I'm sick of CGC modern books going on ebay for so high.....

[Mr. Zipper]

I'm sure that's just what these type of sellers are doing... they have an arrangement with a local shop to cherry pick the new books before they hit the shelves.

 

Yes, do go on...you know this because you have done this yourself or have friends that have these seedy arrangements?

 

Do you actually think they are getting these off the shelves like the other 99% of us have to do ?

 

NO. I have stated earlier - I run a sub service with my local comic shop because I want to support them and buy my readers from there and I buy an extensive list of comics monthly - and I get a 10% discount like everyone else.

 

I wasn't even aware that you sold on ebay, so no need to take it personally.

 

But there are some sellers that consistantly have 9.8s and 9.9s of moderns.... their auction text (or about me) refers to their ability to pick the best comics, yada, yada, yada...

 

My somewhat snide remarks referred to them. I don't submit moderns to CGC and don't know anyone that does. My presumption about sweetheart cherry picking deals just seems logical to me. There is no way these people could make money if they were buying and submitting mass quantities to get back a few 9.8+... and there is no way to consistantly pick 9.8+ off the LCS shelf. So, it seems logical to me, these people have a deal with someone where they get to look though virgin stacks.

 

Which is fine... it just rubs me the wrong way when they claim that they are some sort of eagle eyed grading experts

 

[Darthdiesel]

I wasn't even aware that you sold on ebay,

 

http://stores.ebay.com/darthdieselcomiccollectibles

 

so no need to take it personally.

 

But there are some sellers that consistantly have 9.8s and 9.9s of moderns

 

It's all about the prescreen and yes they also take time to look thru their stashes before submitting

 

.... their auction text (or about me) refers to their ability to pick the best comics, yada, yada, yada...

 

There may be some truth to that. If you know how to pick out flaws well on moderns, and are not as lenient as others, like guys who claim that all off the shelf comics are "NM", then you are a stricter grader than most.

 

My presumption about sweetheart cherry picking deals just seems logical to me.

 

Here is where this scenario falls apart for me. I'm a store owner. I may be your friend/faithful customer and I let you come in and cherry pick and sell these to you at your regular sub discount - let's say 10% off cover...I the store owner make some miniscule profit off that sale. Next thing i know you are selling them on ebay 1 month down the road and they are top census copies getting $50 avg for 9.8, $100 avg for 9.9 and ridiculous prices at the CGC 10.0 level...and I the seller don't get a cut of that? I would say screw this - cut me in or no more deals for you or better yet, I saw you pick them out, I know what you look for, I decide to come in early and spend some time opening the cases myself, along with my handy magnifying glass and picking the best for myself to submit and cut you out completely.

 

The store owner is a businessman - first and foremost. Why would he not tap that revenue himself and allow you that access and $$$ on a continuing basis? for your 90% of cover price on the issues you buy? Not worth it IMO

 

There is no way these people could make money if they were buying and submitting mass quantities to get back a few 9.8+... and there is no way to consistantly pick 9.8+ off the LCS shelf.

 

Prescreen takes care of point one. No need to mass submit and get back lower grades when you can just pay a niominal fee for those that don't make the cut. And there are more sources avaialble for high grade new books other than your LCS...check out those sellers that offer 9.6 subscription services - they usually give breaks on their shipping and prices better than your LCS.

 

So, it seems logical to me, these people have a deal with someone where they get to look though virgin stacks.

 

Just get lucky fnding a source who doesn't get their Dimond shipment put thru hell every week to get to them.

 

Which is fine... it just rubs me the wrong way when they claim that they are some sort of eagle eyed grading experts

 

 

True test if they are is if they can call their mid grades and low grades very close to the industry standard.

[RS]

Look at this ebay sale 50 superman 204 jim lee's cgc 9.8 for 39.95 each

Ebay

 

[Darthdiesel]

prescreen.

[RS]

What is the number of 9.8 out of Example 1 out of 20 or 1 out of 10?

[lighthouse]

Yep...

 

Although it's also a violation of PayPal, Visa and Mastercard rules...

 

You are not permitted to accept money for items that you will not have in hand within the next 30 days...

 

I break the rule for the convenience of my international customers when I do pre-orders here on the forum. But technically you cannot charge a credit card beyond that 30-day window...

[greggy]

Yep...

 

Although it's also a violation of PayPal, Visa and Mastercard rules...

 

You are not permitted to accept money for items that you will not have in hand within the next 30 days...

 

I break the rule for the convenience of my international customers when I do pre-orders here on the forum. But technically you cannot charge a credit card beyond that 30-day window...

[BachelorOfComix]

[lighthouse]

What is the number of 9.8 out of Example 1 out of 20 or 1 out of 10?

 

It's not that simple... Every book is different.

[*]Prestige format books (like Killing Joke, Avengers/JLA, and the current Gemstone Disneys) are probably 70% 9.8's fresh out of the case.

[*]Cardstock covers (like the early Ultimate Spideys, Origin, and 1602) are probably 50% 9.8's out of the case.

[*]Slick paper covers (like the current Ultimate Spideys) are probably around 15% or less, with some samples as high as 50% but many below 10%. Of the last 500 Ultimate Spideys I have received I would say around 80 were 9.8s but they were not evenly spread. My #49s were nearly all 9.8s and my #52s there weren't any...

[*]Regular paper covers (like Avengers, Thor, JLA) are probably around 25-30% 9.8's out of the case.

 

And just the act of unpacking them, sorting them, and counting them probably cuts that number in half if not done with extreme care. Because many of the 9.8s in the case are borderline and won't quite make the cut after handling...

 

I take very good care of my books when getting them to the rack, but even still I doubt more than 10% of the books on the rack when the doors open are 9.8. And that's true whether I pre-screened the title or not...

 

But no matter what kind of covers, sometimes whole shipments will be damaged. I don't believe I had a single 9.8 of any title in the shipment I got the week before Christmas. There was no visible damage to the cartons, but they all had light impact damage that dropped them into the 9.4-9.6 range.

[Darthdiesel]

What is the number of 9.8 out of Example 1 out of 20 or 1 out of 10?

 

I see lighthouse answered just as I would have...but best way to find out is experience.

 

My advice: for you

 

Take 100 CGG modern 9.8 - 10.0s; take them out of the slabs/mylites. Then submit them into CGC and for a prescreen of 9.8 and above and see ow many come back in a slab with a 9.8 label. The most you would be out is $1500 tops if all get slabbed. If CGG really does grade stricter/undergrade, then you would have no worries as we all know that CGC 9.8 and higher will rake in multiples of grading cost and guide? I don't think I've seen a 9.9 sell for less than grading cost? Anyone?

 

[RS]

Thanks lighthouse Thats alot of book to prescreen to get 50 9.8

[lighthouse]

Thanks lighthouse Thats alot of book to prescreen to get 50 9.8

 

But of course, they don't need to get 50 at 9.8.... they just need to get enough to fill their orders... There aren't 50 people out there who are interested in a deal like this...

[garthgantu]

The other day I was checking out ebay and my fiance was looking over my shoulder. A CGC 9.8 JLA was on the screen.... the price was $49 or something like that, and she asked "Isn't that the same comic sitting on the floor next to the Lazy Boy... is it worth THAT much?!?"

 

I told her, "Yes it's the same book, but mine probably has a crease that you can only see with a microscope, so it's not worth the paper it's printed on."

 

She rolled her eyes and walked away. She has a point.

 

And we wonder why kids today don't collect back issues... it's not *just* the money, which is a significant hurdle, no doubt. But all you gotta do is get burned a couple of times on these "valuable" moderns, and you're cured of any interest in collecting. When most of us started collecting back issues, you could safely buy a 10- or 20-year old comic without having to fixate on its condition. Now, you have to be a master grader to even figure out if the price on the bag/mylar/slab is in any way reasonable.

[Calamerica]

 

And we wonder why kids today don't collect back issues... it's not *just* the money, which is a significant hurdle, no doubt. But all you gotta do is get burned a couple of times on these "valuable" moderns, and you're cured of any interest in collecting. When most of us started collecting back issues, you could safely buy a 10- or 20-year old comic without having to fixate on its condition.

 

This has been discussed for countless posts/hours on ALL Boards - the thing that REALLY cures a lot of potential collectors is the misgrading, the rip-offs, and otherwise unpleasant people who just won't let you have fun in your way of Comic Book Collecting. Experience speaking here. This business of CGC Modern collecting was not around when most of us were mailing our money orders to Rogofsky and Robert Bell in NY State and getting back issues for $10.00 or less. And they ALWAYS arrived - always were close to grade. The few times the rip-offs happened with other Dealers, the networking system word-of-mouth worked just fine. The fly-by-nights moved on. Hopefully into other areas where they were justifiably dealt with.

[garthgantu]

I hear ya. I was buying NM (in today's terms, "VF/NM 9.0 to NM+ 9.6) books from Robert Bell 30 years ago. Daredevil 2 was $6, ASM 25 and 26 for $2 each, etc. etc. More importantly, I didn't need a microscope (or CGC) to ensure that my purchase was a "safe" one.

[Darthdiesel]

I was just a glint in my daddy's horny eye 30 years ago. The deals you fondly reminisce of,( I was buying NM (in today's terms, "VF/NM 9.0 to NM+ 9.6) books from Robert Bell 30 years ago. Daredevil 2 was $6, ASM 25 and 26 for $2 each, etc. etc....) along with other collectors on here, are LONG gone. The only deals like that available are on Modern comics:

 

"In 1999-2004, I was buying books from www.comic-central.com in the NM/MT 9.8 range. ASM 36 was $3, Ultimate SPider-man 1 was $2.25 etc. etc..."

 

Why begrudge the new generation their collecting material of choice? Does Robert Bell still provide the same deals on those Silver Age books? NO. So why expect today's generation of comic collector to grab on to what did it for you in the past and at ridiculously higher prices to start off at? Just because someone spends that amount on Moderns doesn't mean that they would spend it on Silver and Golden Age instead if there were no Modern/current materials?

[valiantman]

I hear ya. I was buying NM (in today's terms, "VF/NM 9.0 to NM+ 9.6) books from Robert Bell 30 years ago. Daredevil 2 was $6, ASM 25 and 26 for $2 each, etc. etc. More importantly, I didn't need a microscope (or CGC) to ensure that my purchase was a "safe" one.

 

I wonder if this quote would have the same "feel" if it was written as:

 

"I hear ya. I was buying NM (in today's terms, "VF/NM 9.0 to NM+ 9.6) books from

Robert Bell 30 years ago. Daredevil 2 was 10 years old and I only paid 50times cover price, ASM 25 and 26 were only 16times cover price. etc. etc. More importantly, I didn't need a microscope (or CGC) to ensure that my purchase was a "safe" one."

 

Really? 50 times cover price for a ten year old book and you didn't need to care about condition. Good times.

[Calamerica]

This sounds a bit harsh but I am sick of people complaining about supply and demand forces. My final take on this matter...

 

FACT: There is a small but economically strong segment of a collectibles branch that has evolved to a different collecting within a hobby. That hobby is Comic Book Collecting. The hobby of Comic Book Collecting can't be that long in history as Comics as we know them to be were not mass produced until the Platinum age, and people hoarding Comics really did not start until the 1960's. The official Guide by B. Overstreet is only in its 34th year.

 

FACT: All the energy to classify comics, assess a "value" on them, all the people knowledgeable about popularities amongst readers, has bottlenecked into what we have remaining today: a medium originally designed for cheap entertainment now has a collectible value and is largely accepted in the collectible world.

 

FACT: Any monetary "value" or its equivalent of any collectible is based on the basic Supply-and-Demand economic model. The 1955 Lincoln Cent Double-die( strike) has a value. But don't they make millions of pennies every year? Have done so for a few centuries? There must be 10 million of these 1955 Lincoln Pennies? Are there 10 million 1955 Double-Die's out there? No there are not 10 million of them. In proportion to mint presses, this penny has a very low number. And that penny has many coin hobbyists having them in their collections.

 

FACT: As in most hobbies, the level of sophistication has dramatically increased worldwide. This makes sense as the Information Age and Internet has made available the details for just about any subject anyone would have an interest.

 

FACT: As in any endeavor, people on all sides of the moral scale tried to jump on the bandwagon to make a profit. Some became Dealers, some stayed small, many came and went. The dishonest eventually leave the hobby, as in any other business. The GRADING of the hobby's product, the Comic Books themselves, became the central point of discontent.

 

FACT: Television, and later, the Theatres, sparked renewed interest in some Popular Comic Book characters. This trend has moved heavily towards Movie Theatres and so far has been a commercial success for both Comics and the Movie Industry.

 

FACT: Entrepeneurial planners saw a need to settle grading disputes. Thus CGC. In the 2nd step of a business cycle, the competition enters the "market". The newcomers are anticipating to establish their place in the new market before saturation( via too many competitors) or unprofitable/deteriorating market conditions( obsolete product line(s))How many companies are on the NYSE from 100 years ago? GE? American Can? Not too many. Business cycles change.

 

OPINION BASED ON FACT: Coins, Sportscards, Stamps, Comic Books and Toys now have Grading Companies to each respective hobby. This is like the DA's Office in every habitable place in our Nation today: if everyone was honest, the DA & company( Police) would be out of business. Most people in the hobbies above are honest people. I recall Coin Dealers getting upset over the small pocket-sized grading books that were published in the late 1960's and they did not like the fact that they could not pawn off VG coins as a much higher grade. And, like coins, the disputes arose in the Comics as a result of GRADING ISSUES. I cannot recall too many disputes because of a "Value" of a certain comic; common sense wins out as if there WAS such a disagreement on a value of a Comic, there would not be a transaction between the parties disputing said valued Comic. The grading field of Comics was long overdue, and will remain. I said this 4 years ago and say it again, CGC will survive and that is a result of the market conditions and their abilities to produce their product. Those who are upset with the encapsulating Comic Books can still participate in the Comics Hobby by immersion of "raw" comics. The Comic hobbyists that are dead-set against CGC and any other entities with their mantra of " Read the comics" - well, they can just do that. Take THEIR comics out and read them whenever they want to. They just cannot accept the fact that some Comics folks WANT the encapsulated Comic, and don't need to read them. Treated like artwork. I like both kinds of comics for myself. When the mood hits me, I read them. But I don't want anyone touching my CGC comics and as long as they are in the CGC case, the comics remain safe. The CGC comics' purpose is well served with the resto check and is nice to own, period.

 

I guess the bottom line here is that there are going to be some people out there that do not like others taking a product with seemingly little value and finding a way to market that product in a way to show a substantial profit. Hashed and re-hashed ad nauseum - and it is always the detractors that blame CGC or a Comic Dealers' fault because of the supply and demand in the changed Comic Book world of today - they claim that such business folks should not be earning a profit via the Comics - ok so someone took a Modern 9.8 and made a few hundred bucks - good for them and I hope they do it again and again and again! It does not affect MY life any and really could care less what they do with their time and money. They earned their money, they should be able to do whatever they want with it. What gets my ire going are the malcontents that INSULT others in the Comics Hobby with their too-much-time-on-their-hands vendettas and trolling against CGC comics and their followers and users.

 

Hopefully the malcontents will just fade away.

[jbud73]

As in any endeavor, people on all sides of the moral scale tried to jump on the bandwagon to make a profit. Some became Dealers, some stayed small, many came and went. The dishonest eventually leave the hobby, as in any other business. The GRADING of the hobby's product, the Comic Books themselves, became the central point of discontent.

 

Excellent post, though I couldn't disagree more with this point to the very fibre of my being, it is quite naive to be sure.

[joe_collector]

It does not affect MY life any

 

This is where we disagree, and I adhere to a "don't add to the world's problems" point of view, and always have.

 

Think Butterfly Effect.

 

On greedy spec dealer fleeces a sheep in NY, and the Toyko stock exchange melts down.