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How in the world did this go unnoticed???

1,945 posts in this topic

Most get tired of the ongoing debate which will never be fully resolved.

 

Brent, as far as I am concerned, this is not about 'to press or not to press'.

 

I simply don't think you personally can wear the two hats.

 

I'll repeat, what you're doing is neither dishonest, nor unethical. Would I prefer it if you weren't doing it? Of course I would, but I've known your stance on pressing for many a year.

 

However, to my mind, this step you've take simply exacerbates the problem you're attempting to address.

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I understand the problem that you have Nick, but the bottom line is that what I believe Brent is limited to is actively disclosing what he knows. I don't think there's any effort being made to solve what you've identified as the long term, global "problem". As others have stated, he can't control what others do, and frankly, I don't perceive that he's concerned about the same things you are.

 

This is a business (as it is for you) and the model that is currently being employed is to not leave any money on the table. For Brent, I think he feels he's doing the best he can to comport with his ethical standards he has long stood by -- your concerns, however, do not fit in with the "problems" that Brent sees.

 

This is why I don't think the whole thing is that big a deal or a surprise. At some point, if you have pressed all along, this is a natural progression. I was unsurprised when this was announced, and frankly, didn't think it was a big deal for Brent to do this.

 

The reality has come to this: If you don't want someone else to take advantage of you, you need to be pressing books. Whether you agree or disagree, if you don't press major books, many times you are facilitating the wealth of a select few who will target you and purchase books knowing you don't press.

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The reality has come to this: If you don't want someone else to take advantage of you, you need to be pressing books. Whether you agree or disagree, if you don't press major books, many times you are facilitating the wealth of a select few who will target you and purchase books knowing you don't press.

 

That's really what it all boils down to. I press now for that exact reason. Set aside all of the histrionics, soapbox preaching and ethical debates...when someone buys a 9.4 from me for $800, presses it into a 9.6 and flips it for $3000, things need to change in my selling model. Period. Nobody likes playing the sucker or the mark, and I'd rather have that profit riding on my hip. I don't know too many people in this hobby, collectors or dealers, who are in this to make other people money.

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The reality has come to this: If you don't want someone else to take advantage of you, you need to be pressing books. Whether you agree or disagree, if you don't press major books, many times you are facilitating the wealth of a select few who will target you and purchase books knowing you don't press.

 

That's really what it all boils down to. I press now for that exact reason. Set aside all of the histrionics, soapbox preaching and ethical debates...when someone buys a 9.4 from me for $800, presses it into a 9.6 and flips it for $3000, things need to change in my selling model. Period. Nobody likes playing the sucker or the mark, and I'd rather have that profit riding on my hip. I don't know too many people in this hobby, collectors or dealers, who are in this to make other people money.

 

:hi:

 

Looks like I'll never be a playa. :cry:

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Pressing books was never the issue. Disclosure is. That is the NOD's official stance on this issue and it always has been. There is no conflict of interest in this matter.

 

While I have no issues with what you are doing as far as pressing goes Brent, this statement is then not true regarding the way I was treated while a NOD member.

 

If this statement were true I possibly could still be an active NOD member who pro-actively discloses and presses. So I would have to say that NOD while making a mountain out of a mole hill for me has suddenly releaxed the rules for you

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The reality has come to this: If you don't want someone else to take advantage of you, you need to be pressing books. Whether you agree or disagree, if you don't press major books, many times you are facilitating the wealth of a select few who will target you and purchase books knowing you don't press.

 

That's really what it all boils down to. I press now for that exact reason. Set aside all of the histrionics, soapbox preaching and ethical debates...when someone buys a 9.4 from me for $800, presses it into a 9.6 and flips it for $3000, things need to change in my selling model. Period. Nobody likes playing the sucker or the mark, and I'd rather have that profit riding on my hip. I don't know too many people in this hobby, collectors or dealers, who are in this to make other people money.

 

:hi:

 

Looks like I'll never be a playa. :cry:

 

I couldn't care less about being a "playa". My self image is completely divorced from this hobby. What I did care about was rent, food and tuition...all of which were funded in part by selling and I didn't appreciate the opportunity cost of that particular transaction. I didn't begrudge the buyer, but I wasn't going to keep on missing the boat either.

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The reality has come to this: If you don't want someone else to take advantage of you, you need to be pressing books. Whether you agree or disagree, if you don't press major books, many times you are facilitating the wealth of a select few who will target you and purchase books knowing you don't press.

 

That's really what it all boils down to. I press now for that exact reason. Set aside all of the histrionics, soapbox preaching and ethical debates...when someone buys a 9.4 from me for $800, presses it into a 9.6 and flips it for $3000, things need to change in my selling model. Period. Nobody likes playing the sucker or the mark, and I'd rather have that profit riding on my hip. I don't know too many people in this hobby, collectors or dealers, who are in this to make other people money.

 

:hi:

 

Looks like I'll never be a playa. :cry:

 

It's not really about being a player, but take this example, if I have an Avengers 4 9.0, that I know could be made into a 9.4 -- should I sell that book to let's say, Storms, who probably isn't going to press it (or maybe he will) but will offer the book to Lauterbach who absolutely will press it. Why should I let Lauterbach make that $20k? I don't have to be a player, but I'm not here to enrich others either.

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Pressing books was never the issue. Disclosure is. That is the NOD's official stance on this issue and it always has been. There is no conflict of interest in this matter.

 

While I have no issues with what you are doing as far as pressing goes Brent, this statement is then not true regarding the way I was treated while a NOD member.

 

If this statement were true I possibly could still be an active NOD member who pro-actively discloses and presses. So I would have to say that NOD while making a mountain out of a mole hill for me has suddenly releaxed the rules for you

 

All I can say about that I was not part of the NOD leadership when those decisions were being made. I disagreed with some of the decisions that were made then and told the leadership so. And I still disagree with those decisions now.

 

I helped form the NOD and understand implicitly what the NOD was designed to do. Bring awareness to the work being done to books and encourage disclosure by creating a organization with members that would do so. At the time virtually NO ONE disclosed pressing, resto removal etc. The NOD has been instrumental in bringing these issues to light.

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Pressing books was never the issue. Disclosure is. That is the NOD's official stance on this issue and it always has been. There is no conflict of interest in this matter.

 

While I have no issues with what you are doing as far as pressing goes Brent, this statement is then not true regarding the way I was treated while a NOD member.

 

If this statement were true I possibly could still be an active NOD member who pro-actively discloses and presses. So I would have to say that NOD while making a mountain out of a mole hill for me has suddenly releaxed the rules for you

 

All I can say about that I was not part of the NOD leadership when those decisions were being made. I disagreed with some of the decisions that were made then and told the leadership so. And I still disagree with those decisions now.

 

I helped form the NOD and understand implicitly what the NOD was designed to do. Bring awareness to the work being done to books and encourage disclosure by creating a organization with members that would do so. At the time virtually NO ONE disclosed pressing, resto removal etc. The NOD has been instrumental in bringing these issues to light.

 

I don't think NOD was instrumental at all, maybe some people on the boards who eventually joined NOD, but certainly NOD itself. NOD has turned out to be one complete and total failure and it's accomplished nothing that has extended beyond the parameters (for anything significant) of the boards basically. I'm sure you've captured a few members here and there that aren't on the boards, but it's been a total failure in getting its message out. It's been mired in politics, over complications of rules and regulations, and seeming conflicts of interest. Sometimes the personalities of the leaders of NOD have over ridden NOD itself.

 

NOD is basically useless. It should be dismantled and a new organization formed with something streamlined that truly promotes education in the hobby. Since NOD really has no presence at cons, no real hobby recognition (other than mostly as a joke, except to the people who are actually members) and has accomplished little (and I'd like to hear the list of actual "accomplishments" that extend to anyone beyond this microcosm here) -- I think it needs to be scrapped.

 

The model was flawed from the beginning and it never improved. I think there are some good ideas in its fundamentals and there are some good people who are members of the organization, but NOD is total and utter failure and I defy anyone to prove otherwise.

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The reality has come to this: If you don't want someone else to take advantage of you, you need to be pressing books. Whether you agree or disagree, if you don't press major books, many times you are facilitating the wealth of a select few who will target you and purchase books knowing you don't press.

 

That's really what it all boils down to. I press now for that exact reason. Set aside all of the histrionics, soapbox preaching and ethical debates...when someone buys a 9.4 from me for $800, presses it into a 9.6 and flips it for $3000, things need to change in my selling model. Period. Nobody likes playing the sucker or the mark, and I'd rather have that profit riding on my hip. I don't know too many people in this hobby, collectors or dealers, who are in this to make other people money.

 

:hi:

 

Looks like I'll never be a playa. :cry:

 

It's not really about being a player, but take this example, if I have an Avengers 4 9.0, that I know could be made into a 9.4 -- should I sell that book to let's say, Storms, who probably isn't going to press it (or maybe he will) but will offer the book to Lauterbach who absolutely will press it. Why should I let Lauterbach make that $20k? I don't have to be a player, but I'm not here to enrich others either.

 

That's your call, Brian.

 

As for me...

 

I've just sold a number of my slabbed Avengers...about 16 of them in the 9.0 and 9.2 grades. I sold them to boarders, specifically two boarders who I know want them solely for thier own collections. They were sold for less than I could have got elsewhere and they were sold for waaaaaaaaaaaaaay less than they could have been if potentialised.

 

And I've been unemployed for 12 months and need every cent going into my new venture.

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The reality has come to this: If you don't want someone else to take advantage of you, you need to be pressing books. Whether you agree or disagree, if you don't press major books, many times you are facilitating the wealth of a select few who will target you and purchase books knowing you don't press.

 

That's really what it all boils down to. I press now for that exact reason. Set aside all of the histrionics, soapbox preaching and ethical debates...when someone buys a 9.4 from me for $800, presses it into a 9.6 and flips it for $3000, things need to change in my selling model. Period. Nobody likes playing the sucker or the mark, and I'd rather have that profit riding on my hip. I don't know too many people in this hobby, collectors or dealers, who are in this to make other people money.

 

:hi:

 

Looks like I'll never be a playa. :cry:

 

It's not really about being a player, but take this example, if I have an Avengers 4 9.0, that I know could be made into a 9.4 -- should I sell that book to let's say, Storms, who probably isn't going to press it (or maybe he will) but will offer the book to Lauterbach who absolutely will press it. Why should I let Lauterbach make that $20k? I don't have to be a player, but I'm not here to enrich others either.

 

That's your call, Brian.

 

As for me...

 

I've just sold a number of my slabbed Avengers...about 16 of them in the 9.0 and 9.2 grades. I sold them to boarders, specifically two boarders who I know want them solely for thier own collections. They were sold for less than I could have got elsewhere and they were sold for waaaaaaaaaaaaaay less than they could have been if potentialised.

 

And I've been unemployed for 12 months and need every cent going into my new venture.

 

I understand that... but I guess my issue is, that's a very controlled way to sell, and sometimes, there isn't a market for just going down that route. I understand what you're saying, but this is a factor you can't dismiss as a legitimate reason as to why people feel inclined to press these days.

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stupid azz BS threads like these that go off topic and other posters use their own agenda to rehash a dead horse, is a reason for me to either leave the hobby, or the forums. pathetic. :screwy: if i was arch, i'd start handing out strikes. we heard you the first hundred times already. :slapfight:

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The model was flawed from the beginning and it never improved. I think there are some good ideas in its fundamentals and there are some good people who are members of the organization, but NOD is total and utter failure and I defy anyone to prove otherwise.

 

I disagree.

 

What other organization has actively promoted the notion of disclosure? Answer: none.

 

Prior to NOD's formation, "disclosure" was not even part of the lexicon. Now, even those that are proponents of pressing typically agree that disclosure is the ethical thing to do. Perhaps this would have happened eventually without NOD, but the group certainly played a key role in exposing the issue and driving the message of disclosure.

 

Yes, the group has had many missteps and the model is flawed for long term viability, but to state it was an utter and total failure is insulting and ridiculous.

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stupid azz BS threads like these that go off topic and other posters use their own agenda to rehash a dead horse, is a reason for me to either leave the hobby, or the forums. pathetic. :screwy: if i was arch, i'd start handing out strikes. we heard you the first hundred times already. :slapfight:

 

And it's impacting your life how, exactly? (shrug)

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It should be dismantled and a new organization formed with something streamlined that truly promotes education in the hobby. Since NOD really has no presence at cons, no real hobby recognition (other than mostly as a joke, except to the people who are actually members) and has accomplished little (and I'd like to hear the list of actual "accomplishments" that extend to anyone beyond this microcosm here) -- I think it needs to be scrapped.

 

I think you are a good guy, Brian and a force for good in the hobby. Yet, I'm surprised you'd really disparage something that, while far from perfect, people were trying to do the right thing.

 

How did the collecting club you were going to establish come along? Not as easy as it seems is it?

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I don't think Brent is trying to fight having more books pressed, just that he agrees it should be disclosed. He's been pressing for years before this -- so I'm not sure why the fact that he's offering it as an actual service to the public is really that big of a deal.

 

It isn't that big a deal in itself Brian.

 

Honestly, have we become soo serious that we cannot even bring up the dichotomy of this situation? It has nothing to do with Brent personally or profesionally, he is not doing anything wrong. I never expected him (or anyone) to be their clients keeper. It is more just odd(to some of us at least) that the front man for NOD is now offering pressing as a service. I mean c'mon, 2 years ago this would have been epic, bizarroworld stuff.

 

I understand that NOD is trying to change, and that pressing is no longer the focal point. But for years it was because pressing was pretty much the sole thing that required full disclosure due to it being virtually undectable. So until the rest of the world catches up with NOD's new direction I would like to think it ok if people offer up their opinions about it being a potential conflict of interest that Brent, the current front man for NOD is now offering pressing as a service.

 

Not passing judgement, just saying it's odd if not downright funny.

 

 

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It's enough to conform to the current NOD guidelines for members who provide this service. Should Susan Ciccone quit the NOD since I believe it's been stated she now offers intact pressing by itself? Members can't provide this service without being in an ethical dilemma? Going farther, should she quit providing restoration services if she's a member? By your logic, she's enabling people to possibly sell without disclosure later.

 

I'm generally interested in your and JJ's answers to these questions.

 

C'mon Mike, I think you are taking your example way past extreme. Any book Susan restores can be easily detected. If somebody tries to pass it off as unrestored it would be a very isolated incident.

 

As I said earlier, I never expected Brent to be his clients keeper. But at least allow me the right to find that service at odds with his position with NOD, not that he is in the NOD, but the fact he is in a leadership position. I think it worthy of discussion what message it is sending to your members, or the public for that matter.

 

Nick is different, he a dealer working on his own, not a dealer who also heads up a disclosure advocacy group. But we already went over this last night, I guess we will just have to disagree.

 

And did I read you right, Susan offers pressing now? Interesting.

 

 

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And did I read you right, Susan offers pressing now? Interesting.

 

According to Steve B. I have no independent confirmation.

 

I just think it's amusing that all the people who want to say what a disappointment NOD is and how they should govern their membership/leadership are all people who've never been members. Personally, I don't think someone's person_without_enough_empathying merits much response when they've never tried to help or join up.

 

I take joeypost's or nearmint's critiques of the NOD far more seriously than all those people in their glass houses.

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And did I read you right, Susan offers pressing now? Interesting.

 

According to Steve B. I have no independent confirmation.

 

I just think it's amusing that all the people who want to say what a disappointment NOD is and how they should govern their membership/leadership are all people who've never been members. Personally, I don't think someone's person_without_enough_empathying merits much response when they've never tried to help or join up.

 

I take joeypost's or nearmint's critiques of the NOD far more seriously than all those people in their glass houses.

 

Well, at least you are amused. :P

 

 

 

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