I am going to re-read Liefelds New Mutants run.

[MutantKeys]

I've never owned any New Mutants done by RL!!

[COI]

, you guys are all full of spoon because you were all buying this spoon when it was hitting the stands.

 

Absolutely....15 copies at a time.

 

 

A friend of mine at the time complained about New Mutants #93, saying Wolverine had a "butt" drawn on his forearm.

 

While I agreed, I still thought it was neato keen.

 

Exciting times to be an X-Fan, 1990-1991.

 

 

You bought 15 copies of that stuff? Please tell me it was just for speculative purposes...while that makes me feel dirty...the other possibility just makes me

 

There's a ton of bad comic art, and I'd go so far as to say that most of it is bad. Robbie gets a disproportionate amount of flak for his art because, deep down, I think most collectors resent the fact that they bought the hype and made him rich in the early '90s.

 

If you get wasted and wake up next to a transvestite, it isn't the tranny's fault.

[COI]

I've never owned any New Mutants done by RL!!

 

That's because you were like 2 years old when they came out.

[MutantKeys]

I've never owned any New Mutants done by RL!!

 

That's because you were like 2 years old when they came out.

Thank God

 

 

[JuliusSeizure]

The NM covers aren't bad, no worse than a lot of contemporary comic art. Seems like the more popular Liefeld got, though, the more his art devolved into caricature.

[Logan510]

, you guys are all full of spoon because you were all buying this spoon when it was hitting the stands.

 

Absolutely....15 copies at a time.

 

 

A friend of mine at the time complained about New Mutants #93, saying Wolverine had a "butt" drawn on his forearm.

 

While I agreed, I still thought it was neato keen.

 

Exciting times to be an X-Fan, 1990-1991.

 

 

You bought 15 copies of that stuff? Please tell me it was just for speculative purposes...while that makes me feel dirty...the other possibility just makes me

 

There's a ton of bad comic art, and I'd go so far as to say that most of it is bad. Robbie gets a disproportionate amount of flak for his art because, deep down, I think most collectors resent the fact that they bought the hype and made him rich in the early '90s.

 

If you get wasted and wake up next to a transvestite, it isn't the tranny's fault.

 

Good point, but as I said further up the thread I don't begrudge him his success. I give him all the credit in the world for not only breaking into the pro ranks, but being able to generate such a large fan base. That doesn't change the fact that his art is just plain bad

[VintageComics]

The NM covers aren't bad, no worse than a lot of contemporary comic art. Seems like the more popular Liefeld got, though, the more his art devolved into caricature.

 

Every artist seems to go through the same cycle. Byrne, Adams, Miller.

 

I'm obviously not putting Liefeld into the same class but 20 years ago many people gobbled the stuff up just like Art Adams, Mcfarlane and Mignola, Paul Smith etc etc. I know I did. It was cartoony and it was more than just acceptable at the time.

[VintageComics]

 

If you get wasted and wake up next to a transvestite, it isn't the tranny's fault.

 

This is top quality life lesson material here. I'm going to have to remember this one for my kids when they can handle it.

 

 

 

[DrWatson]

If you get wasted and wake up next to a transvestite, it isn't the tranny's fault.

I disagree. The should have been disclosed.

[RockMyAmadeus]

, you guys are all full of spoon because you were all buying this spoon when it was hitting the stands.

 

Absolutely....15 copies at a time.

 

 

A friend of mine at the time complained about New Mutants #93, saying Wolverine had a "butt" drawn on his forearm.

 

While I agreed, I still thought it was neato keen.

 

Exciting times to be an X-Fan, 1990-1991.

 

 

You bought 15 copies of that stuff? Please tell me it was just for speculative purposes...while that makes me feel dirty...the other possibility just makes me

 

Um....what other reason would someone want 15 copies, perv?

[RockMyAmadeus]

How else did Robbie make all his scratch?

 

X-Force and Youngblood, of course.

 

Certainly not New Mutants.

 

New Mutants wasn't the direct source of his bling, but it was the catalyst; you know that's what I meant, nitpicker.

 

Wait, hold still....I SAID don't MOVE....

 

> pick <

 

Sniff, sniffffff....

 

> CHOMP! <

 

Mmmmmmm...tastes like BBQ.

 

 

Carry on.

[RockMyAmadeus]

, you guys are all full of spoon because you were all buying this spoon when it was hitting the stands.

 

Absolutely....15 copies at a time.

 

 

A friend of mine at the time complained about New Mutants #93, saying Wolverine had a "butt" drawn on his forearm.

 

While I agreed, I still thought it was neato keen.

 

Exciting times to be an X-Fan, 1990-1991.

 

 

You bought 15 copies of that stuff? Please tell me it was just for speculative purposes...while that makes me feel dirty...the other possibility just makes me

 

There's a ton of bad comic art, and I'd go so far as to say that most of it is bad. Robbie gets a disproportionate amount of flak for his art because, deep down, I think most collectors resent the fact that they bought the hype and made him rich in the early '90s.

 

If you get wasted and wake up next to a transvestite, it isn't the tranny's fault.

 

Of course, that's not true at all.

 

Robbie gets flak because of two really basic, simple reasons:

 

1. He never GOT BETTER as an artist. In fact, he got worse. He never properly learned how to draw many, many things, and what he DID know how to draw, he abadoned. Compare Hawk & Dove with Youngbood #1, 2, or 3. The man got lazy, and everyone knew it.

 

2. Once he "made it", he made laziness an ARTFORM. No creator in history...and I mean this,quite literally....was as slovenly as Rob Liefeld when it came to actually PRODUCING the work he was contracted to do...so much so that Marvel essentially fired him after only six issues of Heroes Return Avengers & Cap, even though Heroes Return was a smash hit. The man got lazy, and everyone knew it.

 

Everyone loved his New Mutants work because it was DIFFERENT (and very few had seen Hawk & Dove.) It was fresh and exciting...but even STILL, you could see problems developing. Ever thumb through a copy of New Mutants #100...? It's horrific. It's nothing but empty colored panels with various characters standing in front of them, with no wrists, ankles, and 70 inch legs and arms....not to mention gigantic boobs. And that's not even counting the women.

[Logan510]

 

 

 

Everyone loved his New Mutants work because it was DIFFERENT (and very few had seen Hawk & Dove.) It was fresh and exciting...but even STILL, you could see problems developing. Ever thumb through a copy of New Mutants #100...? It's horrific. It's nothing but empty colored panels with various characters standing in front of them, with no wrists, ankles, and 70 inch legs and arms....not to mention gigantic boobs. And that's not even counting the women.

 

 

I don't know how different it was. He basically set out to do a monthly version of Art Adams and has said as much in interviews. I will say that his early work..by no means good...did have a lot of energy.

[Kenglo1]

Liefeld was a nasty blot on comics. I find it amusing that some posters attest it to laziness but it is just downright *spoon* awful.

Just because YOU bought his crud please dont go dragging the rest of us down.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Liefeld was a nasty blot on comics. I find it amusing that some posters attest it to laziness but it is just downright *spoon* awful.

Just because YOU bought his crud please dont go dragging the rest of us down.

 

Are you drunk?

[VintageComics]

Liefeld was a nasty blot on comics. I find it amusing that some posters attest it to laziness but it is just downright *spoon* awful.

Just because YOU bought his crud please dont go dragging the rest of us down.

 

Disclaimer.

 

Anybody who want's to avoid my philosophical point of view please ignore.

 

At the expense (or risk, take your pick) of being called a relativist again, I am going to say that the beauty of art is in the eye of the beholder. Now I know that this is a cliche, but take a moment to think about this: each person has a different reason for liking something. Expression is personal and how someone interprets that expression is going to be different to everyone. I say a color looks green and to someone else it looks blue. I get that a lot with navy vs. black as well...each person has a reason that they perceive something a different way. I know it sounds wacky but I love to figure out why people differ on things rather than just hearing whether they like it or not.

 

Anatomically the guy stinks. I've seen worse, but not much worse.

 

From an expressive point of view he's doing what people like (or liked in comics)..the men look verile (small heads, big muscles), the women have big boobs and long hair, the scenes are a little over the top.

 

It's like comparing Picasso to Robert Bateman. The two are both considered greats but are the two comparable?

 

It takes two very different type of perspectives and/or mind sets to appreciate them.

 

 

[Dale Roberts]

, you guys are all full of spoon because you were all buying this spoon when it was hitting the stands.

 

Absolutely....15 copies at a time.

 

 

A friend of mine at the time complained about New Mutants #93, saying Wolverine had a "butt" drawn on his forearm.

 

While I agreed, I still thought it was neato keen.

 

Exciting times to be an X-Fan, 1990-1991.

 

 

You bought 15 copies of that stuff? Please tell me it was just for speculative purposes...while that makes me feel dirty...the other possibility just makes me

 

There's a ton of bad comic art, and I'd go so far as to say that most of it is bad. Robbie gets a disproportionate amount of flak for his art because, deep down, I think most collectors resent the fact that they bought the hype and made him rich in the early '90s.

 

If you get wasted and wake up next to a transvestite, it isn't the tranny's fault.

 

Of course, that's not true at all.

 

Robbie gets flak because of two really basic, simple reasons:

 

1. He never GOT BETTER as an artist. In fact, he got worse. He never properly learned how to draw many, many things, and what he DID know how to draw, he abadoned. Compare Hawk & Dove with Youngbood #1, 2, or 3. The man got lazy, and everyone knew it.

 

2. Once he "made it", he made laziness an ARTFORM. No creator in history...and I mean this,quite literally....was as slovenly as Rob Liefeld when it came to actually PRODUCING the work he was contracted to do...so much so that Marvel essentially fired him after only six issues of Heroes Return Avengers & Cap, even though Heroes Return was a smash hit. The man got lazy, and everyone knew it.

 

Everyone loved his New Mutants work because it was DIFFERENT (and very few had seen Hawk & Dove.) It was fresh and exciting...but even STILL, you could see problems developing. Ever thumb through a copy of New Mutants #100...? It's horrific. It's nothing but empty colored panels with various characters standing in front of them, with no wrists, ankles, and 70 inch legs and arms....not to mention gigantic boobs. And that's not even counting the women.

 

I tend to agree with Roy here. It was different. It was exaggerated. It was what people wanted at the time. People were buying that up. Image was founded on NO STORY, only pretty pictures. The ones with a story made it (Spawn, Witchblade, Savage Dragon). Everything else went away. They all got lazy and they all got greedy. Who cares.

 

Practically every artist I can think of who has gotten popular has learned shortcuts, and generally there work suffered from it, but they were able to turn out more books. Adams, Kirby, Byrne, Starlin, Wrightson, McFarlane and Jim Lee. This is not unique to Liefeld.

 

The problem with Rob (IMO) was that he got too big before he really learned how to draw. People ate his stuff up and he probably didn't think he needed to do anything different. Can certainly understand how a 24 year old kid could buy into that. Money, popularity, and the biggest selling books on the market.

[RockMyAmadeus]

, you guys are all full of spoon because you were all buying this spoon when it was hitting the stands.

 

Absolutely....15 copies at a time.

 

 

A friend of mine at the time complained about New Mutants #93, saying Wolverine had a "butt" drawn on his forearm.

 

While I agreed, I still thought it was neato keen.

 

Exciting times to be an X-Fan, 1990-1991.

 

 

You bought 15 copies of that stuff? Please tell me it was just for speculative purposes...while that makes me feel dirty...the other possibility just makes me

 

There's a ton of bad comic art, and I'd go so far as to say that most of it is bad. Robbie gets a disproportionate amount of flak for his art because, deep down, I think most collectors resent the fact that they bought the hype and made him rich in the early '90s.

 

If you get wasted and wake up next to a transvestite, it isn't the tranny's fault.

 

Of course, that's not true at all.

 

Robbie gets flak because of two really basic, simple reasons:

 

1. He never GOT BETTER as an artist. In fact, he got worse. He never properly learned how to draw many, many things, and what he DID know how to draw, he abadoned. Compare Hawk & Dove with Youngbood #1, 2, or 3. The man got lazy, and everyone knew it.

 

2. Once he "made it", he made laziness an ARTFORM. No creator in history...and I mean this,quite literally....was as slovenly as Rob Liefeld when it came to actually PRODUCING the work he was contracted to do...so much so that Marvel essentially fired him after only six issues of Heroes Return Avengers & Cap, even though Heroes Return was a smash hit. The man got lazy, and everyone knew it.

 

Everyone loved his New Mutants work because it was DIFFERENT (and very few had seen Hawk & Dove.) It was fresh and exciting...but even STILL, you could see problems developing. Ever thumb through a copy of New Mutants #100...? It's horrific. It's nothing but empty colored panels with various characters standing in front of them, with no wrists, ankles, and 70 inch legs and arms....not to mention gigantic boobs. And that's not even counting the women.

 

I tend to agree with Roy here. It was different. It was exaggerated. It was what people wanted at the time. People were buying that up. Image was founded on NO STORY, only pretty pictures. The ones with a story made it (Spawn, Witchblade, Savage Dragon). Everything else went away. They all got lazy and they all got greedy. Who cares.

 

Practically every artist I can think of who has gotten popular has learned shortcuts, and generally there work suffered from it, but they were able to turn out more books. Adams, Kirby, Byrne, Starlin, Wrightson, McFarlane and Jim Lee. This is not unique to Liefeld.

 

The problem with Rob (IMO) was that he got too big before he really learned how to draw. People ate his stuff up and he probably didn't think he needed to do anything different. Can certainly understand how a 24 year old kid could buy into that. Money, popularity, and the biggest selling books on the market.

 

Roy...?

 

When did I become Roy...??

 

[Logan510]

When did Adams take shortcuts so he could turn out more books? Did he ever have the reputation of being prolific? I'm not bashing on Adams here because he is a god who walks among men as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

@ Roy - Several years ago on an AOL chat I asked John Byrne what he thought about Liefeld's work and taste etc. He basically responded that taste in art was subjective but some art is just plain bad. I tend to go with what he said

[comix4fun]

Sorry, was thinking of the wrong book. It is #86. Here it is.... Look at Caps body. . His shoulders, chest, knees, legs, and waist are all turned differently.

Look, I am not trying to knock on Kirby (and I could show comic evidence if I wanted), I am just saying that Liefeld is not the only one in comics who does unrealistic poses and out of proportioned bodies, but he catches more slack than everyone else put together.

 

The comparison, if you want to make it honestly and completely, is not complete by using a simple snap shot of one cover and saying "Kirby got away with it and Liefeld doesn't". Just like anything else in life if you want to get cut some slack it might help to earn the slack in the first place.

 

Take a look at February 1967, an almost 50 year old Jack Kirby, a guy that's been in the field for 30 years, is carrying Marvel comics on his back.

 

That month, February 1967, Jack Kirby completed 4 covers, and 63 pages of interior artwork and ALL the books came out on time.

 

There were entire YEARS where Rob could not get than many covers and pages done on time much less do it all in one month. And even given that much time and space and lack of workload the quality did not improve one iota.

 

So that might be why Kirby get's cut some slack from time to time. He had steadily improved over 30 years in the field and he worked his OFF like no one before or since. If he failed on a cover or two people cut him slack, because he earned the slack.

 

For every Kirby cover of questionable quality you think you see there are probably 3 more just from that month's newstand that were great if not spectacular.

 

I mean, Kirby produced something like 25,000 pages over his lifetime. I would expect you to be able to find some that you don't like. It's the fact that he put an entire company on his back and carried it and the vast majority of his work was incredible, influential, on-time, and ground breaking is why people cut Kirby slack for the few that he didn't hit out of the park. He earned that respect, he wasn't handed it.

 

Best,

Chris