How in the world did this go unnoticed???

[Paratrooper]

For you hippies out there

[KingOfRulers]

 

That was not bad.

[Dale Roberts]

No one could tell the difference between a 9.2/9.4 or a 9.4/9.6?

 

Wow, here's my new suggestion for NOD.

 

If you REALLY want to help the hobby.

 

Start grading classes. Charge for the training courses. Make the organization money. Run them at conventions. Imagine the impact your organization could have on the hobby if people learned how to grade. Imagine how the hobby could change just if customers and dealers started grading consistently. Establish certified dealers across the country that can do one on one training if people want that.

 

Eventually maybe somebody out there will know how to grade because obviously a well known Overstreet advisor can't tell the difference between a 9.2/9.4 or a 9.4/9.6.

 

Grading is subjective is a COP-OUT for those who are afraid to admit they don't know how to grade or are afraid to admit that the grading guide contradicts itself.

 

 

 

 

 

Then it is a cop out that CGC prints on the back of every CGC case. And being able to grade is now equated with being able to tell the grade that CGC would put on a book. CGC has multiple grades for each book, and even though the graders know exactly what standards CGC uses, they don't always agree.

 

I disagree that grading is not subjective. How can it possibly be otherwise? We are human(well at least I am) and not perfect. How you grade that day might be slightly less harsh or more harsh depending upon the day and the things that happened that day. Things such as how much rest you got the night before, how the lighting is where you are grading, how quickly or thoroughly you are grading, even your mood can affect the grade you place on a book. In Borrock's case, maybe how much you partied the night before .

 

One thing that can great affect my grading is the quality of books that preceded the book I am currently grading. This is a constant battle on my part. If you are looking at a group of books that are 9.6/9.8, then a 9.0 looks terrible. If you are looking at a group of books that are mostly comprised of 8.0s, then a 9.0 looks pretty good. Also, books with great color strike and gloss tend to have better eye appeal than technical grade.

 

Something I personally have begun to do within the last year (especially on post 1965 books, or non key books) is to grade the book, and then price the book 10 - 20% lower to accomodate any discrepancy on my end.

 

 

[blazingbob]

Why are you in NOD in the first place?

 

Wasn't it supposed to help the hobby?

 

Educate, make it better?

 

Doing the things you state will change the hobby for the better when more raw books are bought and sold than graded ones? I see more complaining about raw grading than CGC grading. Ebay's raw grading and prices reflects a bigger mess in this hobby than the pressing game as far as I'm concerned. I do a lot of little shows, frankly the grading leaves a lot to be desired. Do you think that if maybe some of the sellers learned how to grade that consistency in the hobby would improve. Grading teachers could make some money, grading guides might get written better. Wouldn't it be better if the hobby had grading standards that everyone understood and followed?

 

CGC is not going to make this hobby better. And frankly I don't see the Overstreet advisors doing anything to improve it either. I don't see anybody stepping up to do anything but complain. Yourself included. You joined a group that was supposed to enact change. How about doing something instead of waiting for somebody else to do it for you.

 

As far as your grading results I'll have to believe you. But as far as I know the CGC grading standards first utilized are nothing like the ones that have been in use over the last couple of years. Except for recent events I thought certain ages of grading bordered on ballistic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Moondog]

No one could tell the difference between a 9.2/9.4 or a 9.4/9.6?

 

Wow, here's my new suggestion for NOD.

 

If you REALLY want to help the hobby.

 

Start grading classes. Charge for the training courses. Make the organization money. Run them at conventions. Imagine the impact your organization could have on the hobby if people learned how to grade. Imagine how the hobby could change just if customers and dealers started grading consistently. Establish certified dealers across the country that can do one on one training if people want that.

 

Eventually maybe somebody out there will know how to grade because obviously a well known Overstreet advisor can't tell the difference between a 9.2/9.4 or a 9.4/9.6.

 

Grading is subjective is a COP-OUT for those who are afraid to admit they don't know how to grade or are afraid to admit that the grading guide contradicts itself.

 

 

 

 

 

Then it is a cop out that CGC prints on the back of every CGC case. And being able to grade is now equated with being able to tell the grade that CGC would put on a book. CGC has multiple grades for each book, and even though the graders know exactly what standards CGC uses, they don't always agree.

 

I disagree that grading is not subjective. How can it possibly be otherwise? We are human(well at least I am) and not perfect. How you grade that day might be slightly less harsh or more harsh depending upon the day and the things that happened that day. Things such as how much rest you got the night before, how the lighting is where you are grading, how quickly or thoroughly you are grading, even your mood can affect the grade you place on a book. In Borrock's case, maybe how much you partied the night before .

 

One thing that can great affect my grading is the quality of books that preceded the book I am currently grading. This is a constant battle on my part. If you are looking at a group of books that are 9.6/9.8, then a 9.0 looks terrible. If you are looking at a group of books that are mostly comprised of 8.0s, then a 9.0 looks pretty good. Also, books with great color strike and gloss tend to have better eye appeal than technical grade.

 

Something I personally have begun to do within the last year (especially on post 1965 books, or non key books) is to grade the book, and then price the book 10 - 20% lower to accomodate any discrepancy on my end.

 

I too suffer from this, Dale. Solid VFs and VF/NMs look downright ratty next to those 9.4s and 9.6s

[sborock]

Gary-

 

Just wondering.......

 

If I brought you 50 correctly pressed books (say, that it would be a jump from 9.4 to 9.6 or 9.0 to 9.2) and 50 non-pressed books, can you tell the difference?

 

I can't.

 

CGC would go out of business with spending they $$$ needed to detect it.

 

Maybe the people who don't like pressing, can take up a collection of say.....$500,000 and give it to CGC, so they don't go out of business when they do what you want.

 

I hope you know I was tounge in cheek on that last part

 

 

[Paratrooper]

FD I know you'll like this one

[VintageComics]

Gary I have lots of respect for you but wanted to share a few thoughts:

 

My indignation with CPR stems from the fact that it couldn't exist if CGC would accept responsibility for their role in the practice and change their procedures. If a book receives a certain grade, and subsequently the book is manipulated and resubmitted it should be noted on the label that this book has been manipulated (I don't care what color label it gets). If it means adding cost to the process (the detection of manipulation, high-res scans, data base monitoring, added personnel etc.) then they should do it.

 

The problem with what you are proposing is consistency. You can not detect MOST pressed books and the room for error would be enormous. That's not the case with any other form of work done to a book. Would you want a company performing a service where likely more than 1/2 the judgement calls would or could be incorrect?

 

I agree on more consistent grading. Ever since F_T has told me how his grading is consistent, I've been unable to find a reason as to why CGC's isn't. Maybe F_T is just one of those rare people who excel at something, or maybe he has a system that works really well.

 

Going forward, this is going to be at the heart of how CGC's rep is maintained IMO. They are great people (I know almost all of them personally and consider most of them friends) but as we all agree, we are all flawed. Somehow a better system will need to be built for better quality control. These detailed discussions are putting the focus on "buying the book and not the label" to such a great degree that consistency is being pushed to the forefront. Collectors are becoming better graders because of these discussions.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how CGC adapts as collectors become better educated.

 

But because this practice would probably result in lower profits, they will hide behind their standard defenses of "pressing is not detectable, we don't know if a book has been graded before unless it has it's resubbed with its label, etc.)." This conflict of interest - providing a service that claims to certify what a book is, yet not to the degree that collectors demand - is the heart of the matter.

 

There is no conflict of interest. They set the parameters for their company and are sticking by them.

 

Have you had any progress with your lab work in attempting to detect pressed books?

 

And the FF 112 matter was so egregious that I had to say something. Sure the guy sold the book for $3,000, but someone profited to the tune of $20,000. That just ain't right.

 

There really is no line in the sand that you can draw here and say this is right and that isn't.

 

Everyone was treated fairly every step of the way. It's just an emotional argument, not a logical one.

 

 

[FlyingDonut]

Back at you. This is *spooning* awesome. I'd crawl over glass to see Zero 7 with Sia.

 

[Moondog]

Why are you in NOD in the first place?

 

Wasn't it supposed to help the hobby?

 

Educate, make it better?

 

Doing the things you state will change the hobby for the better when more raw books are bought and sold than graded ones? I see more complaining about raw grading than CGC grading. Ebay's raw grading and prices reflects a bigger mess in this hobby than the pressing game as far as I'm concerned. I do a lot of little shows, frankly the grading leaves a lot to be desired. Do you think that if maybe some of the sellers learned how to grade that consistency in the hobby would improve. Grading teachers could make some money, grading guides might get written better. Wouldn't it be better if the hobby had grading standards that everyone understood and followed?

 

CGC is not going to make this hobby better. And frankly I don't see the Overstreet advisors doing anything to improve it either. I don't see anybody stepping up to do anything but complain. Yourself included. You joined a group that was supposed to enact change. How about doing something instead of waiting for somebody else to do it for you.

 

As far as your grading results I'll have to believe you. But as far as I know the CGC grading standards first utilized are nothing like the ones that have been in use over the last couple of years. Except for recent events I thought certain ages of grading bordered on ballistic.

 

Even though the vast majority of books sold are raw, it's the CGC-graded books that bring the real dollars. Look at Mound City, you tell me what those books would have brought had they been raw - 30%? 50%?

 

Educating collectors is an admirable idea, Bob. But the bottom line is CGC's influence trumps the little guy's VG.

[Dale Roberts]

Why are you in NOD in the first place?

 

Wasn't it supposed to help the hobby?

 

Educate, make it better?

 

Doing the things you state will change the hobby for the better when more raw books are bought and sold than graded ones? I see more complaining about raw grading than CGC grading. Ebay's raw grading and prices reflects a bigger mess in this hobby than the pressing game as far as I'm concerned. I do a lot of little shows, frankly the grading leaves a lot to be desired. Do you think that if maybe some of the sellers learned how to grade that consistency in the hobby would improve. Grading teachers could make some money, grading guides might get written better. Wouldn't it be better if the hobby had grading standards that everyone understood and followed?

 

CGC is not going to make this hobby better. And frankly I don't see the Overstreet advisors doing anything to improve it either. I don't see anybody stepping up to do anything but complain. Yourself included. You joined a group that was supposed to enact change. How about doing something instead of waiting for somebody else to do it for you.

 

As far as your grading results I'll have to believe you. But as far as I know the CGC grading standards first utilized are nothing like the ones that have been in use over the last couple of years. Except for recent events I thought certain ages of grading bordered on ballistic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree 100% that education on grading would help this hobby.

 

Actually, there is a grading class out there right now. It is called pro-screen by Classics Inc. It costs very little compared to the potential benefits. Matt is very good at predicting CGC grades, probably as good as just about anyone that I know. I think I probably hit somewhere around 75 - 80% of my submissions, and I would think Matt is probably closer to 90%.

 

Actually, I would love for CGC to have classes about grading, but I don't think that would ever happen.

[Moondog]

Gary-

 

Just wondering.......

 

If I brought you 50 correctly pressed books (say, that it would be a jump from 9.4 to 9.6 or 9.0 to 9.2) and 50 non-pressed books, can you tell the difference?

 

I can't.

 

CGC would go out of business with spending they $$$ needed to detect it.

 

Maybe the people who don't like pressing, can take up a collection of say.....$500,000 and give it to CGC, so they don't go out of business when they do what you want.

 

I hope you know I was tounge in cheek on that last part

 

 

I'm with you on the cost, Steve, that's why I mentioned CPR books specifically - not raw pressed books. Once CGC gives a book grade, they have the ability to identify that book if it were to show up again in a raw state. It would be more costly to do this, but it's too important not to.

 

 

[Paratrooper]

Back at you. This is *spooning* awesome. I'd crawl over glass to see Zero 7 with Sia.

 

 

That was beautiful, check this one out

[sborock]

Gary-

 

Just wondering.......

 

If I brought you 50 correctly pressed books (say, that it would be a jump from 9.4 to 9.6 or 9.0 to 9.2) and 50 non-pressed books, can you tell the difference?

 

I can't.

 

CGC would go out of business with spending they $$$ needed to detect it.

 

Maybe the people who don't like pressing, can take up a collection of say.....$500,000 and give it to CGC, so they don't go out of business when they do what you want.

 

I hope you know I was tounge in cheek on that last part

 

 

I'm with you on the cost, Steve, that's why I mentioned CPR books specifically - not raw pressed books. Once CGC gives a book grade, they have the ability to identify that book if it were to show up again in a raw state. It would be more costly to do this, but it's too important not to.

 

 

No, it would be [font:Arial Black]too[/font] costly to do so. There in lies the rub.

[taro90]

 

Classic Oi!!!!

[Dale Roberts]

Gary-

 

Just wondering.......

 

If I brought you 50 correctly pressed books (say, that it would be a jump from 9.4 to 9.6 or 9.0 to 9.2) and 50 non-pressed books, can you tell the difference?

 

I can't.

 

CGC would go out of business with spending they $$$ needed to detect it.

 

Maybe the people who don't like pressing, can take up a collection of say.....$500,000 and give it to CGC, so they don't go out of business when they do what you want.

 

I hope you know I was tounge in cheek on that last part

 

 

 

I'm with you on the cost, Steve, that's why I mentioned CPR books specifically - not raw pressed books. Once CGC gives a book grade, they have the ability to identify that book if it were to show up again in a raw state. It would be more costly to do this, but it's too important not to.

 

But Gary, who is to say that CGC was correct the first time? And I don't actually think you could differentiate between many of the books with any amount of certainty. Especially on uber high grade books.

[blazingbob]

All of those books started out raw before they got put into those plastic holders. A lot of grading was used to determine if they were even worth getting slabbed. The reason CGC is in business is because of the fact that most people can't grade and that consistency is lacking.

 

I'm all for educating collectors and Dealers. I'm not above being certified or going to school to learn something.

 

Gary, you really should retire from this hobby and stop being a Overstreet advisor. When exactly have all of you even been in the same room to discuss the hobby? And before you bring up the logistics of travel I'll ask if you've ever heard of webex?

 

Typical let the other guy do it type thinking.

 

 

 

 

[Moondog]

Gary I have lots of respect for you but wanted to share a few thoughts:

 

My indignation with CPR stems from the fact that it couldn't exist if CGC would accept responsibility for their role in the practice and change their procedures. If a book receives a certain grade, and subsequently the book is manipulated and resubmitted it should be noted on the label that this book has been manipulated (I don't care what color label it gets). If it means adding cost to the process (the detection of manipulation, high-res scans, data base monitoring, added personnel etc.) then they should do it.

 

The problem with what you are proposing is consistency. You can not detect MOST pressed books and the room for error would be enormous. That's not the case with any other form of work done to a book. Would you want a company performing a service where likely more than 1/2 the judgement calls would or could be incorrect?

 

I agree on more consistent grading. Ever since F_T has told me how his grading is consistent, I've been unable to find a reason as to why CGC's isn't. Maybe F_T is just one of those rare people who excel at something, or maybe he has a system that works really well.

 

Going forward, this is going to be at the heart of how CGC's rep is maintained IMO. They are great people (I know almost all of them personally and consider most of them friends) but as we all agree, we are all flawed. Somehow a better system will need to be built for better quality control. These detailed discussions are putting the focus on "buying the book and not the label" to such a great degree that consistency is being pushed to the forefront. Collectors are becoming better graders because of these discussions.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how CGC adapts as collectors become better educated.

 

But because this practice would probably result in lower profits, they will hide behind their standard defenses of "pressing is not detectable, we don't know if a book has been graded before unless it has it's resubbed with its label, etc.)." This conflict of interest - providing a service that claims to certify what a book is, yet not to the degree that collectors demand - is the heart of the matter.

 

There is no conflict of interest. They set the parameters for their company and are sticking by them.

 

Have you had any progress with your lab work in attempting to detect pressed books?

 

And the FF 112 matter was so egregious that I had to say something. Sure the guy sold the book for $3,000, but someone profited to the tune of $20,000. That just ain't right.

 

There really is no line in the sand that you can draw here and say this is right and that isn't.

 

Everyone was treated fairly every step of the way. It's just an emotional argument, not a logical one.

 

 

Hey Roy,

 

See my answer to Steve - it's the CPR books that I'm referring to. And we can agree to disagree about the "fair" treatment the fellow who lost $$20,000 received.

[FlyingDonut]

All of those books started out raw before they got put into those plastic holders. A lot of grading was used to determine if they were even worth getting slabbed. The reason CGC is in business is because of the fact that most people can't grade and that consistency is lacking.

 

I'm all for educating collectors and Dealers. I'm not above being certified or going to school to learn something.

 

Gary, you really should retire from this hobby and stop being a Overstreet advisor.

 

Typical let the other guy do it type thinking.

 

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

 

Hey Roy,

 

See my answer to Steve - it's the CPR books that I'm referring to. And we can agree to disagree about the "fair" treatment the fellow who lost $$20,000 received.

 

Fair enough. Still looks impossible to implement going forward.

 

Just wanted to ask this again:

 

Have you had any progress with your lab work in attempting to detect pressed books?