnt that dealers are the ones that manipulate the market by just exchanging art thru each other and then claiming it sold for those prices so nothing but auction house and internet sales because that is pure cash and in the open.********

 

Also, a lot of the "premium" art you see on dealers' websites are without the prices after a piece sells as well. Unless you're lucky enough to see the price before it sells, you wouldn't be able to record it. Plus, what if the dealer is contacted and the piece sells for less than what it's listed for - there would be no record of that unless the dealer or buyer provided that information.

 

*****Read post 1....no shifty transactions only the ones in the open market ebay, heritage comiclink etc.******

 

It would be slick to see the CAF market data be able to capture the listed prices of art that show up on dealer's websites or listed in the Comicart Shop / Dealer Shop updates. It would, at the minimum, add to the data that is currently available. Why just limit it to auction results? I'm sure that data could be captured when a updated is posted?

 

*****Read post 1....no shifty transactions only the ones in the open market ebay, heritage comiclink etc.******

 

What would determine what pieces went into the annual? I'm sure a lot of collectors have a broad appreciation of different artists, but at the same time there are those collectors that have a very narrow focus. Different strokes and all that.

 

*****Read post 1....no shifty transactions only the ones in the open market ebay, heritage comiclink etc.******

 

I *do* think it would be great to see a annual of some sorts come about, but not sure how feasible it would be to produce.

 

Again i totally feel it can work just no shifty dealer sales

[wurstisart]

If you are referring to what i posted earlier (every page is unique and people have the power to ask whatever price they want for them)...i just want to make sure that my fellow art collecters here understand that i don't agree to this, or that i would do it that way. But fact is...that's what it is.

 

If you are smart (as a seller) and you want to sell a certain piece, price it according to what the market is willing to pay. Or maybe even a little lower.

Yes experience and a guide would help here. But on the other side...ALL DEALERS know best what the value is for the pieces they put up.

 

So again, you think a price guide will change anybody from the way they are pricing stuff ? I don't think so.

 

Getting back to certain pieces that dealers buy from various auctions and 3 months later we see them double the price the auction was, what can you do about it ? Nothing.

 

Again, I don't agree to this, but the only thing you could have done is bidding on the piece in the first place.

 

It all comes down to what you are willing to pay for a piece or not.

 

I know I don't do it on what I am selling and that's all I care about.

I will not change mankind and the way people are . People are who they are.

 

Maybe another thing to look at, if prices never would increase, the silver age covers would still sell for $ 125 ?!

[buyatari]

You guys are WAY overthinking this one.

 

The old guides had a price range not a fixed price and they also included a paragraph or so on the artist.

 

A guide might say generally speaking panel pages without any action are in this range. Fight scenes have sold in this range and splash pages in this range. Then go on to note important events (key issues which sell for a premium) in the comic and notable sales of key pages or covers. I would like to see a guide with more text than numbers.

 

Would it be an accurate indicator of every piece that would come up for sale? no

 

It would just be a guide based on past sales and provide some background info on the artist and past transactions.

 

Another thing no one has brought up is that a list of known stolen could be added.

[buyatari]

 

No matter which way you slice it, the only way to really, REALLY know what something is worth is to be hip deep in this hobby, talk to people, have a good memory and be plugged in to those that know. People who are new (or newer) to the hobby might think this is unfair but that's just the way it is.

 

 

You hit the nail on the head. That IS the way it is and the old timers who could provide insight to such a project LIKE it that way.