And people wonder why folks get a little bit peeved...

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

OK. I'll make this simple for you.

 

Good luck, Dan. I don't think it can be done. But good luck (thumbs u

 

You have to admire his tenaciousness, he apparently likes this sort of intellectual gang-rape by so many Boardies. Maybe he'll come back for more when he heals up and can walk straight again....

 

 

[Dale Roberts]

some of the statements are facts, some are opinions based on select data.

 

It's a fact that all of Dale Roberts' posts in the past few pressing threads have been

 

Dale has even begun using graemlins. Will an avatar & date with greggy be next??

SD 2010 - Be there!!!

 

all I have to do is find some sweet 100 pagers and I'm home

[greggy]

some of the statements are facts, some are opinions based on select data.

 

It's a fact that all of Dale Roberts' posts in the past few pressing threads have been

 

Dale has even begun using graemlins. Will an avatar & date with greggy be next??

SD 2010 - Be there!!!

 

all I have to do is find some sweet 100 pagers and I'm home

[THE_BEYONDER]

Intellectual gang rape...

 

Sounds kinky

[seanfingh]

Michaelangelo's personal notebook of inventions.

 

This sounds frickin' sweet!

[MrBedrock]

OK. I'll make this simple for you.

 

Good luck, Dan. I don't think it can be done. But good luck (thumbs u

 

You have to admire his tenaciousness, he apparently likes this sort of intellectual gang-rape by so many Boardies. Maybe he'll come back for more when he heals up and can walk straight again....

 

I assume you are talking about Domo.

He just feels strongly about his position.

I don't think any one can express their point of view in simple enough terms to sway Domo from his position.

[Domo Arigato]

I am not the Library of Congress, but I did have quite a bit of chemistry in college, and I know that when you introduce different levels of heat, different levels and rates of reaction occur. When you remove that heat, those rates of reaction slow down and revert to normal in most cases. I would venture a guess that this is such a case. Maybe there is a chemist out there somewhere.....

 

You are arguing that any heat and moisture is bad. Well, there are levels of heat present at all times at most points on earth.. I would also imagine there is heat in the encapsulation process. Is that also bad for comics?

 

The fact is this, paper is not inert. It is constantly breaking down. However, with proper climate storage and archival material storage, you can slow that deterioration way down. The short time that books are pressed(if done properly) is not going to destroy your books. If you don't want to believe it, that is up to you.

You guys are trying to argue semantics and it's not working. I guess you can keep trying if you want to though. A professional conservator with the LOC was asked a specific question with regards to using heat and/or moisture to press a comic book. It wouldn't be out of line to say that these guys probably know more than anyone else on the planet about paper consveration and would have a clue as to what process we are talking about. They recommend not doing it. Is it going to immediately destroy the books. No. I never said that and neither did the LOC. But it is doing damage to them...which is a lot different that some in here would have previously led us to beleive.

[Mr. Zipper]

You have to admire his tenaciousness, he apparently likes this sort of intellectual gang-rape by so many Boardies. Maybe he'll come back for more when he heals up and can walk straight again....

 

 

Gang rape, maybe.

 

Intellectual? Are you kidding?

 

So, completely unproven and unsubstantiated opinions are supposed to be believed, and the LOC is supposed to be disregarded because they did not provide enough footnotes?

 

That is rich!

 

[Domo Arigato]

OK. I'll make this simple for you.

Good luck, Dan. I don't think it can be done. But good luck (thumbs u

 

You have to admire his tenaciousness, he apparently likes this sort of intellectual gang-rape by so many Boardies. Maybe he'll come back for more when he heals up and can walk straight again....

Haven't felt anything along the lines of an intellectual gang-rape so far. Perhaps that intellectual viagra your doctor put you on is some kind of placebo and your old noodle is as limp as ever.

[Davenport]

Keep in mind encapsulated comics is a very, very tiny niche in overall fandom. There's probably more to enjoy now than ever before. Comics and related stuff are everywhere. (thumbs u

 

Monetarily speaking and as far as the high end is concerned, encapsulated books are very very far from a tiny niche. They are approaching the norm.

Sure, if you throw in the "high end" caveat it may very well be the norm. But isn't the high end a tiny niche itself, where encapsulation becomes a niche within a niche?

 

At this year's mid to large conventions what percentage of all comic books offered for sale were slabbed? (I don't know. Can anyone offer a rough estimate?)

And what about those massive online dealers like Lone Star, Mile High, Doug Sulipa, New Kadia, etc. What percentage of their offerings are slabbed? Not to mention eBay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

Keep in mind encapsulated comics is a very, very tiny niche in overall fandom. There's probably more to enjoy now than ever before. Comics and related stuff are everywhere. (thumbs u

 

Monetarily speaking and as far as the high end is concerned, encapsulated books are very very far from a tiny niche. They are approaching the norm.

 

I would estimate that a LOT LESS than 1% of the total comics published/printed/distributed are encapsulated, and we would be working with complicated math if we accounted for works considered part of the comic book category which cannot be encapsulated.

 

By this definition, we are talking about a tiny speck in the niche universe.

[awe4one]

OK, lets get REAL about this. Dont make it dealers. There are more people who press on THIS board than there are dealers on the convention circuit. People press books. Boardies, comic collectors, flippers, and more.

 

 

OK...anyone who sells a knowingly pressed comic. Better?

 

Jim

[delekkerste]

But shouldn't a piece of art that is completely untouched and original be worth more than a similar piece (with similar composition and similar content...say two nearly identical dailies from the same artist) that is cleaned and has stats replaced?

 

Remember, if you say yes or no then it blows your whole reason for leaving the slabbed comic market.

 

I don't know if the second statement is a joke or has been mistyped. In any case, it has no bearing whatsoever on anything I said above and is a total non-sequitur. It's quite simple: restoration in comics <> restoration in OA. I don't think there is any need to get further into it because I think it's pretty self-evident to everyone and only distracts from the real issue.

 

I met up with our mutual friend Marc today and he was telling me how he is in the market for a certain high grade Silver Age DC key. But, he told me that he wants to make sure that the copy he buys has not been pressed. He is not a Board member and he is not a rabid anti-presser. But, like most people who are aware of what pressing is and how the "game" is played these days, he recognizes that a comic book that achieved its grade naturally is simply not equivalent to one that achieved its full potential unnaturally (as I'll logically prove below). Even if nothing detectable was "added", it was artificially manipulated.

 

It may not bother some people, given the prevailing standards of the hobby, but it does bother others. And, it's not enough to say "let and let live", because what the pressing camp does affects the anti-pressing camp by (a) turning books they would want to collect into books they would not want to collect and (b) distorting the relative scarcity of books in grade as well as market prices up and down the grading spectrum based on their "potential".

 

For those who approve of pressing - do you think that Book A, which achieved its grade through artificial manipulation (pressing) is every bit the equivalent of Book B, a book that naturally achieved that status? I think it is pretty evident that the answer is "no". If you disagree with that, you're flat-out wrong, because Book A has "reached its maximum potential" whereas Book B might yet be able to be "potentialized". So, even if you don't care about how a book got its looks, Book B still has what financiers would call "option value" while Book A does not. We all know this, this is why people pay more for books that can be potentialized as opposed to those that already have been.

 

Recognizing that pressed and unpressed books of the same grade are not equivalent and that the actions of the pressers negatively affect the enjoyment of the anti-pressers, why is it so hard to understand why pressing, quite justifiably, really, really, really upsets a lot of people?

[slym2none]

delek gets my vote for CGC boardie of the year.

 

 

 

-slym

[Mr. Zipper]

delek gets my vote for CGC boardie of the year.

 

-slym

 

Certainly one of the more compelling posters... Gene always delivers thoughtful analysis.

 

(thumbs u

[buttock]

 

Link

 

 

OK, let's address this.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp."

 

It's a recommendation. Not fact. Studies have shown that heat accelerates aging, but none in a fashion anywhere similar to that used in pressing. Most often in much higher temperatures and for much longer. You simply can't extrapolate that to pressing.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

Again, no facts given, simply stating what preferences "many conservators" elect to do. There is humidity in the air. You need some humidity in the air to preserve paper. Humidity can be bad or good for paper. This is such a vague statement: "Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin" There's nothing objective or experimental there.

 

You really need to read what is written and stated before drawing such a conclusive view. This entire statement is nothing more than educated opinion at best. I believe you said I had mis-represented this. I'd like for you to show how I did that. If not, you need to retract that.

The LOC statement was in direct response to a very well thought out and specific question that Fantastic_Four presented to them about pressing a comic. And yes...they don't recommend using heat to reduce wrinkles because of the fact that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp. Seems extemely clear to me.

 

And I'll concede the moisture part, since it's not entirely clear if most people are using moisture when doing the pressing. However, it does look like the LOC carefully considers a broad number of factors before deciding to introduce moisture into a paper product to help flatten it and that "many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

And I believe you did mis-represent this...because it was clear from one of your follow-up posts afterwards that you were just commenting on what you had read on the LOC website and hadn't actually read this response from them that I had posted earlier in the thread. If you want to chastise someone for not reading what is written and stated before drawing a conclusive view...then I think that door swings both directions in this case.

 

OK. I'll make this simple for you.

 

Is that statement from the LOC:

a) Fact

b) Opinion

 

The part about heat is clearly presented as a fact.

 

No it's not. Read it again. The words "recommended" and "many" are both qualifiers that exclude it from being presented as fact. It remains opinion.

 

And you should really read up on the studies they're talking about and see how relevant they are to pressing.

 

 

[MCMiles]

But shouldn't a piece of art that is completely untouched and original be worth more than a similar piece (with similar composition and similar content...say two nearly identical dailies from the same artist) that is cleaned and has stats replaced?

 

Remember, if you say yes or no then it blows your whole reason for leaving the slabbed comic market.

 

I don't know if the second statement is a joke or has been mistyped. In any case, it has no bearing whatsoever on anything I said above and is a total non-sequitur. It's quite simple: restoration in comics <> restoration in OA. I don't think there is any need to get further into it because I think it's pretty self-evident to everyone and only distracts from the real issue.

 

I met up with our mutual friend Marc today and he was telling me how he is in the market for a certain high grade Silver Age DC key. But, he told me that he wants to make sure that the copy he buys has not been pressed. He is not a Board member and he is not a rabid anti-presser. But, like most people who are aware of what pressing is and how the "game" is played these days, he recognizes that a comic book that achieved its grade naturally is simply not equivalent to one that achieved its full potential unnaturally (as I'll logically prove below). Even if nothing detectable was "added", it was artificially manipulated.

 

It may not bother some people, given the prevailing standards of the hobby, but it does bother others. And, it's not enough to say "let and let live", because what the pressing camp does affects the anti-pressing camp by (a) turning books they would want to collect into books they would not want to collect and (b) distorting the relative scarcity of books in grade as well as market prices up and down the grading spectrum based on their "potential".

 

For those who approve of pressing - do you think that Book A, which achieved its grade through artificial manipulation (pressing) is every bit the equivalent of Book B, a book that naturally achieved that status? I think it is pretty evident that the answer is "no". If you disagree with that, you're flat-out wrong, because Book A has "reached its maximum potential" whereas Book B might yet be able to be "potentialized". So, even if you don't care about how a book got its looks, Book B still has what financiers would call "option value" while Book A does not. We all know this, this is why people pay more for books that can be potentialized as opposed to those that already have been.

 

Recognizing that pressed and unpressed books of the same grade are not equivalent and that the actions of the pressers negatively affect the enjoyment of the anti-pressers, why is it so hard to understand why pressing, quite justifiably, really, really, really upsets a lot of people?

 

This is a good post, but speaking for myself, It's not hard to understand. I, for one have always "gotten it", and have respected the anti-pressing opinion. Still, I don't feel the same way, so it really isn't my problem. If it was my problem I would protect myself concerning the problem.

 

 

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

OK. I'll make this simple for you.

Good luck, Dan. I don't think it can be done. But good luck (thumbs u

 

You have to admire his tenaciousness, he apparently likes this sort of intellectual gang-rape by so many Boardies. Maybe he'll come back for more when he heals up and can walk straight again....

Haven't felt anything along the lines of an intellectual gang-rape so far. Perhaps that intellectual viagra your doctor put you on is some kind of placebo and your old noodle is as limp as ever.

 

C'mon, I'd thought you'd do better than that...perhaps I gave you too much credit.

[Dale Roberts]

 

Link

 

 

OK, let's address this.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp."

 

It's a recommendation. Not fact. Studies have shown that heat accelerates aging, but none in a fashion anywhere similar to that used in pressing. Most often in much higher temperatures and for much longer. You simply can't extrapolate that to pressing.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

Again, no facts given, simply stating what preferences "many conservators" elect to do. There is humidity in the air. You need some humidity in the air to preserve paper. Humidity can be bad or good for paper. This is such a vague statement: "Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin" There's nothing objective or experimental there.

 

You really need to read what is written and stated before drawing such a conclusive view. This entire statement is nothing more than educated opinion at best. I believe you said I had mis-represented this. I'd like for you to show how I did that. If not, you need to retract that.

The LOC statement was in direct response to a very well thought out and specific question that Fantastic_Four presented to them about pressing a comic. And yes...they don't recommend using heat to reduce wrinkles because of the fact that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp. Seems extemely clear to me.

 

And I'll concede the moisture part, since it's not entirely clear if most people are using moisture when doing the pressing. However, it does look like the LOC carefully considers a broad number of factors before deciding to introduce moisture into a paper product to help flatten it and that "many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

And I believe you did mis-represent this...because it was clear from one of your follow-up posts afterwards that you were just commenting on what you had read on the LOC website and hadn't actually read this response from them that I had posted earlier in the thread. If you want to chastise someone for not reading what is written and stated before drawing a conclusive view...then I think that door swings both directions in this case.

 

OK. I'll make this simple for you.

 

Is that statement from the LOC:

a) Fact

b) Opinion

The part about heat is clearly presented as a fact.

 

 

Sure, but you do realize there are different levels of heat right? Lots of heat is worse than a little heat. right? So where is the line? Is it 90 degrees, 120, 200 degrees? Where is the line. Paper ignites at 451 degrees, so it must be cooler than that. Unless you add moisture, which boils and evaporates at 212. Lots of variable in this equation.

 

[comicwiz]

Recognizing that pressed and unpressed books of the same grade are not equivalent and that the actions of the pressers negatively affect the enjoyment of the anti-pressers, why is it so hard to understand why pressing, quite justifiably, really, really, really upsets a lot of people?

 

But that's the irony in this debate. What would it matter to an anti-presser if someone buys a pressed comic? Doesn't it seem irrational to you that someone who is against pressing would be upset with a seller who discloses/presses comics, and the buyer of these books? If the the fuel that feeds that anti-pressers rage is that buyers of pressed comics perpetuate the corruption even further, then following the path of logic to its conclusion, why then do anti-pressers continue to buy high-grade encapsulated comics instead of buying books that wouldn't need to be held captive in a holder intended to girdle such improvements?

 

The height of irrationality though has to be this myth that all books can be improved through pressing. It would have been great to hear someone like Matt chime in and give us a percentage of books that he's screened which are actually improvable, but the crux of the problem is that all the pent-up hostility on these boards toward this topic has scared away anyone with knowledge on this subject to the point that they probably wouldn't even be willing to share their insights through an email.