How in the world did this go unnoticed???

[MrBedrock]

If I owned say an original and very famous Renoir painting and I was an extremely famous and legendary figure in the world, let's say I somehow was murdered in front of this painting. Is the resulting painting (now splattered with blood) worth more now or should it be cleaned? Because it is now of quasi-historical value, should it be kept in this current state?

Colonel Mustard, in the library, with a candlestick?

[sterlingcomics]

I'll visit you when you get your face lift (not before about 20 years I hope;) You'll still be Richard!

 

I won't think you NEED a facelift, because to me you will still be the same beautiful person you are now...

 

But I'll understand;) [/color]

Will you visit me if I get butt implants?

I'll test them out for you.

 

xoxo

 

greggy

What exactly does that mean?

<3

[DarkKnightReturns]

If I owned say an original and very famous Renoir painting and I was an extremely famous and legendary figure in the world, let's say I somehow was murdered in front of this painting. Is the resulting painting (now splattered with blood) worth more now or should it be cleaned? Because it is now of quasi-historical value, should it be kept in this current state?

Colonel Mustard, in the library, with a candlestick?

You win the game !

[october]

Nice try, Bob. But, first, that isn't "my business". I'm an investor who suffers like everybody else when all the banks, companies, ratings agencies, etc. who are supposed to be helping me, their customer, fail to do their jobs or abuse their positions.

 

Second of all, all of those activities you mentioned ARE, indeed, deplorable. That's why Bernie Madoff, Bernie Ebbers, Jeff Skilling, etc. are in JAIL. That's why Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken did HARD TIME. That's why Sandy Weill got booted from Citigroup and is OUT OF A JOB. That's why all those Wall Street banks paid millions (billions?) of dollars of fines for their blatant conflicts of interest in the late 1990s and early 2000s. That's why all these bank execs keep getting dragged up to Capitol Hill to testify about their business activities leading up to the financial meltdown of 2008. They all got what they deserved in the end.

 

Anyway, it's all just classic misdirection yet again. Just because there are some bad apples in the financial world and other industries doesn't justify the lot of you steamrolling every book in your path and laying waste to the historical integrity of comics. Nobody has yet responded to my question of how can a book that has been artificially manipulated to a higher grade can be considered the equal to a book that was cherry picked off the stands and meticulously preserved for decades by its owner(s).

 

I still own hundreds of slabs, though I have sold off a good chunk of my modest collection. I still own many thousands of raw books. As some of you know, I am very active in the original art side of the hobby. And, I continue to buy loads of TPBs, hardcovers and digital comics every month and was continuing to actively buy raw books up until just a year or two ago. I attend conventions, hang out regularly with many Board members and participate almost daily on these Boards. I just no longer buy slabbed high grade - that part of the hobby is forever dead to me now.

 

It doesn't matter if this house of cards eventually comes tumbling down - the damage has been done. It was never enough to "just disclose". Manipulating books has a permanent effect on the rest of collectors and every collector that follows down the line. I wonder if the future Brulatos and Schmells of the world will feel as favorably about pressing as their predecessors. Indeed, after this crack-press-resub game eventually and inevitably implodes upon itself, why would future generations of collectors, with no seat on the current gravy train, even think that it was ever a good idea to pancake all those books that were already beautiful and well-preserved.

 

I'm sure this post will be just as derided by many as my last one. But, judging from the e-mails, PMs and conversations I have with many collectors, both here on the Boards and those who are not, I know that I am far from alone in my feelings about this matter.

I don't want to come off as deriding your position. And I think you bring up some valid points. But (you knew there would be a but) I have a big problem with one thing.

You have stated over and over that, due to "manipulation", you have no desire to purchase high grade comics. You also state that "manipulation" will cause the market to crash. So basically your problem with "manipulation" is its effect on prices and by extension its effect on your potential investment. And that is the part of this whole argument that bothers me. Pressers are called greedy time and again. Obviously money is a motivation for the endeavor. But anti-pressers seem to be motivated by the same greed. If their books are no longer the best, the highest graded, the most valuable then, by golly, they are going to take their ball and go home. And if they can't buy the best without some self-induced stigma attached then they want to take no part in the enjoyment of the books themselves. If that is your position then that is your choice. But it is a position that totally disregards any love for the books themselves other than their monetary value. And it is a position that I can't comprehend.

I respect you for speaking out about the problems you see in the hobby. But I have a problem with your equating those problems with greed, when it appears that your fears of losing money are the reason you no longer want to participate.

 

Collecting, by its very nature, is about as greedy a pursuit as there is. Greed for the best copy, greed for the highest number on the slab, greed for the books worth the most money, greed for full runs, greed for the best art, etc. Virtually nothing about the hobby focuses on helping others, giving to others, or bettering ANYTHING other than one's own collection. It always strikes me as funny when a collector derides someone else for being "greedy", yet seemingly fails to see the rampant greed inherent in collecting itself. Not to mention the fact that the disgust aimed at pressers is generally itself motivated by the desire to keep as many unmanipulated books in the pool as possible. Why? So they can collect them. So altruistic!

[capt_comics]

Historical items are maintained or they will disintegrate or fall down.

 

Scrubbing the patina off a centuries old gun or knife will lower its collectible value... but that's something that the collecting industry has deemed to be "harmful" to its collectibility.

 

 

 

 

(thumbs u

 

 

[capt_comics]

Greed has a HELL of a lot to do with everything in the world today

 

 

Thinking about it..........guess it always has

 

 

Integrity.........not so much

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sterlingcomics]

Nice post, October...long time no see

[october]

Nice post, October...long time no see

 

[Rocketeer]

Collecting, by its very nature, is about as greedy a pursuit as there is. Greed for the best copy, greed for the highest number on the slab, greed for the books worth the most money, greed for full runs, greed for the best art, etc. Virtually nothing about the hobby focuses on helping others, giving to others, or bettering ANYTHING other than one's own collection. It always strikes me as funny when a collector derides someone else for being "greedy", yet seemingly fails to see the rampant greed inherent in collecting itself. Not to mention the fact that the disgust aimed at pressers is generally itself motivated by the desire to keep as many unmanipulated books in the pool as possible. Why? So they can collect them. So altruistic!

 

.....I'm calling BS on this theory,...my father collected cigar bands,...'splain to me like I'm five how greed played any part in his endevour,....there are thousands of people outside of this forum who don't give a hoot about the value of their collection or the condition of their books,...they are just in it for the sheer pleasure of it,...is everyone here that tainted and jaded that they couldn't even consider this a possibility?

[8milemax]

Nice try, Bob. But, first, that isn't "my business". I'm an investor who suffers like everybody else when all the banks, companies, ratings agencies, etc. who are supposed to be helping me, their customer, fail to do their jobs or abuse their positions.

 

Second of all, all of those activities you mentioned ARE, indeed, deplorable. That's why Bernie Madoff, Bernie Ebbers, Jeff Skilling, etc. are in JAIL. That's why Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken did HARD TIME. That's why Sandy Weill got booted from Citigroup and is OUT OF A JOB. That's why all those Wall Street banks paid millions (billions?) of dollars of fines for their blatant conflicts of interest in the late 1990s and early 2000s. That's why all these bank execs keep getting dragged up to Capitol Hill to testify about their business activities leading up to the financial meltdown of 2008. They all got what they deserved in the end.

 

Anyway, it's all just classic misdirection yet again. Just because there are some bad apples in the financial world and other industries doesn't justify the lot of you steamrolling every book in your path and laying waste to the historical integrity of comics. Nobody has yet responded to my question of how can a book that has been artificially manipulated to a higher grade can be considered the equal to a book that was cherry picked off the stands and meticulously preserved for decades by its owner(s).

 

I still own hundreds of slabs, though I have sold off a good chunk of my modest collection. I still own many thousands of raw books. As some of you know, I am very active in the original art side of the hobby. And, I continue to buy loads of TPBs, hardcovers and digital comics every month and was continuing to actively buy raw books up until just a year or two ago. I attend conventions, hang out regularly with many Board members and participate almost daily on these Boards. I just no longer buy slabbed high grade - that part of the hobby is forever dead to me now.

 

It doesn't matter if this house of cards eventually comes tumbling down - the damage has been done. It was never enough to "just disclose". Manipulating books has a permanent effect on the rest of collectors and every collector that follows down the line. I wonder if the future Brulatos and Schmells of the world will feel as favorably about pressing as their predecessors. Indeed, after this crack-press-resub game eventually and inevitably implodes upon itself, why would future generations of collectors, with no seat on the current gravy train, even think that it was ever a good idea to pancake all those books that were already beautiful and well-preserved.

 

I'm sure this post will be just as derided by many as my last one. But, judging from the e-mails, PMs and conversations I have with many collectors, both here on the Boards and those who are not, I know that I am far from alone in my feelings about this matter.

I don't want to come off as deriding your position. And I think you bring up some valid points. But (you knew there would be a but) I have a big problem with one thing.

You have stated over and over that, due to "manipulation", you have no desire to purchase high grade comics. You also state that "manipulation" will cause the market to crash. So basically your problem with "manipulation" is its effect on prices and by extension its effect on your potential investment. And that is the part of this whole argument that bothers me. Pressers are called greedy time and again. Obviously money is a motivation for the endeavor. But anti-pressers seem to be motivated by the same greed. If their books are no longer the best, the highest graded, the most valuable then, by golly, they are going to take their ball and go home. And if they can't buy the best without some self-induced stigma attached then they want to take no part in the enjoyment of the books themselves. If that is your position then that is your choice. But it is a position that totally disregards any love for the books themselves other than their monetary value. And it is a position that I can't comprehend.

I respect you for speaking out about the problems you see in the hobby. But I have a problem with your equating those problems with greed, when it appears that your fears of losing money are the reason you no longer want to participate.

 

I would have to say that I agree with Mr Bedrock. Post of the year! Mr Bedrock

[Korvac Saga]

This guy presses my books.

 

[october]

Collecting, by its very nature, is about as greedy a pursuit as there is. Greed for the best copy, greed for the highest number on the slab, greed for the books worth the most money, greed for full runs, greed for the best art, etc. Virtually nothing about the hobby focuses on helping others, giving to others, or bettering ANYTHING other than one's own collection. It always strikes me as funny when a collector derides someone else for being "greedy", yet seemingly fails to see the rampant greed inherent in collecting itself. Not to mention the fact that the disgust aimed at pressers is generally itself motivated by the desire to keep as many unmanipulated books in the pool as possible. Why? So they can collect them. So altruistic!

 

.....I'm calling BS on this theory,...my father collected cigar bands,...'splain to me like I'm five how greed played any part in his endevour,....there are thousands of people outside of this forum who don't give a hoot about the value of their collection or the condition of their books,...they are just in it for the sheer pleasure of it,...is everyone here that tainted and jaded that they couldn't even consider this a possibility?

 

Of course there are. Outside this forum and outside this conversation. But that's not where this discussion is taking place and that's not where the outrage over pressing and greed is coming from. The guys buying 5 for $1 readers aren't the ones perpetuating this discussion and casual accumulators aren't really who I was talking about.

[joeypost]

Nice try, Bob. But, first, that isn't "my business". I'm an investor who suffers like everybody else when all the banks, companies, ratings agencies, etc. who are supposed to be helping me, their customer, fail to do their jobs or abuse their positions.

 

Second of all, all of those activities you mentioned ARE, indeed, deplorable. That's why Bernie Madoff, Bernie Ebbers, Jeff Skilling, etc. are in JAIL. That's why Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken did HARD TIME. That's why Sandy Weill got booted from Citigroup and is OUT OF A JOB. That's why all those Wall Street banks paid millions (billions?) of dollars of fines for their blatant conflicts of interest in the late 1990s and early 2000s. That's why all these bank execs keep getting dragged up to Capitol Hill to testify about their business activities leading up to the financial meltdown of 2008. They all got what they deserved in the end.

 

Anyway, it's all just classic misdirection yet again. Just because there are some bad apples in the financial world and other industries doesn't justify the lot of you steamrolling every book in your path and laying waste to the historical integrity of comics. Nobody has yet responded to my question of how can a book that has been artificially manipulated to a higher grade can be considered the equal to a book that was cherry picked off the stands and meticulously preserved for decades by its owner(s).

 

I still own hundreds of slabs, though I have sold off a good chunk of my modest collection. I still own many thousands of raw books. As some of you know, I am very active in the original art side of the hobby. And, I continue to buy loads of TPBs, hardcovers and digital comics every month and was continuing to actively buy raw books up until just a year or two ago. I attend conventions, hang out regularly with many Board members and participate almost daily on these Boards. I just no longer buy slabbed high grade - that part of the hobby is forever dead to me now.

 

It doesn't matter if this house of cards eventually comes tumbling down - the damage has been done. It was never enough to "just disclose". Manipulating books has a permanent effect on the rest of collectors and every collector that follows down the line. I wonder if the future Brulatos and Schmells of the world will feel as favorably about pressing as their predecessors. Indeed, after this crack-press-resub game eventually and inevitably implodes upon itself, why would future generations of collectors, with no seat on the current gravy train, even think that it was ever a good idea to pancake all those books that were already beautiful and well-preserved.

 

I'm sure this post will be just as derided by many as my last one. But, judging from the e-mails, PMs and conversations I have with many collectors, both here on the Boards and those who are not, I know that I am far from alone in my feelings about this matter.

I don't want to come off as deriding your position. And I think you bring up some valid points. But (you knew there would be a but) I have a big problem with one thing.

You have stated over and over that, due to "manipulation", you have no desire to purchase high grade comics. You also state that "manipulation" will cause the market to crash. So basically your problem with "manipulation" is its effect on prices and by extension its effect on your potential investment. And that is the part of this whole argument that bothers me. Pressers are called greedy time and again. Obviously money is a motivation for the endeavor. But anti-pressers seem to be motivated by the same greed. If their books are no longer the best, the highest graded, the most valuable then, by golly, they are going to take their ball and go home. And if they can't buy the best without some self-induced stigma attached then they want to take no part in the enjoyment of the books themselves. If that is your position then that is your choice. But it is a position that totally disregards any love for the books themselves other than their monetary value. And it is a position that I can't comprehend.

I respect you for speaking out about the problems you see in the hobby. But I have a problem with your equating those problems with greed, when it appears that your fears of losing money are the reason you no longer want to participate.

 

I would have to say that I agree with Mr Bedrock. Post of the year! Mr Bedrock

 

+2

[blazingbob]

Well, Gene hasn't exactly taken his ball and gone home.

 

He prefers to play in the art market. Another level playing field part of the hobby.

 

No price guide, plenty of guys willing to dump their boat anchors on you, highly trustworthy sellers, some wild and very wide bid/ask spreads (reminds me of the mortgage back security and credit default swap market) and the idea that nothing in the art world is manipulated.

 

Yup, exactly the place I want to be.

 

I'm shocked that nobody has come up with a way to trade on the downward trend of comic book prices. I'm ready to start selling those comic default swaps. Who or what can I bet against?

 

 

[Rocketeer]

Well, Gene hasn't exactly taken his ball and gone home.

 

He prefers to play in the art market. Another level playing field part of the hobby.

 

No price guide, plenty of guys willing to dump their boat anchors on you, highly trustworthy sellers and the idea that nothing in the art world is manipulated.

 

Yup, exactly the place I want to be.

 

...Well said Bob!,...BTW,...can I please get a NM copy of Justice League #1 from you for guide price?...I'll pay cash.....

[joeypost]

Well, Gene hasn't exactly taken his ball and gone home.

 

He prefers to play in the art market. Another level playing field part of the hobby.

 

No price guide, plenty of guys willing to dump their boat anchors on you, highly trustworthy sellers, some wild and very wide bid/ask spreads (reminds me of the mortgage back security and credit default swap market) and the idea that nothing in the art world is manipulated.

 

Yup, exactly the place I want to be.

 

I'm shocked that nobody has come up with a way to trade on the downward trend of comic book prices. I'm ready to start selling those comic default swaps. Who or what can I bet against?

 

 

Don't want to burst anyones bubble but I regularly press OA.

[8milemax]

Well, Gene hasn't exactly taken his ball and gone home.

 

He prefers to play in the art market. Another level playing field part of the hobby.

 

No price guide, plenty of guys willing to dump their boat anchors on you, highly trustworthy sellers, some wild and very wide bid/ask spreads (reminds me of the mortgage back security and credit default swap market) and the idea that nothing in the art world is manipulated.

 

Yup, exactly the place I want to be.

 

I'm shocked that nobody has come up with a way to trade on the downward trend of comic book prices. I'm ready to start selling those comic default swaps. Who or what can I bet against?

 

 

Don't want to burst anyones bubble but I regularly press OA.

The anti pressers are about to go nuts.

 

[Rocketeer]

Well, Gene hasn't exactly taken his ball and gone home.

 

He prefers to play in the art market. Another level playing field part of the hobby.

 

No price guide, plenty of guys willing to dump their boat anchors on you, highly trustworthy sellers, some wild and very wide bid/ask spreads (reminds me of the mortgage back security and credit default swap market) and the idea that nothing in the art world is manipulated.

 

Yup, exactly the place I want to be.

 

I'm shocked that nobody has come up with a way to trade on the downward trend of comic book prices. I'm ready to start selling those comic default swaps. Who or what can I bet against?

 

 

Don't want to burst anyones bubble but I regularly press OA.

The anti pressers are about to go nuts.

 

...and I color touch it...wouldn't you?...it's all black and white for chrisakes,...

[delekkerste]

You have stated over and over that, due to "manipulation", you have no desire to purchase high grade comics. You also state that "manipulation" will cause the market to crash. So basically your problem with "manipulation" is its effect on prices and by extension its effect on your potential investment. And that is the part of this whole argument that bothers me. Pressers are called greedy time and again. Obviously money is a motivation for the endeavor. But anti-pressers seem to be motivated by the same greed. If their books are no longer the best, the highest graded, the most valuable then, by golly, they are going to take their ball and go home. And if they can't buy the best without some self-induced stigma attached then they want to take no part in the enjoyment of the books themselves. If that is your position then that is your choice. But it is a position that totally disregards any love for the books themselves other than their monetary value. And it is a position that I can't comprehend.

 

I respect you for speaking out about the problems you see in the hobby. But I have a problem with your equating those problems with greed, when it appears that your fears of losing money are the reason you no longer want to participate.

 

Sorry to disintegrate your flimsy straw man, Richard, but that's just a flat-out misrepresentation of my views (and to anyone who actually bought this load of bull, shame on you). Your syllogism is way off-base: "If I don't want to buy comics because they have been manipulated and if I believe manipulation will cause the market to crash, then I, personally, don't want to buy manipulated comics because of what may happen to my "investment"?" That requires a huge amount of assumption to make the logic even begin to work - which it doesn't. Socrates you are not, Mr. Evans.

 

I do believe that greed will, in time, contribute to the downfall of the high grade slab market. The crack-press-resub game is a major, but not the only, component of that, yes. However, let's get one thing perfectly straight: my views on this matter have NOTHING to do with any risk of personal financial loss nor of any potential hit to my pride because pressing caused some book to be graded a 9.9 instead of my 9.8. Ask someone who actually knows me and my motivations for collecting, like Marc or Brian, and they can tell you how utterly laughable either notion is.

 

I oppose pressing because I do not believe in the practice of artificially manipulating books to achieve higher grades. I do not believe that the end result is the equal of a book that earned its grade through careful inspection and fastidious storage and conservation methods. I think that pressing is a short-cut and a cop-out. I don't begrudge anyone's right to make a buck, but not at the expense of destroying the historical integrity of these many thousands of books, the overwhelming majority of which did not require any restorative work. Any other reasons attributed to me are simply false and misleading statements intended to discredit the viewpoint of both myself (a passionate hobby participant with no financial agenda) and those who have similar feelings towards artificially manipulated books.

[delekkerste]

Well, Gene hasn't exactly taken his ball and gone home.

 

He prefers to play in the art market. Another level playing field part of the hobby.

 

No price guide, plenty of guys willing to dump their boat anchors on you, highly trustworthy sellers, some wild and very wide bid/ask spreads (reminds me of the mortgage back security and credit default swap market) and the idea that nothing in the art world is manipulated.

 

Yup, exactly the place I want to be.

 

I'm shocked that nobody has come up with a way to trade on the downward trend of comic book prices. I'm ready to start selling those comic default swaps. Who or what can I bet against?

 

 

When you figure out how to structure those comic default swaps, sign me up.

 

As for the OA market, I have been a very vocal critic of the pump and dump hucksterism there. But, in that market, it's just a matter of people trying to gouge you for every last dollar. For someone who does his homework and has enough self-restraint to say "No", it's not so bad. It's not like the sellers are manipulating the physical artwork in an irreversible manner that many collectors would find objectionable. I really don't see what that market has to do with my distaste for pressing.