How in the world did this go unnoticed???

[shadroch]

While others have moral issues with pressing, I have practical ones.

When a book is trimmed into a certain grade, that trimming is permanent and will be with the book forever.

When a book is pressed from a 9.0 to a 9.4, is there any assurance that the pressing is permanent? In twentyfive years, will we have books in slabs that are now 9.0s even though they have the 9.4 label they earned at the time?

There are a lot of benefits to the seller of a pressed book, but whats in it for the buyers?

[marvelcollector]

...and that's 1000.

Everybody can stop now.

[MCMiles]

I have the feeling it doesn't have that much to do with pressing. I think some people just like to complain when others don't share the same opinion. Well, sorry, we all have free will and some view things differently than others.

 

People that think they have figured out how the rest of us should lead our lives, standing on a soap box preaching their version of good and evil are often just as bad as those that infringe upon the rights of others with their actions. Both have a selfish lack of consideration for the thoughts and opinions of others. Both do it to various degrees. Some not so bad, some terribly.

 

People with an ability to reason and compromise will find each other and be able to work together. The rest can go on with your preaching, far fetched comparisons, accusations, and pizzing on each other.

 

 

You still haven't bothered to look up that Abraham Lincoln quote, have you?

[DrWatson]

Someone remind me why I'm the anti-christ again?

Because you try to reason with illogical arguments and engage in discussions with individuals who more than likely will never be satisfied because they are so intent on what is their perceived right they lose sight of the rights of others.

[Monstro]

WHAT IS THE ING POINT OF HIGH GRADE BOOKS AT ALL??

[DrWatson]

WHAT IS THE ING POINT OF HIGH GRADE BOOKS AT ALL??

I would buy a high grade book even if the only thing it did was cause you consternation.

[Monstro]

More like constipation.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

WHAT IS THE ING POINT OF HIGH GRADE BOOKS AT ALL??

 

Actually, you are right, there is no point. Andrew (COI) had it right in his rant a few months ago; basically, the appetites of finicky, high grade collectors (myself included) are to blame for the hobby as it currently stands.

 

Whether its someone pressing a book, or doing far worse (a dab of color touch, trimming, etc.), at the end of the day, the monster needs to be fed.

 

What's often missed in the hundreds of pages one of these Pressing threads invariably amasses are the lone voices of reason that quietly interject a thought or two; the low or mid-grade collectors who look upon the rest of us as the ninnies we really are.

 

[Monstro]

I have the feeling it doesn't have that much to do with pressing. I think some people just like to complain when others don't share the same opinion. Well, sorry, we all have free will and some view things differently than others.

 

People that think they have figured out how the rest of us should lead our lives, standing on a soap box preaching their version of good and evil are often just as bad as those that infringe upon the rights of others with their actions. Both have a selfish lack of consideration for the thoughts and opinions of others. Both do it to various degrees. Some not so bad, some terribly.

 

People with an ability to reason and compromise will find each other and be able to work together. The rest can go on with your preaching, far fetched comparisons, accusations, and pizzing on each other.

 

 

You still haven't bothered to look up that Abraham Lincoln quote, have you?

 

"Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all comics are created equal."

[VintageComics]

WHAT IS THE ING POINT OF HIGH GRADE BOOKS AT ALL??

 

...about the same point as posting on a chat forum.

 

[gaz973]

What I refuse to accept is the parameters you've set for this discussion which means attacking something as "morally wrong" when in reality you've provided no foundation -- it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference.

Isn't that true of trimming as well? That it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference?

 

Trimming a comic isn't illegal. Trimming might be nearly impossible to detect and improve "grade". Trimming was once a commercially offered treatment and opinions evolved over time against the practice.

 

I guess I'm not understanding why "morally wrong" conclusions are widely accepted against a specific treatment (trimming), but then rejected out of hand when applied to any other treatments.

 

This is the point that I was trying to make yesterday. While there is a difference in the extent of invasiveness, I'm not sure how some people can see pressing as being OK and trimming as being the devils work. I'm not trying to defend trimming but it just makes some peoples point of view seem a contradictory at best and hypocrytical at worst.

 

Artificially enhancing the grade is artificially enhancing the grade, the difference is only in the severity of the procedure.

I think that's why there's a rift when it comes to pressing. One side looks at the less invasive nature of pressing (but rarely mentions the disassembled variety). The other side looks at impact to the law of entropy (decay is expected, rare if not present: the preservation/value connection).

 

Undisclosed trimming "cheats" the law of entropy (re-trimming edges removes damage/decay).

 

Undisclosed pressing (intact or disassembly) also "cheats" the law of entropy...and the community splits, endless debates and arguments persist...

 

 

What's funny is that as riled up as I get about this "debate" (in the few instances where it is a debate, and not a pizzing contest...guilty as charged, thank you ), I've had 150-200 books TOPS pressed for me in the last few years, many of which were common Coppers/Moderns that are still sitting in my closet.

 

I don't fall into the Lauterbach/Schmell/whoever group of volume pressers/submitters. The only time the pedigree designation was absent on a book I pressed and resubmitted was when CGC lost two of my old labels during submission . I disclose pressing on a book. If I buy a book with disclosure, its also sold with the same disclosure because I keep notes....though it doesn't matter to me, it might matter to the next guy.

 

Someone remind me why I'm the anti-christ again?

 

 

 

I hadn't noticed you personally getting slated.

[jbud73]

Nice try, Bob. But, first, that isn't "my business". I'm an investor who suffers like everybody else when all the banks, companies, ratings agencies, etc. who are supposed to be helping me, their customer, fail to do their jobs or abuse their positions.

 

Second of all, all of those activities you mentioned ARE, indeed, deplorable. That's why Bernie Madoff, Bernie Ebbers, Jeff Skilling, etc. are in JAIL. That's why Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken did HARD TIME. That's why Sandy Weill got booted from Citigroup and is OUT OF A JOB. That's why all those Wall Street banks paid millions (billions?) of dollars of fines for their blatant conflicts of interest in the late 1990s and early 2000s. That's why all these bank execs keep getting dragged up to Capitol Hill to testify about their business activities leading up to the financial meltdown of 2008. They all got what they deserved in the end.

 

Anyway, it's all just classic misdirection yet again. Just because there are some bad apples in the financial world and other industries doesn't justify the lot of you steamrolling every book in your path and laying waste to the historical integrity of comics. Nobody has yet responded to my question of how can a book that has been artificially manipulated to a higher grade can be considered the equal to a book that was cherry picked off the stands and meticulously preserved for decades by its owner(s).

 

I still own hundreds of slabs, though I have sold off a good chunk of my modest collection. I still own many thousands of raw books. As some of you know, I am very active in the original art side of the hobby. And, I continue to buy loads of TPBs, hardcovers and digital comics every month and was continuing to actively buy raw books up until just a year or two ago. I attend conventions, hang out regularly with many Board members and participate almost daily on these Boards. I just no longer buy slabbed high grade - that part of the hobby is forever dead to me now.

 

It doesn't matter if this house of cards eventually comes tumbling down - the damage has been done. It was never enough to "just disclose". Manipulating books has a permanent effect on the rest of collectors and every collector that follows down the line. I wonder if the future Brulatos and Schmells of the world will feel as favorably about pressing as their predecessors. Indeed, after this crack-press-resub game eventually and inevitably implodes upon itself, why would future generations of collectors, with no seat on the current gravy train, even think that it was ever a good idea to pancake all those books that were already beautiful and well-preserved.

 

I'm sure this post will be just as derided by many as my last one. But, judging from the e-mails, PMs and conversations I have with many collectors, both here on the Boards and those who are not, I know that I am far from alone in my feelings about this matter.

 

+1

 

'cept I can't kick the Peds, I'm not enough to believe that they haven't been tampered with - I just feel that once they are in my possession they will no longer have the potential to be subjected to the latest 'bleed a stone dry' scheme. I also allow myself to dream that the older label books I buy might actually have been 'treatment' free.

 

[Comicopolis]

WHAT IS THE ING POINT OF HIGH GRADE BOOKS AT ALL??

 

 

What's often missed in the hundreds of pages one of these Pressing threads invariably amasses are the lone voices of reason that quietly interject a thought or two; the low or mid-grade collectors who look upon the rest of us as the ninnies we really are.

 

You Sir, are a wise man

[arexcrooke]

WHAT IS THE ING POINT OF HIGH GRADE BOOKS AT ALL??

 

 

What's often missed in the hundreds of pages one of these Pressing threads invariably amasses are the lone voices of reason that quietly interject a thought or two; the low or mid-grade collectors who look upon the rest of us as the ninnies we really are.

 

You Sir, are a wise man

That is Mr. Ninny to you Jive

[tth2]

What I refuse to accept is the parameters you've set for this discussion which means attacking something as "morally wrong" when in reality you've provided no foundation -- it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference.

Isn't that true of trimming as well? That it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference?

 

Trimming a comic isn't illegal. Trimming might be nearly impossible to detect and improve "grade". Trimming was once a commercially offered treatment and opinions evolved over time against the practice.

 

I guess I'm not understanding why "morally wrong" conclusions are widely accepted against a specific treatment (trimming), but then rejected out of hand when applied to any other treatments.

Well said.

 

Plus all these distinctions about something being legal or illegal drive me nuts. The difference between something being legal and illegal is because a law was passed by our duly elected representatives or there was a ruling by a court, not because it was handed down from high to Moses. Many things that are now illegal used to be legal. Many things that are now legal used to be illegal. Things change, so the fact that something is legal or illegal is not the last word on whether something is right or wrong.

[sckao]

What I refuse to accept is the parameters you've set for this discussion which means attacking something as "morally wrong" when in reality you've provided no foundation -- it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference.

Isn't that true of trimming as well? That it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference?

 

Trimming a comic isn't illegal. Trimming might be nearly impossible to detect and improve "grade". Trimming was once a commercially offered treatment and opinions evolved over time against the practice.

 

I guess I'm not understanding why "morally wrong" conclusions are widely accepted against a specific treatment (trimming), but then rejected out of hand when applied to any other treatments.

Well said.

 

Plus all these distinctions about something being legal or illegal drive me nuts. The difference between something being legal and illegal is because a law was passed by our duly elected representatives or there was a ruling by a court, not because it was handed down from high to Moses. Many things that are now illegal used to be legal. Many things that are now legal used to be illegal. Things change, so the fact that something is legal or illegal is not the last word on whether something is right or wrong.

 

 

But thanks for imposing your religious views on everyone.... (thumbs u

 

 

[Foolkiller]

What I refuse to accept is the parameters you've set for this discussion which means attacking something as "morally wrong" when in reality you've provided no foundation -- it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference.

Isn't that true of trimming as well? That it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference?

 

Trimming a comic isn't illegal. Trimming might be nearly impossible to detect and improve "grade". Trimming was once a commercially offered treatment and opinions evolved over time against the practice.

 

I guess I'm not understanding why "morally wrong" conclusions are widely accepted against a specific treatment (trimming), but then rejected out of hand when applied to any other treatments.

Well said.

 

Plus all these distinctions about something being legal or illegal drive me nuts. The difference between something being legal and illegal is because a law was passed by our duly elected representatives or there was a ruling by a court, not because it was handed down from high to Moses. Many things that are now illegal used to be legal. Many things that are now legal used to be illegal. Things change, so the fact that something is legal or illegal is not the last word on whether something is right or wrong.

 

How about this, trimming has been rejected by almost the entire comic book community and there is clear establishment that a trimmed comic book sells for less... so it would clearly be "fraudulent" to pass a trimmed comic book as original.

 

No such data or sentiment exists regarding pressing.

 

[jbud73]

What I refuse to accept is the parameters you've set for this discussion which means attacking something as "morally wrong" when in reality you've provided no foundation -- it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference.

Isn't that true of trimming as well? That it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference?

 

Trimming a comic isn't illegal. Trimming might be nearly impossible to detect and improve "grade". Trimming was once a commercially offered treatment and opinions evolved over time against the practice.

 

I guess I'm not understanding why "morally wrong" conclusions are widely accepted against a specific treatment (trimming), but then rejected out of hand when applied to any other treatments.

Well said.

 

Plus all these distinctions about something being legal or illegal drive me nuts. The difference between something being legal and illegal is because a law was passed by our duly elected representatives or there was a ruling by a court, not because it was handed down from high to Moses. Many things that are now illegal used to be legal. Many things that are now legal used to be illegal. Things change, so the fact that something is legal or illegal is not the last word on whether something is right or wrong.

 

How about this, trimming has been rejected by almost the entire comic book community and there is clear establishment that a trimmed comic book sells for less... so it would clearly be "fraudulent" to pass a trimmed comic book as original.

 

No such data or sentiment exists regarding pressing.

 

 

well I'm not disagreeing with that Brian, but what about CT and glue? Back in the day a lot of books received that 'treatment' - when the jury finally came in, well we got a lot of "that was just the way things were back then - it was accepted" and a Blue label (IT ALWAYS MUST HAVE A BLUE LABEL) with notations. Of course now it's not accepted, but going backwards is so much more difficult than moving forward.

 

I think what I always take from Gene's post is the sense of "hobby", the thinking outside the box of, even if you could, you may want to consider if you should. Are the potential ramifications of what is being done to comic books going to stop the money making loophole? Probably not, but the debate and individuals chiming in about the long terms impact and other larger ramifications is refreshing. Had a similar debate occurred in the slight CT and Glue years, maybe a few more books may have survived being processed.

 

I'll admit Pandora is out and pressing is not going anywhere right now, but for me the state of mind it represents, the 'we will do anything we can to a comic that increases a grade and still garners a blue label' - its the ANYTHING that always gives me pause. Sooner or later pressing will begin to dry up, just as slight CT and Glue did. I for one shudder to think what will be 'necessary' in order to keep the money mother ship going.

 

Other than that, the dance has been danced before - though I did find Steve B.'s point on deacidification interesting, I guess I read 26 pages to think about that (thanks Steve).

 

Hope all the usual suspects are well, and that out paths cross at some point this year.

 

 

Jason

[tth2]

What I refuse to accept is the parameters you've set for this discussion which means attacking something as "morally wrong" when in reality you've provided no foundation -- it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference.

Isn't that true of trimming as well? That it's ultimately just an expression of your feeling of preference?

 

Trimming a comic isn't illegal. Trimming might be nearly impossible to detect and improve "grade". Trimming was once a commercially offered treatment and opinions evolved over time against the practice.

 

I guess I'm not understanding why "morally wrong" conclusions are widely accepted against a specific treatment (trimming), but then rejected out of hand when applied to any other treatments.

Well said.

 

Plus all these distinctions about something being legal or illegal drive me nuts. The difference between something being legal and illegal is because a law was passed by our duly elected representatives or there was a ruling by a court, not because it was handed down from high to Moses. Many things that are now illegal used to be legal. Many things that are now legal used to be illegal. Things change, so the fact that something is legal or illegal is not the last word on whether something is right or wrong.

 

How about this, trimming has been rejected by almost the entire comic book community and there is clear establishment that a trimmed comic book sells for less... so it would clearly be "fraudulent" to pass a trimmed comic book as original.

 

No such data or sentiment exists regarding pressing.

My point, Brian, is that sentiments change, whether they rise to the level of an enactment of law, and they usually change as the result of a few voices that refuse to shut up. These changes even happen within the comic community, as those of us who've been around long enough can remember.

 

For example, restoration used to be viewed much more benignly in this hobby and while not as accepted as pressing is today, was still generally accepted. Whether trimming specifically was also viewed benignly, I don't remember because I don't think a distinction was drawn between trimming and restoration. It was all simply lumped together as "restoration" at the time. In any event, I can remember reading angry columns by Keith Contarino during that period opposing restoration. Over the years, the consensus changed and restoration became viewed much more negatively, and as you say, trimming in particular became viewed as anathema.

 

The hope of the anti-pressers is that someday the consensus on pressing will change too. It's not written in stone that because it's accepted now, that it will forever be accepted. If the anti-pressers don't continue to speak up, however, then obviously the status quo, pressing, will continue unabated.

[tth2]

We're on exactly the same sheet of music here, Jason.