How in the world did this go unnoticed???

[MCMiles]

You guys can keep preaching that negative outlook, which I really don't think some of you honestly believe. Trimming, under any circumstances, will never have the slimmest of acceptance. Yes, some would take that angle if they thought it could make them money, but the money would not be there, because if CGC came out and said ,"we can't detect it. We are not going to label it.", the whole house of cards would come crashing down. CGC would loose credibity and likely fail, and a book in a slab wouldn't be worth jack mess.

[MCMiles]

Even if it were possible to label pressed books as PRESSED people would still entertain buying them, unlike trimmed books.

 

I think this would make for an interesting test. If CGC were to add PRESSED to the label of a few of the graded books they knew to be pressed, I wonder what the outcome would be.

 

Could someone send in books that have been pressed and request that CGC add PRESSED to the label? Would they do something like that for a customer?

 

 

 

 

No CGC won't do that.

 

Sellers in the marketplace label their books "Pressed" on a regular basis.

[Davenport]

I could not disagree more Steve

 

How dare you?!?!?

 

Fast forward to today and you see peoples reaction when they sub a book only to have it come back trimmed...

 

I think you underestimate the power of groupthink + potential for profit.

 

If an influential entity such as CGC stated years ago that, within certain parameters, very slight trimming was nothing more than correcting the book so it was within the size specifications that were originally intended at the printer... sure, plenty of people would jump on that bandwagon. There'd be plenty of people ready to slice off a bit of that ugly, torn overhang -- it wasn't meant to be there in the first place.

 

Certainly not everyone... you'd have plenty of people against it as well.

 

Hey... it's all just an intellectual exercise anyway. My point was that standards evolve and shift over time. And with a little creative spin, trimming wouldn't be nearly as rejected as it is now. Rejection of trimming is not something that is built into our DNA, it is a learned social more.

 

Exhibit A is the recent thread in the grading/resto forum where a newbie asked if his book was a good candidate for "pressing and a trim." He had no clue he was proposing doing something that is reviled.

 

I'll have to dig up the exact quote, but IIRC, the early Overstreets actually recommended binding/trimming your books into a hardback for "conservation and preservation", which I assume is where all the bound copies came from. It seems more and more we're seeing those once bound-and-trimmed copies unbound and sold individually. I wonder if they kept the existing staples intact when putting these together?

 

Bound copy of Superman 1-12.

I've posted this scan before, a full page "restoration services" ad from an Overstreet.

 

E. Gerber isn't exactly some underground outfit, and being full page suggests Trimming wasn't despised or considered dark arts.

 

Plus, depending on how old you are , not all that long ago.

 

[alecholland]

Even if it were possible to label pressed books as PRESSED people would still entertain buying them, unlike trimmed books.

 

I think this would make for an interesting test. If CGC were to add PRESSED to the label of a few of the graded books they knew to be pressed, I wonder what the outcome would be.

 

Could someone send in books that have been pressed and request that CGC add PRESSED to the label? Would they do something like that for a customer?

 

 

 

 

No CGC won't do that.

 

Sellers in the marketplace label their books "Pressed" on a regular basis.

 

I know sellers in the marketplace do that, and I definitely appreciate it.

 

I'm just wondering about venues outside of this marketplace. If two copies of the same book, in the same grade, same PQ showed up on CLink (for example), but one had the designation PRESSED on the label, what would happen?

[joeypost]

Even if it were possible to label pressed books as PRESSED people would still entertain buying them, unlike trimmed books.

 

I think this would make for an interesting test. If CGC were to add PRESSED to the label of a few of the graded books they knew to be pressed, I wonder what the outcome would be.

 

Could someone send in books that have been pressed and request that CGC add PRESSED to the label? Would they do something like that for a customer?

 

 

 

 

No CGC won't do that.

 

Sellers in the marketplace label their books "Pressed" on a regular basis.

 

I know sellers in the marketplace do that, and I definitely appreciate it.

 

I'm just wondering about venues outside of this marketplace. If two copies of the same book, in the same grade, same PQ showed up on CLink (for example), but one had the designation PRESSED on the label, what would happen?

 

My guess would be very little would happen. if someone is looking for a blue label book they will buy it anyway. It might sell for less, or it might not. I have broken GPA records on some of my sales on pressed books, and i have sold for half of GPA on others. Depends upon the book or the market for that issue.

[MCMiles]

Even if it were possible to label pressed books as PRESSED people would still entertain buying them, unlike trimmed books.

 

I think this would make for an interesting test. If CGC were to add PRESSED to the label of a few of the graded books they knew to be pressed, I wonder what the outcome would be.

 

Could someone send in books that have been pressed and request that CGC add PRESSED to the label? Would they do something like that for a customer?

 

 

 

 

No CGC won't do that.

 

Sellers in the marketplace label their books "Pressed" on a regular basis.

 

I know sellers in the marketplace do that, and I definitely appreciate it.

 

I'm just wondering about venues outside of this marketplace. If two copies of the same book, in the same grade, same PQ showed up on CLink (for example), but one had the designation PRESSED on the label, what would happen?

 

The unpressed book would sell for more. As it should. I don't think many people deny that. There is a larger market for an unpressed book. It's a combined market of those that don't care, those that do care, and those that would hope it presses in to a better grade.

 

Otherwise, it's already been proven time and time again, that enough people obviously disregard pressing enough to pay full market value, even when informed the book has been pressed.

...and we're not just talking about books that never come up for sale, that includes the ones that the buyer would probably only need to wait a short period of time for another issue to come up for sale.

[skypinkblu]

I'm still not sure how any company that wants to make money grading comic books is going to survive by putting a "pressed" designation on any book that passes whatever nigh-miraculous test that can be developed.

 

I mean, even if somehow they can figure that a book has been artificially manipulated by being placed in a dry mount press and not just stuck under a set of encyclopedias, at the bottom of a large stack of books or wedged into a too tightly-packed longbox - which is a BIG FRIGGING IF - they still are going to have to deal with the same challenges CGC dealt with.

 

Which is all a red herring, anyway. CGC is the 3rd party grading company. Like it or not, but that's what we have today. A new company is not going to fix the "pressing problem." The only way people who don't want books to be pressed are going to 'win' is a two-stage plan.

 

Step one is to convince CGC that pressing detection is necessary.

 

Step two is to convince people who currently are either aware of pressing and don't care or who are unaware of pressing that they need to stop buying pressed books. Once people who press are hit in the wallet, they'll stop.

 

Good luck with that

 

CGC could detect manipulation if it had previously graded the book. This detection would be costly but very doable.

 

So you are claiming CGC can differentiate between "artificially manipulated by being placed in a dry mount press and not just stuck under a set of encyclopedias, at the bottom of a large stack of books or wedged into a too tightly-packed longbox"?

 

 

I don't think that's what Gary meant.

 

He would like CGC to keep high res scans of every book they do, then when a book comes in, say a Spidey #223, check through all the scans of that book they have ever done, see if any match, if so, then determine if it has been pressed or not.

 

Unrealistic from a for-profit company, but, as Gary said, doable.

 

He said it was doable to determine if there was manipulation. That would include: stuck under a set of encyclopedias, at the bottom of a large stack of books or wedged into a too tightly-packed longbox. So if it were one of those, it would result in a "pressed" designation?

 

And as for figuring out which method that had been used, because some would be acceptable to collectors and some wouldn't, how would CGC be able to determine the method? Check for "Encyclopedia Britanica" impression residues? Comic book psychic?

 

I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but I'm curious.

 

People I respect keep mentioning that pressing from stacking books, etc, occurs and you can't tell the difference.

 

Have any of you tried this?

 

First of all, putting books under encyclopedias or bricks, or ten ton weights, doesn't seem to be so different to me from other methods, you do these things intentionally.

 

But stacking is mentioned all the time...

 

Now I happen to be doing a project of my own, I'm rebagging and boarding most of my SA books...and they HAVE been stacked...for years..maybe longer than they should have...some at least 7 years. I have them on bookshelves.

 

 

 

The books are mostly bagged and boarded, one or two escaped me, and were not, but for the most part, the boards are there, too so you have that additional weight. The stacks are about 125 to 150 high. The books at the bottom don't look pressed. There are still spine rolls and they honestly don't look anything like the pressed books I've seen.. I'm not quite sure that you could stack books any higher without them falling over (I've tried) .

 

Before you mention long boxes, I also happen to have a long box, that has been on it's end (in-between two of my book cases) for maybe 4 years? Same thing...

 

So...Exactly how many books do you think get accidently pressed this way? It would seem to me, and I'm no scientist...that you'd need a weight. That there would have had to be a lot of time....would there have been 2 collections? 100?

 

I'm just a little confused...:shrug:

 

I would imagine you have these books in an airconditioned room or a place that for the most part is climate controlled.

 

I have pulled books out of a hot, humid Florida warehouse where the shape of the bag was imprinted into the book behind it. I have also had some that were so tightly packed that the pages stuck together and I had to pry the cover off the splash page. Stacking alone is not enough in most cases. It seemed to preserve books in the case of the Church and Pac Coast books though.

 

 

Stacks are also not limited to long box heights, I've seen much higher ones. One collection I can recall consisted of stacks of books about 12" high, then a piece of masonite which made a flatter surface for the next 12', and this repeated 4-5 time. That is quite a bit more weight and the 1/4" masonite distributed the pressure more evenly. There were books that suffered stacking indents, and those that looked like they may have had some sort of minor spine roll, but I wouldn't have called theat method an intent to flatten the books, it was a storage issue.

 

I'm not denying that it's happened...but I was wondering how frequently it happens...

 

and to me, putting bricks, or anything else heavy is deliberate.

 

Mine still have spine rolls, now these were not 9.4's upgraded to 9.6's, these are mostly VGs...and since I try not to breathe near 9.4's, it's not really an issue for me.

 

I was just curious as to whether the tide has turned...if MORE books are now pressed artifically? So many more, that this problem with the poor innocent sucker being labeled is really a moot point? :Shrug:

[pickycollector]

I know sellers in the marketplace do that, and I definitely appreciate it.

 

I'm just wondering about venues outside of this marketplace. If two copies of the same book, in the same grade, same PQ and similar defects showed up on CLink (for example) at the same time, but one had the designation PRESSED on the label, what would happen?

 

All other things being equal, and as I already said, I strongly believe that an unpressed 9.2 (for example) book should worth more than a pressed 9.2 copy.

 

For two good reasons:

1) anti-pressers will want to buy it to be part of their untouched collection and

2) pro-pressers will also want to buy it in order to "improve" it.

 

In both cases there is stronger demand for such a book and therefore it should worth more. The pressed 9.2 would sell for less because most anti-pressers will not want to purchase it and many pro-pressers will not see any more potential in the "crack-press-resub" for that one.

 

That is one of the reasons why old labels (majority are unpressed) often sell for higher price.

[kimik]

Even if it were possible to label pressed books as PRESSED people would still entertain buying them, unlike trimmed books.

 

I think this would make for an interesting test. If CGC were to add PRESSED to the label of a few of the graded books they knew to be pressed, I wonder what the outcome would be.

 

Could someone send in books that have been pressed and request that CGC add PRESSED to the label? Would they do something like that for a customer?

 

 

 

 

No CGC won't do that.

 

Sellers in the marketplace label their books "Pressed" on a regular basis.

 

I know sellers in the marketplace do that, and I definitely appreciate it.

 

I'm just wondering about venues outside of this marketplace. If two copies of the same book, in the same grade, same PQ showed up on CLink (for example), but one had the designation PRESSED on the label, what would happen?

 

The unpressed book would sell for more. As it should. I don't think many people deny that. There is a larger market for an unpressed book. It's a combined market of those that don't care, those that do care, and those that would hope it presses in to a better grade.

 

Otherwise, it's already been proven time and time again, that enough people obviously disregard pressing enough to pay full market value, even when informed the book has been pressed.

...and we're not just talking about books that never come up for sale, that includes the ones that they buyer would probably only need to wait a short period of time for another issue to come up for sale.

 

And, as we have seen recently with the Mound City collection, there is a good probability that the unpressed book would be bought by a dealer or collector/dealer to press, resub for an upgrade, and sell for an even higher price.

[Sal]

You guys can keep preaching that negative outlook, which I really don't think some of you honestly believe. Trimming, under any circumstances, will never have the slimmest of acceptance. Yes, some would take that angle if they thought it could make them money, but the money would not be there, because if CGC came out and said ,"we can't detect it. We are not going to label it.", the whole house of cards would come crashing down. CGC would loose credibity and likely fail, and a book in a slab wouldn't be worth jack mess.

 

arguing a hypothetical is a pretty good way to waste everyone's time, so we will have to just agree to disagree.

 

provided we're arguing the same hypothetical, which doesn't appear to be the case, likely on account of my poor job of explaining my version.

 

either way, it's not going to happen, so no sense spending any time on it beyond that which we've already done

[alecholland]

Even if it were possible to label pressed books as PRESSED people would still entertain buying them, unlike trimmed books.

 

I think this would make for an interesting test. If CGC were to add PRESSED to the label of a few of the graded books they knew to be pressed, I wonder what the outcome would be.

 

Could someone send in books that have been pressed and request that CGC add PRESSED to the label? Would they do something like that for a customer?

 

 

 

 

No CGC won't do that.

 

Sellers in the marketplace label their books "Pressed" on a regular basis.

 

I know sellers in the marketplace do that, and I definitely appreciate it.

 

I'm just wondering about venues outside of this marketplace. If two copies of the same book, in the same grade, same PQ showed up on CLink (for example), but one had the designation PRESSED on the label, what would happen?

 

My guess would be very little would happen. if someone is looking for a blue label book they will buy it anyway. It might sell for less, or it might not. I have broken GPA records on some of my sales on pressed books, and i have sold for half of GPA on others. Depends upon the book or the market for that issue.

 

With the pressed books that broke GPA records, do you believe you would have had the same result if the book had PRESSED designated on it? Even if it were in a blue label.

 

Personally, I don't think it would. But of course, that's just my opinion. That's why I thought that testing out the theory might be interesting. It could be a way to measure how the marketplace (outside of these boards) feels about pressing.

 

[VintageComics]

And, as we have seen recently with the Mound City collection, there is a good probability that the unpressed book would be bought by a dealer or collector/dealer to press, resub for an upgrade, and sell for an even higher price.

 

I think at this point if it is known that a book is not pressed, it's almost a given that it will sell for more than an pressed book.

 

You have two motivated bidder types:

 

1) the bidder who wants to own an unpressed book

2) the bidder who wants an increase in grade from the unpressed book.

 

At this point is it fair to say that if a collector wants to own a book that is unpressed that they will have to be willing to pay a premium to own it?

 

R.

 

 

[pickycollector]

And, as we have seen recently with the Mound City collection, there is a good probability that the unpressed book would be bought by a dealer or collector/dealer to press, resub for an upgrade, and sell for an even higher price.

 

And we could go even further with the assumption by saying that an "unpressed book but improvable" would sell more than an "unpressed book but unimprovable" which would sell more than a pressed book.

[Mr. Zipper]

You have two motivated bidder types:

 

1) the bidder who wants to own an unpressed book

2) the bidder who wants an increase in grade from the unpressed book.

 

At this point is it fair to say that if a collector wants to own a book that is unpressed book that they will have to be willing to pay a premium to own it?

 

R.

 

 

Will the newest scam be to press a book to maximize grade, but then say it is original owner unpressed to cash in on the "I don't like pressing" or "potentialize" premium?

 

That said, I'm sure it's been done already.

[VintageComics]

With the pressed books that broke GPA records, do you believe you would have had the same result if the book had PRESSED designated on it? Even if it were in a blue label.

 

I think it's fair to say that many of the collectors who are bidding on highest graded books really don't care if it's pressed or not.

 

That is the general consensus of many (not all) of high end collectors who have vocalized their opinions on the matter on here and at cons that I have spoken to or whose posts I have read.

 

 

 

 

[herc2000]

Has there ever been a poll, for pressing and against? I'm guessing there has, if so, what was the percentages 50/50?

[iggy]

And, as we have seen recently with the Mound City collection, there is a good probability that the unpressed book would be bought by a dealer or collector/dealer to press, resub for an upgrade, and sell for an even higher price.

 

I think at this point if it is known that a book is not pressed, it's almost a given that it will sell for more than an unpressed book.

 

You have two motivated bidder types:

 

1) the bidder who wants to own an unpressed book

2) the bidder who wants an increase in grade from the unpressed book.

 

At this point is it fair to say that if a collector wants to own a book that is unpressed that they will have to be willing to pay a premium to own it?

 

R.

 

 

(thumbs u We know what you mean!

 

 

[VintageComics]

You have two motivated bidder types:

 

1) the bidder who wants to own an unpressed book

2) the bidder who wants an increase in grade from the unpressed book.

 

At this point is it fair to say that if a collector wants to own a book that is unpressed book that they will have to be willing to pay a premium to own it?

 

R.

 

 

Will the newest scam be to press a book to maximize grade, but then say it is original owner unpressed to cash in on the "I don't like pressing" or "potentialize" premium?

 

That said, I'm sure it's been done already.

 

I already mentioned this a long time ago.

 

 

[VintageComics]

(thumbs u We know what you mean!

 

 

Sorry, corrected it. Thanks!

[Mr. Zipper]

Has there ever been a poll, for pressing and against? I'm guessing there has, if so, what was the percentages 50/50?

 

There was a poll here regarding whether it is restoration or not. If I recall correctly, at one point, most respondents thought it was some form of restoration (albeit very minor.)