Fraud from a seller -

[nochips]

Maybe I need to put this in comic book terms in case your mind can't handle a non comic book comparison. You buy a comic book from someone..send it to CGC, comes back a 7.5 Qualified "pages 11&12 missing" You email the seller and he say "you saw the book,I know nothing about any page missing,a deal is a deal" Wouldn't you be mad?

 

Nice insult. Smart.....How about this Kevin: You buy a book as NM 9.2. The book is nice and you love it. You send it to CGC and they call it an 8.5. You want a refund three months later? It was good enough for you the day it arrived but months later it's over-graded and you were cheated? Do you make any decisions on your own or do you want others to tell you when a deal is right or wrong? Do you wait for other people to tell you something is a good deal before you buy?

 

If that Hulk 181 was sent to CGC and they told you the stamp was missing would you hunt the seller down months later for a refund? I bet you would! He ripped you off and CGC had to tell you that?

 

Buy slabbed books only. It sounds like you have little or no confidence in your own grading skills.

 

Wrap your arms around that comic book comparison.

[short_box-migration]

Maybe I need to put this in comic book terms in case your mind can't handle a non comic book comparison. You buy a comic book from someone..send it to CGC, comes back a 7.5 Qualified "pages 11&12 missing" You email the seller and he say "you saw the book,I know nothing about any page missing,a deal is a deal" Wouldn't you be mad?

 

I'd be mad at myself for being a , for not even knowing how to count to 16

[nochips]

Maybe I need to put this in comic book terms in case your mind can't handle a non comic book comparison. You buy a comic book from someone..send it to CGC, comes back a 7.5 Qualified "pages 11&12 missing" You email the seller and he say "you saw the book,I know nothing about any page missing,a deal is a deal" Wouldn't you be mad?

 

I'd be mad at myself for being a , for not even knowing how to count to 16

 

Is that really the issue here?

 

What if he paid $10.00 for the book, the seller claimed it was missing pages. He gets home and counts the pages and discovers they are all there. Does he call the buyer back and offer him more money because the book is nicer than advertised? I really doubt that's happening here.

[CKB]

I'd just like to point back to my post in the original thread about this book:

 

Post Link

 

I just have to restate how (using a kind word) UNWISE it is to buy a big book like this from a random seller, not CGC'd. There's a reason the book is not in a slab. You're lucky if it's just overgraded - it's more likely the truth is worse.

 

I don't know how this deal went, but with what I have been reading, it looks like a straight scam. IMHO. If the seller gave the buyer a real name and address, it's possible the scammer is up the chain of owners a bit and this seller was unaware of the missing page as well. Or, the seller just figured it would cost more to sue him than the price of the book.

 

[short_box-migration]

Maybe I need to put this in comic book terms in case your mind can't handle a non comic book comparison. You buy a comic book from someone..send it to CGC, comes back a 7.5 Qualified "pages 11&12 missing" You email the seller and he say "you saw the book,I know nothing about any page missing,a deal is a deal" Wouldn't you be mad?

 

I'd be mad at myself for being a , for not even knowing how to count to 16

 

Is that really the issue here?

 

What if he paid $10.00 for the book, the seller claimed it was missing pages. He gets home and counts the pages and discovers they are all there. Does he call the buyer back and offer him more money because the book is nicer than advertised? I really doubt that's happening here.

 

Then the seller is a who can't count to 16

[comicartfan]

Maybe I need to put this in comic book terms in case your mind can't handle a non comic book comparison. You buy a comic book from someone..send it to CGC, comes back a 7.5 Qualified "pages 11&12 missing" You email the seller and he say "you saw the book,I know nothing about any page missing,a deal is a deal" Wouldn't you be mad?

 

Nice insult. Smart.....How about this Kevin: You buy a book as NM 9.2. The book is nice and you love it. You send it to CGC and they call it an 8.5. You want a refund three months later? It was good enough for you the day it arrived but months later it's over-graded and you were cheated? Do you make any decisions on your own or do you want others to tell you when a deal is right or wrong? Do you wait for other people to tell you something is a good deal before you buy?

 

If that Hulk 181 was sent to CGC and they told you the stamp was missing would you hunt the seller down months later for a refund? I bet you would! He ripped you off and CGC had to tell you that?

 

Buy slabbed books only. It sounds like you have little or no confidence in your own grading skills.

 

Wrap your arms around that comic book comparison.

 

Well, I am not really about "changing the rules." I think I am more about, can I hold him accountable ?......Correct me if I am wrong, but I am reading in your post that me, as the buyer, should just accept the fact that I missed the page. I am to blame....Is that what you're saying ? - Should I have caught it ? Probably. But at the same time, there needs to be some sort of accountabilty on the part of the seller. When you read my emails to him, maybe you'll have a different take. Maybe not.

 

It really burns me that he intentionally (in my opinion) misrepresented himself and I knew there was a chance that I would have to eat the loss. It's ok, I've lost more than just the money from this book in this hobby...it's part of the game. I am more furious about his arrogance and reaction. I will post what email correspondense I have from him. I may end up looking foolish, I may lose the 'court case", but I also plan on fighting it regardless. I won't get burned and at least not try to do something about it. Someone thinks it's a fool's errand, that's ok....

 

I don't have the "original ad" per se for Craig's List. It was deleted.

 

Look, I am not going to trade insults with you or anyone else because of thier point of view. It's immature and unproductive. If people want to say they think this or they think that, that's fine....Whatever.....

 

This is exactly what I find just mind boggling. People who have never met each other, have no prior history and in alot of cases on these boards, don't even know the other's real name, throw insults, act childish or instigate arguments over trival stuff like grading skills or which character's breasts are bigger......

 

I guess because I deal with people at end of life, where the familes have to watch their loved ones waste away to a shell of what that person once was that I find the nonsense on these boards so hard to stomach.

 

I have met some incredibly smart people on here, people who I may not agree with, but have learned ALOT. I've made some great contacts and for the most part, I enjoy the conversations. But I won't engage in flame wars......And Kevin76 (or anyone else) doesn't speak for me. Don't lump me into his banter because we're related......

 

[nochips]

Well said (thumbs u

[comicartfan]

 

 

 

 

 

 

p.s. I looked at your auctions, there is some really nice books there....I may just be picking a few up....

[comicartfan]

Here is the intial response I got back from him when I first inquired :

 

This was the headline : COMIC BOOK Incredible Hulk 181 NM- Condition - $600 (johnston)

Yes I do still have this book, as well as other bronze and silver age books that are available. I;m going through some of my stuff now and compiling a list....some of the books are CGC certified as well. I don't have a scanner ..sorry. I had this copy of 181 looked at by a dealer at an auction house an he told me if certified it would rate around a 9.2....I know (have to go to other house to confirm, holiday time with kids is crazy ) that I have another copy of 181 certified at a 9.6....(not sure what to do with this one because the 2 auction houses i know of just sold these for 10K ). But if you would like to get together to see the book that would be fine? Do you live in RI? Pick a place and time and lets see if we can match up

thanks

 

Then this was the second one :

 

the 181 is available right now, the others i have to get to because they aren't

at my house, i can tell you i have a x-men 1 (a fine condition...cover is off

white but there is no marvel chipping and the corners are all good) i have low

x-men some are cgc that i believe go thru to 100...have x-men 94, and giant size

1...can't remember what cgc they are. also have i remember wolverine 1 (series)

cgc 9.0, and i have his mini series all cgc just remember the 1st issue is also

a 9.0....so if you at least want to meet on the 181 and look at it i'm available

this weekend...sunday? emerald square mall (think that is half way between us).

let m eknow

thanks

 

So after I found out about the book, I sent him this email :

 

I had someone look at the Hulk 181 and it's missing the value stamp. So therefore the book is incomplete. I would like to return it, since it's not complete.

 

Please let me know where I can send the book and I'd like a refund of the $400.00

 

I hadn't realised the stamp was missing, since I wasn't exactly sure it was or wasn't there.

 

 

I got this response :

 

Michael,

I have never even heard of this stamp thing of which you speak. You looked at the whole book that night, and you bought it. You have had the book for week now, so I can't vouch for the condition it would be returning to me in. The sale is final.

[N/A]

Seems to me given this dialogue that the missing value stamp/pages should have been caught at time of purchase. If the buyer missed it then couldn't the seller have missed it as well?

Also I have to agree with the seller once the buyer had possession for a week. As much as sellers can scam buyers the reverse is also possible. How can he know it's the same book?

[comicartfan]

I hear what you're saying, but why couldn't I meet with him a second time and have him look at the book ?.....If it was ok for me as a buyer, then it should be ok for a refund.....

 

Like I said, nothing may come of this, but we'll see.

[N/A]

If he's a stand up guy which stills seems possible then he should meet you. I've been scammed by buyers and sellers and most of us have so it's hard to pick a side. The issue to me isn't whether he knew or not because he sold something that he didn't really have. He should take some responsibility. That being said he does have to defend himself.

 

IMHO but not to debate the legal aspect with our lawyer friend. To undo the transaction may not leave both parties as they were before the transaction took place.

[N/A]

In short...I'd try again to talk to him or just drop by and have a chat.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Here is the intial response I got back from him when I first inquired :

 

This was the headline : COMIC BOOK Incredible Hulk 181 NM- Condition - $600 (johnston)

Yes I do still have this book, as well as other bronze and silver age books that are available. I;m going through some of my stuff now and compiling a list....some of the books are CGC certified as well. I don't have a scanner ..sorry. I had this copy of 181 looked at by a dealer at an auction house an he told me if certified it would rate around a 9.2....I know (have to go to other house to confirm, holiday time with kids is crazy ) that I have another copy of 181 certified at a 9.6....(not sure what to do with this one because the 2 auction houses i know of just sold these for 10K ). But if you would like to get together to see the book that would be fine? Do you live in RI? Pick a place and time and lets see if we can match up

thanks

 

Then this was the second one :

 

the 181 is available right now, the others i have to get to because they aren't

at my house, i can tell you i have a x-men 1 (a fine condition...cover is off

white but there is no marvel chipping and the corners are all good) i have low

x-men some are cgc that i believe go thru to 100...have x-men 94, and giant size

1...can't remember what cgc they are. also have i remember wolverine 1 (series)

cgc 9.0, and i have his mini series all cgc just remember the 1st issue is also

a 9.0....so if you at least want to meet on the 181 and look at it i'm available

this weekend...sunday? emerald square mall (think that is half way between us).

let m eknow

thanks

 

So after I found out about the book, I sent him this email :

 

I had someone look at the Hulk 181 and it's missing the value stamp. So therefore the book is incomplete. I would like to return it, since it's not complete.

 

Please let me know where I can send the book and I'd like a refund of the $400.00

 

I hadn't realised the stamp was missing, since I wasn't exactly sure it was or wasn't there.

 

 

I got this response :

 

Michael,

I have never even heard of this stamp thing of which you speak. You looked at the whole book that night, and you bought it. You have had the book for week now, so I can't vouch for the condition it would be returning to me in. The sale is final.

 

Provided this is the actual ad...and there's no reason at this time to think it's not..the book was represented as a "NM-" or "9.2."

 

The seller is clearly aware of grading and "CGC."

 

A book with a page missing page missing is not "NM-" nor anywhere near it, no matter how nice it otherwise looks.

 

Yes, the buyer should have counted the pages. Hopefully, with this experience, he knows better.

 

But the seller...whether through negligence or deceit...did not deliver what was promised. Either way, he's still legally responsible. Even though the buyer had the chance to inspect the merchandise in person, unless the seller stated it was "AS IS", which he did not, and specifically BECAUSE the seller represented the item in a condition it was NOT IN, the buyer is well within his rights to return the merchandise for a refund.

 

In many states, buyers have the right to have merchandise inspected after purchase within a certain period of time (like live animals, vehicles, etc), so that may apply here, too.

 

HOWEVER....if the buyer has no picture of the book in question, it might be rather difficult to prove the book is the one the seller sold to him, should the seller lie and claim it's not the same book. The good thing is that civil judgements are based on a preponderance of the evidence, rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. The buyer could simply offer to have the book submitted to fingerprinting (provided the seller actually held it.)

[Kevin76]

Maybe I need to put this in comic book terms in case your mind can't handle a non comic book comparison. You buy a comic book from someone..send it to CGC, comes back a 7.5 Qualified "pages 11&12 missing" You email the seller and he say "you saw the book,I know nothing about any page missing,a deal is a deal" Wouldn't you be mad?

 

Nice insult. Smart.....How about this Kevin: You buy a book as NM 9.2. The book is nice and you love it. You send it to CGC and they call it an 8.5. You want a refund three months later? It was good enough for you the day it arrived but months later it's over-graded and you were cheated? Do you make any decisions on your own or do you want others to tell you when a deal is right or wrong? Do you wait for other people to tell you something is a good deal before you buy?

 

If that Hulk 181 was sent to CGC and they told you the stamp was missing would you hunt the seller down months later for a refund? I bet you would! He ripped you off and CGC had to tell you that?

 

Buy slabbed books only. It sounds like you have little or no confidence in your own grading skills.

 

No, your not paying attention and not seeing from a buyer's POV. If I buy a book that I think is a 9.2 and it comes back UNRESTORED 8.5 then I take it as is. If it comes back Restored (any gade) Then I want a refund. Wouldn't you? You don't see comic dealers like Bob,Ted,Harley or any other dealer selling raw books that if it comes back from CGC restored,the buyer is stuck with it. They don't tell you "Well you should of caught that,all sales final" Sounds like you don't mind getting ripped off.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"you're"

 

Is it....really, honestly, truly....that hard...?

 

 

 

[sckao]

I suspect that both the buyer and seller agreed that it was not NM- (9.2) since the end price falls around the 7.0-7.5 RAW Overstreet price. ($400)

 

If it were graded and received a Qualified 7.0, it'd still be worth $200-$300 (or more). A qualified 7.0 sold for $328 in Aug-2007.

 

So it's not the end of the world in either case. (Just looking on the bright side...)

 

I agree that it'd be nice for the seller to take his book back and give a refund. If he doesn't, given the other books he's noted as having, I'd publicize his name here... (There's a possibility that he's reading this thread.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kevin76]

"you're"

 

Is it....really, honestly, truly....that hard...?

 

 

 

It was 2:30am I couldn't care less how I spelled it.

[Not*Sure*]

RMA= picky you can chat with me I am more casual about it haha

[nochips]

Maybe I need to put this in comic book terms in case your mind can't handle a non comic book comparison. You buy a comic book from someone..send it to CGC, comes back a 7.5 Qualified "pages 11&12 missing" You email the seller and he say "you saw the book,I know nothing about any page missing,a deal is a deal" Wouldn't you be mad?

 

Nice insult. Smart.....How about this Kevin: You buy a book as NM 9.2. The book is nice and you love it. You send it to CGC and they call it an 8.5. You want a refund three months later? It was good enough for you the day it arrived but months later it's over-graded and you were cheated? Do you make any decisions on your own or do you want others to tell you when a deal is right or wrong? Do you wait for other people to tell you something is a good deal before you buy?

 

If that Hulk 181 was sent to CGC and they told you the stamp was missing would you hunt the seller down months later for a refund? I bet you would! He ripped you off and CGC had to tell you that?

 

Buy slabbed books only. It sounds like you have little or no confidence in your own grading skills.

 

No, your not paying attention and not seeing from a buyer's POV. If I buy a book that I think is a 9.2 and it comes back UNRESTORED 8.5 then I take it as is. If it comes back Restored (any gade) Then I want a refund. Wouldn't you? You don't see comic dealers like Bob,Ted,Harley or any other dealer selling raw books that if it comes back from CGC restored,the buyer is stuck with it. They don't tell you "Well you should of caught that,all sales final" Sounds like you don't mind getting ripped off.

 

 

Kevin I am paying complete attention. Your cheap shots are not helping your cause.

 

He didn't buy it from Harley or Bob. He bought it on Craiglist. You expect some knob on Craigslist to offer a return policy and treat customers like full time comic sellers? That's is why people pay more and buy from dealers with integrity. You get what you pay for. You went to the second hand shop looking for something new off the rack; you found out the item was missing parts. If the second hand shop takes returns you are OK, if they do not, you own it.

 

If I buy something on Craigslist, especially a $1000.00 comic, I expect it to be less than advertised. You cannot expect a first class no hassle guarantee from a guy that advertises for free and does not care about his reputation. Does Harley advertise on Craigslist? I doubt it. Heck even Craigslist tells you to buy local and know your seller.

 

 

Do me a big favor, avoid any of my sales threads. It's apparent you have no confidence in your own grading skills and complain the first chance anything goes wrong.You want everyone else to cover you arse, you likely assume no responsibility for your purchases. It's always the seller fault.