Fraud from a seller -

[Flemmings]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

Your confusing good business practices with legal obligation. Any time something it is sold as-is unless they state some sort of warranty/guarantee.

 

Face it, you messed up because you didn't catch problem with the book. Unless you can prove that the seller had prior knowledge that the page was missing (good luck with that) then you have no legal leg to stand on. Instead you have to rely on his good nature to make a bad deal right.

 

Sorry, that's the way it works.

 

I agree with Strong Guy eventhough it is F'd up what the seller did. Well its F'd up if he knew about it. I would just take my losses and use it as a reader copy. We all still read comics right

 

He can't even read it since a page is torn out, he's missing part of the story.

 

Now that sucks a big one.

[sckao]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

Your confusing good business practices with legal obligation. Any time something it is sold as-is unless they state some sort of warranty/guarantee.

 

Face it, you messed up because you didn't catch problem with the book. Unless you can prove that the seller had prior knowledge that the page was missing (good luck with that) then you have no legal leg to stand on. Instead you have to rely on his good nature to make a bad deal right.

 

Sorry, that's the way it works.

 

I agree with Strong Guy eventhough it is F'd up what the seller did. Well its F'd up if he knew about it. I would just take my losses and use it as a reader copy. We all still read comics right

 

He can't even read it since a page is torn out, he's missing part of the story.

 

It's weird that you would write this when I posted the page in question... (which does not affect the story.)

 

 

[Flemmings]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

Your confusing good business practices with legal obligation. Any time something it is sold as-is unless they state some sort of warranty/guarantee.

 

Face it, you messed up because you didn't catch problem with the book. Unless you can prove that the seller had prior knowledge that the page was missing (good luck with that) then you have no legal leg to stand on. Instead you have to rely on his good nature to make a bad deal right.

 

Sorry, that's the way it works.

 

I agree with Strong Guy eventhough it is F'd up what the seller did. Well its F'd up if he knew about it. I would just take my losses and use it as a reader copy. We all still read comics right

 

He can't even read it since a page is torn out, he's missing part of the story.

 

It's weird that you would write this when I posted the page in question... (which does not affect the story.)

 

 

Thats what I thought when I wrote it. So I was right that doesn't happen to often

[RockMyAmadeus]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

Your confusing good business practices with legal obligation. Any time something it is sold as-is unless they state some sort of warranty/guarantee.

 

Face it, you messed up because you didn't catch problem with the book. Unless you can prove that the seller had prior knowledge that the page was missing (good luck with that) then you have no legal leg to stand on. Instead you have to rely on his good nature to make a bad deal right.

 

Sorry, that's the way it works.

 

I agree with Strong Guy eventhough it is F'd up what the seller did. Well its F'd up if he knew about it. I would just take my losses and use it as a reader copy. We all still read comics right

 

He can't even read it since a page is torn out, he's missing part of the story.

 

It's weird that you would write this when I posted the page in question... (which does not affect the story.)

 

 

I've discovered that a lot of posters here can't be bothered to read an entire thread before responding.

 

I was about to post that very thing, but figured what the hell...it probably wouldn't be read anyways.

 

And I'm not the only one who's discovered this.

[sckao]

*Sigh*

 

Lesson #1...

 

COUNT the pages...I've missed clipped coupons because I tend to hold the book in the middle so I don't mess up the spine, but one of the first things I was taught..was COUNT the pages

 

Not that I haven't missed a few myself...but if you have the opportunity to buy a book in person, you really need to count them.

 

OK, back to Comics Court...I'm enjoying the intelligent viewpoints.

 

This only works if you know HOW MANY PAGES THERE SHOULD BE in the first place right?

 

I've never actually owned a Hulk #181...

 

 

 

 

 

16 leaves for almost every standard book from 1954-2009. 8 before the staples, 8 after.

 

1 leaf = 2 "pages" (that is, one physical page printed front and back, and 1/2 of a complete sheet before folding and stapling.)

 

Most saddle-stitched (ie, stapled)) Golden Age books prior to 1943 have 32 (or 28) leaves, with 16 or 14 on each side of the staple, then after about 1943, books became standard at 24 leaves until about 1952, when the page count was reduced to either 20 leaves or 16 leaves total (except ECs, which were 16 leaves total from 1950-up.)

 

Since page count varied widely until 1954, always check the specific book's supposed page count before counting actual pages. Batman #86, for example, has 12 leaves before the staple, and 8 leaves after. They simply took four sheets, cut them almost in half, then bound the book that way...this was during the transition from 24 leaves to 16. The result is that the book looks like someone neatly cut out 4 pages from the second half.

 

Other than "Giants" and "Annuals", I've never seen a regular comic published from 1954-2009 that was anything other than 16 leaves total.

 

 

That actually makes a lot of sense. (thumbs u

 

Unless you have a table to lay the comic down on, as a seller, I'd hate to see a bunch of potential buyers page through my Hulk 181 while standing up.

 

I just did it with a modern comic and it was hard to separate the pages and do a count while standing up holding the comic.

 

It's just asking for thumb creases, cover indents, etc.

 

 

 

 

[Kevin76]

Well Comicartfan (my brother) called me just now and he's taking it to small claims court, he has the sellers name/address and email respones and craigslist ad which stated a NM copy. He's talked to lawyers and they've stated he has a case.

[RockMyAmadeus]

*Sigh*

 

Lesson #1...

 

COUNT the pages...I've missed clipped coupons because I tend to hold the book in the middle so I don't mess up the spine, but one of the first things I was taught..was COUNT the pages

 

Not that I haven't missed a few myself...but if you have the opportunity to buy a book in person, you really need to count them.

 

OK, back to Comics Court...I'm enjoying the intelligent viewpoints.

 

This only works if you know HOW MANY PAGES THERE SHOULD BE in the first place right?

 

I've never actually owned a Hulk #181...

 

 

 

 

 

16 leaves for almost every standard book from 1954-2009. 8 before the staples, 8 after.

 

1 leaf = 2 "pages" (that is, one physical page printed front and back, and 1/2 of a complete sheet before folding and stapling.)

 

Most saddle-stitched (ie, stapled)) Golden Age books prior to 1943 have 32 (or 28) leaves, with 16 or 14 on each side of the staple, then after about 1943, books became standard at 24 leaves until about 1952, when the page count was reduced to either 20 leaves or 16 leaves total (except ECs, which were 16 leaves total from 1950-up.)

 

Since page count varied widely until 1954, always check the specific book's supposed page count before counting actual pages. Batman #86, for example, has 12 leaves before the staple, and 8 leaves after. They simply took four sheets, cut them almost in half, then bound the book that way...this was during the transition from 24 leaves to 16. The result is that the book looks like someone neatly cut out 4 pages from the second half.

 

Other than "Giants" and "Annuals", I've never seen a regular comic published from 1954-2009 that was anything other than 16 leaves total.

 

 

That actually makes a lot of sense. (thumbs u

 

Unless you have a table to lay the comic down on, as a seller, I'd hate to see a bunch of potential buyers page through my Hulk 181 while standing up.

 

I just did it with a modern comic and it was hard to separate the pages and do a count while standing up holding the comic.

 

It's just asking for thumb creases, cover indents, etc.

 

 

 

 

I know, it makes me nervous, too. You're just begging for indents.

 

I'd much rather hold the book myself and count for the potential buyer on a VF or better book...

[sckao]

Well Comicartfan (my brother) called me just now and he's taking it to small claims court, he has the sellers name/address and email respones and craigslist ad which stated a NM copy. He's talked to lawyers and they've stated he has a case.

 

Clearly not a NM copy if it has a page missing...

 

Was it NM otherwise? (Which would be a shame.)

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Well Comicartfan (my brother) called me just now and he's taking it to small claims court, he has the sellers name/address and email respones and craigslist ad which stated a NM copy. He's talked to lawyers and they've stated he has a case.

 

If the seller stated it was a NM copy, then yes, it should by definition have all the pages.

 

Please post the ad!

[Kevin76]

Well Comicartfan (my brother) called me just now and he's taking it to small claims court, he has the sellers name/address and email respones and craigslist ad which stated a NM copy. He's talked to lawyers and they've stated he has a case.

 

Clearly not a NM copy if it has a page missing...

 

Was it NM otherwise? (Which would be a shame.)

 

 

No he said it was more of a 7.5

[comix4fun]

Well Comicartfan (my brother) called me just now and he's taking it to small claims court, he has the sellers name/address and email respones and craigslist ad which stated a NM copy. He's talked to lawyers and they've stated he has a case.

 

Clearly not a NM copy if it has a page missing...

 

Was it NM otherwise? (Which would be a shame.)

 

 

No he said it was more of a 7.5

 

 

Which is impossible if it has a page missing. So it's either a lie, or negligence on the part of the seller.

 

While it's true that the purchaser was negligent in his initial inspection of the book, the seller was AT LEAST as negligent as the buyer and possibly fraudulent in his description and inspection of his own item for sale.

 

The law is not built to allow seller's to use "gotcha" business practices. If you sell an item and you hold it out to be something it is not you cannot expect to hide behind "a deals a deal"

 

The law is built on equity, and there is zero equity in allowing sellers to hide defects, pass off defective merchandise as non-defective, or fail to inspect their own merchandise for sale if they are going to make assertions as to their quality.

 

In this case the seller voluntarily took on the task of assigning a grade to the item. This grade is impossible given the defect. When he took on that task he also took on the responsibility to ensure that the grade given was correct or at least possible. When the book fails to meet assigned grade he should take steps to correct his mistake.

 

It's not a clear cut victory for the buyer in this case, there are no clear cut victories in court. However, there's no chance I would let a seller get away with this behavior. He is either dishonest or hiding behind a wall of his own negligence.

 

 

[sckao]

What happens if he inspects the merchandise, sees that it is NOT NM as advertised (since it was around 7.5), and then buys it anyway?

 

Doesn't that mean he has accepted that the item is not NM?

 

[comix4fun]

What happens if he inspects the merchandise, sees that it is NOT NM as advertised (since it was around 7.5), and then buys it anyway?

 

Doesn't that mean he has accepted that the item is not NM?

 

 

I thought the seller called it a 7.5, didn't he?

 

Or is this a hypothetical?

 

Either way I would love to see the original ad he placed.

[sckao]

 

I think the ad said NM. The seller's brother said it was 7.5.

 

[nochips]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

And to say to Chris, "you need to take off your lawyer hat on this one" is insane. A person doesn't look the other way or excuse bad behavior......A cop doesn't "take his law enforcement hat off when he's off duty.....When a family member is in the hospital and I see something that is negligent, I don't take my RN hat off.........

...I don't know if I will win in small claims court or not, but I have alot of evidence (emails) that he KNEW alot about comics, CGC and mentioned several dealers he knew personally.

 

 

Wow, that is some twisted reasoning. Really.

[Kevin76]

The seller said it was a 9.2 NM..The buyer (Comicartfan) said it was more of a 7.5...I've seen my brother's grading of course he can usually either nail it from CGC or come within a half grade or so. The seller is playing stupid. The buyer can't post the ad online atm since he is working tonight.

[Kevin76]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

And to say to Chris, "you need to take off your lawyer hat on this one" is insane. A person doesn't look the other way or excuse bad behavior......A cop doesn't "take his law enforcement hat off when he's off duty.....When a family member is in the hospital and I see something that is negligent, I don't take my RN hat off.........

...I don't know if I will win in small claims court or not, but I have alot of evidence (emails) that he KNEW alot about comics, CGC and mentioned several dealers he knew personally.

 

 

Wow, that is some twisted reasoning. Really.

 

Maybe his reasoning is way over your head? *puts on the kid gloves* OK. You buy a car, the used car salesman says "it's mechanically sound and it has 50,000 miles on it" You check Carfax. Odometer has been winded back. It really has 150,000 miles on it. You call the car salesman and tell him you want a refund Used Car salesman says "You looked at the odometer,a deal is a deal" You going to live with that kind of excuse and walk away with your head down and say to yourself.."He's right!' F THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kevin76]

Maybe I need to put this in comic book terms in case your mind can't handle a non comic book comparison. You buy a comic book from someone..send it to CGC, comes back a 7.5 Qualified "pages 11&12 missing" You email the seller and he say "you saw the book,I know nothing about any page missing,a deal is a deal" Wouldn't you be mad?

[nochips]

This is NOT fraud. You went to meet him, looked over the book, and paid him. How is that fraud? If you bought the book sight unseen you can claim fraud. It's hard to claim a crime was committed when you had a chance to view the item ahead of time? Did I miss something?

 

I do not see anything wrong here. Sorry.

 

Based on this statement, I take it if you went into Home Depot, for example and bought a drill. You get it home, open it up and see that something is missing. You would take it back and expect to get a refund. You wouldn't expect them to say, "You had time to inspect it before you bought it " ....So why is it different for an individual ? - It's not. -

 

And to say to Chris, "you need to take off your lawyer hat on this one" is insane. A person doesn't look the other way or excuse bad behavior......A cop doesn't "take his law enforcement hat off when he's off duty.....When a family member is in the hospital and I see something that is negligent, I don't take my RN hat off.........

...I don't know if I will win in small claims court or not, but I have alot of evidence (emails) that he KNEW alot about comics, CGC and mentioned several dealers he knew personally.

 

 

Wow, that is some twisted reasoning. Really.

 

Maybe his reasoning is way over your head? *puts on the kid gloves* OK. You buy a car, the used car salesman says "it's mechanically sound and it has 50,000 miles on it" You check Carfax. Odometer has been winded back. It really has 150,000 miles on it. You call the car salesman and tell him you want a refund Used Car salesman says "You looked at the odometer,a deal is a deal" You going to live with that kind of excuse and walk away with your head down and say to yourself.."He's right!' F THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Nope, not over my head at all. You guys are missing the point of this whole event. More twisted reasoning. You should check Carfax before you buy the car, not after. That's the issue here.

 

You did not find the stamp missing until after the book was paid for and back at home. You had a chance to really look it over, you missed it and you want the seller to come clean and admit he knew. It really doesn't matter what he knew. The book was checked out before the deal was done. Now you want to change the rules.

 

We have laws against turning an odometer back. We do not have laws in place to protect consumers from missing a clipped Marvel value stamp.

 

 

[comicwiz]

If the Craigslist ad was this one:

 

Oct 1 - ~ Hulk 181~ 1st Wolverine!!! - (Bowie) pic <

 

It might be useful to know that the seller was eagerly marketing the book in several markets. What's interesting is that Craigslist usually has a way of blocking this kind of thing (its actually against their TOS to list in multiple markets), but this person was savvy enough to figure out a way to post in 4 different zones (8 total markets):

 

DC - washington

MD - baltimore

MD - eastern shore

MD - annapolis

MD - southern md

MD - frederick

PA - york

VA - fredericksburg

 

Unfortunately, due to the amount of time that has passed, I wasn't able to locate a cached copy of the original listing. If you have a copy of the listing saved somewhere, it would be a good idea to keep it stored away in case its needed.