When did this cover reach 30k ?

[CollectingFool]

. These prices may look cheap to certain collectors in the field, but to 99% of the "collectorate" more than 99% of the art in the hobby is entirely un-obtainable

I agree with this, actually. Anything worth owning is pretty much $100 and up. Anything with any *real* demand is $1k and up. It's a hard hobby to get into at the entry level, with prices what they are

 

I don't agree with this so much. Sure, if you compare our hobby to collecting Pez dispensers prices seem a little wacky. In my experience most people that come into this hobby already collected comic books. I don't mean bought current comics and saved them. I mean bought Bronze, Silver or Golden Age books and many times slabbed books. Anyone who's familiar with that hobby can't be too shocked by the prices in this one.

 

This isn't the type of hobby that's going to attract complete novices off the street. I don't collect classic cars but I have an interest in them. I don't know prices really but I know what a "regular" car costs and I know more than likely a good classic car will cost more. I know what a car is, I've driven one before and I have one I use for utilitarian purposes. Those facts combined with my love of antiques make me likely to want to enter the classic car hobby. If I'd never even seen a car before I doubt I'd care. Not the greatest analogy I know but you get the point. No one is going to wander in off the streets with no experience or exposure to other collectibles and dive into comic OA.

 

As for the OA market being a mature collectibles market, I still think it resembles a market entering it's adolescence. We still have a lot of "growing pains" to go through and to be honest, I think the very nature of the hobby will keep us from resembling other collectible markets that have fully matured. At least that's what I hope!

 

 

[SuperBird]

Sure, if you compare our hobby to collecting Pez dispensers prices seem a little wacky. In my experience most people that come into this hobby already collected comic books. I don't mean bought current comics and saved them. I mean bought Bronze, Silver or Golden Age books and many times slabbed books. Anyone who's familiar with that hobby can't be too shocked by the prices in this one.

 

This isn't the type of hobby that's going to attract complete novices off the street. I don't collect classic cars but I have an interest in them. I don't know prices really but I know what a "regular" car costs and I know more than likely a good classic car will cost more. I know what a car is, I've driven one before and I have one I use for utilitarian purposes. Those facts combined with my love of antiques make me likely to want to enter the classic car hobby. If I'd never even seen a car before I doubt I'd care. Not the greatest analogy I know but you get the point. No one is going to wander in off the streets with no experience or exposure to other collectibles and dive into comic OA.

 

 

It's not about being "shocked" at the prices, it's more the reality of being unable to collect pages you might want due to those prices. You can collect comics with basically very little money. Comic art? no way. So I would definitely say that 99% of the comic book collecting community (Not the CGC community, but comic collectors in general) that OA prices are a big barrier to entering the hobby.

 

There's nothing wrong with that, I'm just saying that it is a tough hobby to enter. It's not like someone can walk in and drop $5 on something to get a taste of it, the way they could with most collectibles (baseball cards, comics, stamps, toys, etc.)

[NelsonAI]

It's not easy but you can find nice interior panel pages for under $25. The pages generally are not the big six, (Spiderman, Batman, Superman, Hulk, Wolverine, X-Men), but if it's a lesser known character or a brand new artist from the modern era, you can certainly find some nice starter pieces.

 

Why wait until an artist becomes a star? Buy the art before he's established and it'll be significantly cheaper.

 

Part of the fun for me while attending shows is to walk around artist alley to discover the new talent. You may have to browse through stacks of pages before you find anything but something will catch your eye.

 

It all depends on what you are interested in.

 

Cheers!

N.

 

[jbud73]

by the way.. dealer hate is misplaced.

 

Who said anything about hating dealers? This is just the way the market works. Many of the people involved that I think contributed to the insanely escalating prices for no reason are "collectors" that move more art than a lot of dealers or use dealers to move their art for them.

 

The coin market works exactly the same way. Slabbing just made it easier. Same with comics IMO. The reason I like OA and not comics is because of the less mature market. Same with coins. I collect only unslabbed coins and focus on US Continental coins and ancient Roman coins where the slabbing is at a minimum. In other collectible markets it's almost impossible for a collector to wheel and deal.

 

Don't get a complex. No one is advocating torches and pitchforks for the masses to go after dealers. It's just good to have certain things in mind when deciding what to go after or how to negotiate on that next coveted piece.

 

 

I think the trend Ruben described occurs in both comics and OA, its just easier to see in OA because there are fewer examples, or really only one example of every piece so sales are easier to track. The distortion in OA is the inclusion of trade into the transaction, I'd argue a overwhelming % of comic transactions are straight cash - so while the sales are easier to track in OA, the value of the sales is harder to establish.

 

In terms of dealer hate, I think Ruben was describing dealer manipulation - having observed both markets for a number of years now I believe the inclusion of trade, smaller pool of actual product (the art available verses comics available) allows this to happen to a much greater degree in OA.

 

As for where would the OA or comics world be without dealers - while I think dealer hate is usually misplaced, dealer skepticism has usually served me well and I know a few dealers that I consider friends. That said a dealer with by definition will always try to sell their product for as much as they can realize and a collector will try to obtain that same good for the least amount possible. I've said this before but that puts both parties in a natural state of competition. As to where each hobby would be without dealers? I have to say tech advances (the internet) and increases in collector to collector sales have been a boon to the collector IMO. A world without dealers I gotta tell you its an interesting thought in the John Lennon "Imagine" sense of things. I also think in analogous terms a la Brave Heart...

 

We need to dealers (nobles) .... why, why do we need them?

And we all remember what the nobles (dealers) did to William Wallace now don't we.

[CollectingFool]

It's not like someone can walk in and drop $5 on something to get a taste of it, the way they could with most collectibles (baseball cards, comics, stamps, toys, etc.)

 

Actually, comic art is unique in that someone interested can (for the price of a convention ticket and a sketchbook) build a collection of free sketches and never have to spend a penny on comic art. I know most people don't think of free convention sketches as "part of the hobby" but a lot of people I know in the hobby got their first piece for free from an artist at a convention.

 

People were getting free con sketches for decades before Free Comic Book Day became an annual event.

 

 

[fc]

When are dealers necessary or useful? I think it is when they create a two way market

for the art they sell.

 

What I mean is, have you ever bought something from a dealer for 1000 dollars and then

tried to sell it back to them a year later? Only to have the dealer offer you 350 dollars for

the item? That is not creating a two way market. That is called getting shafted.

 

On the other hand you might find a dealer very interested in creating a two way market for

the items they sell. That 1000 dollar item, if the price stayed stable, brought back to the

dealer for the reason of selling, could get you an offer of 850. This is a very reasonable

offer in my mind if everything stays static price wise. The dealer has a business to run and

they often work on 15-25% markup on normal items. They want to move material as fast

as they can and being stuck with some item tying up a 850 dollars for a year because

they priced it too high is silly.

 

To me, this is when a dealer truly becomes useful to a market.

 

Otherwise, with websites like ebay one can easily avoid the dealer in description #1 and

sell directly to a collector (or the dealer has to compete for the item against collectors).

 

Dealer hate is a very real thing. Just do not lump ALL dealers into the same pool.

[comicartcom]

What I mean is, have you ever bought something from a dealer for 1000 dollars and then

tried to sell it back to them a year later? Only to have the dealer offer you 350 dollars for

the item? That is not creating a two way market. That is called getting shafted.

 

On the other hand you might find a dealer very interested in creating a two way market for

the items they sell. That 1000 dollar item, if the price stayed stable, brought back to the

dealer for the reason of selling, could get you an offer of 850. This is a very reasonable

offer in my mind if everything stays static price wise. The dealer has a business to run and

they often work on 15-25% markup on normal items.

 

your examples of a two-way market are entirely unreasonable and unrealistic

 

first of all, you have to take into account what a dealer's yearly business expenses are and what his yearly gross is. Then you have to take into account discounts and his own labor..

 

a dealer grossing $300k a year (and most don't) working on 15% margin is out of business very soon while someone grossing $2mil making 15% isn't making very much money (unless he moves 10 pieces over the year & isn't working)

 

the reality is that a $1000 item generally has a "buy-back" for a dealer of approx 50-60% depending on salability, Of course, if it's going to be a quick flip, then 15% is great, but very few items are quick flip and there are many items, that are worth the price a dealer is asking, but do not sell for years. This is factored into a dealer's costs and is representative of an item you will only get 35% for

 

I would wager that 90% of the collectors do not run their own business and are in the dark to what it really costs to run a business

 

here is an example:

 

it used to cost me $9000 to purchase my 3 booths at SDCC and man them, get hotels, rental vehicle, display racks (I would build a new one every year) ship material and on and on. If I only did $50k in sales and I paid 85% for merch, it was a waste of my time and a miserable investment.

 

a great item with an easy sale is a good use at 85%

a medium or less item at 85% is a bankrupt business

 

 

[comicartcom]

and by the way, collectors who sell are just as guilty as anyone in driving up prices.. I have sold (as a dealer) items that I have lost money on.

 

I kow few collectors who don't try to make profits. Nay - they EXPECT to make profits, and like a dealer asking a higher price everytime he gets an item in, collectors have equal stature in that endeavour.

 

another fact is that collectors and dealers are really in lockstep in market push. a dealer cannot sel something unless someone is willing to pay.

[fc]

comicartcom,

 

you would know better then i what it takes to make it in the original art market.

I just threw out the number of 1000 to make it easy to discuss. Naturally cheaper items

do not get the same treatment as an item that costs 10,000 but with some types of

dealers they do!

 

i am drawing on experience from the coin collecting hobby and discussing it with dealers

on the PCGS forums. These dealers sell coins in the 200-1000 range but often they

are 2500 up to 25000. Some even go higher. They specialize in certain areas and have

steady clients always willing to buy superior pieces. Naturally you will find cheaper

coins on their website from time to time but in general the meat of their business is

higher end material.

 

based on what they have told me, 15-25% markup is quite common for them. Rarely do

they ever get the chance to mark up items 100% like a retail store or even 50%.

 

but these are dealers who do not rip their customers on the buy side and create a full

two way market for what they sell.

 

Take Rick Snow for example. He specializes in indian head cents. He puts a sticker

on each slabbed coin that he approves is properly graded along with a laminated photo

of the coin. (Notice how slabbed material is often graded wrong... those are lynching words

on the general comic forum. 1/2 of the material he views is improperly graded).

 

He creates a full two way market on these coins and is willing to buy them ANY TIME.

They are about as liquid as you can get in the coin hobby when it comes time to sell.

He will buy them back AT A MINIMUM OF 75% of his clearly stated price sheet on

his website which is updated often and honestly. The price sheet is what he sells at.

 

Since he is so open, honest, and trusty worthy his business is booming.

 

I feel that a dealer should be able to emulate that type of setup if they are confident

in what they are selling. Sell a cover for 20K and if they market is still stable.. why

would a dealer not want it back for 15-19K so they can sell it again six months later?

The same dealer would also be a good choice to represent me at an auction for 5%.

[jjonahjameson1]

. The dealer has a business to run and

they often work on 15-25% markup on normal items.

 

I would like to submit this as a candidate for funniest post of the year.

[CollectingFool]

i am drawing on experience from the coin collecting hobby and discussing it with dealers on the PCGS forums.

 

There is no way to compare the two hobbies. The coin market, especially on those coins you were referring to, has a very stable and public price guide. If a dealer sells something for $1000 and he is known to be consistent and reliable, he can afford to take something back for $850 because the next person that comes along and sees the coin KNOWS it is worth $1000.

 

Comic art and unique items in general are so much more subjective. A comic art dealer may need to hold on to an item a lot longer because it may take a while for someone else to come along that agrees that piece is worth $1000. Because of that prices can range wildly from place to place. One dealer may have a piece for $5K, sells it or trades it and it shows up one month later for $12K at another dealer. That type of swing is NOT common in the coin market unless precious metal prices are acting crazy or you manage to find something great and get a favorable grade on it when you get it slabbed.

 

 

 

 

[fc]

. The dealer has a business to run and

they often work on 15-25% markup on normal items.

 

I would like to submit this as a candidate for funniest post of the year.

 

i am not sure why it is funny when i clearly posted an example above of a coin dealer

who does it. coins are a collectible hobby and comics/OA are very comparable on how

they are sold via shows and a website. These dealers do not own a brick and mortar

presence. Is some of the confusion from that perhaps?

 

Maybe the OA market is very thin and fragile? It would not give me a good feeling

to know a future purchase could be worth a fraction of what I paid because 2-3 other

collectors stopped buying certain material?

 

feel free to view his website:http://www.indiancent.com/

 

perhaps what i am bring forth is so foreign to some people and their past experiences they

have a hard time grasping what a true two way market is and the benefits for collectors

as well as the dealer.

 

c'est la vie. i know which type of dealer I would seek out.

 

-------------

another example: http://www.caccoin.com/

the dealers who participate in CAC have buy prices for all their stickered material and

one can freely ask a participating dealer what it is. So you could buy a coin one day

for 10K and sell it back tomorrow at the price on their buy sheet. The price is often

75-85% of what you just paid.

 

I guess in the original art hobby one could find a few dealers like this?!? I guess not

which does not give me confidence there is a true fair two way market going on?!?

[arzach42]

Because every item in the OA market is unique then the price is whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

 

Without a price guide collusion, market manipulation, con-man, flippers, etc will exist.

 

As has been pointed out, there are good dealer and bad dealers. There are good collectors and bad collectors.

 

If you are a collector and like something, then buy it. You can keep it forever knowing you have the only one.

 

If your goal is to make money, then buyer and seller beware.

[comicartcom]

look FC.. your comparisons of a commodity based market (like coins which commoditize against precious metals in a big way) with an entirely different market don't work for all the reasons I stated and Ruben as well.

 

yes, if you only sell $20,000 items and have quick flips, 15% will make you money, presuming you have an opportuinty to sell at least 20 of those items per year. this represents a tiny sliver of the market

 

most dealers sell items from $25 all the way up and the $25-250 items are the weekly bread and butter. paying 75-85% on those is a useless measure

[fc]

well i have said my bit more or less. i think that just because original art is unique does not

automatically mean it is a reason why dealers in that arena could not be more like

coin dealers. Higher end coins are unique. They are traced back decades upon

decades to different owners. Each has its own look or eye appeal and therefore

price. A price guide in the higher end coin world is next to useless. A dealer who

specializes in certain material will know the true value and offer accordingly if

he wishes to create a two way market.

 

A dealer who specializes in covers could simply make a list of all that the ones

an artist has done and put buy prices next to each. If he does not get any people

wanting to sell he will have to raise his prices until they reach a point people

would rather sell to him then goto an auction. Be it Kirby, Steranko, or whatever.

 

Over the years and if not decades he would be the goto person for selling and

buying that certain material as he has confidence in his ability to buy and sell it.

 

But enough is enough. I know the type of dealer I am describing exists and if one

does not in the original art world.. so be it. People here would know. I am just

disappointed is all.

 

What do you consider to be a fair two way market in original art then? Buy at 10K

and sell back to a dealer for 5.5K? If you do not like that try selling it yourself

on ebay, auction, or to another collector?

 

To me that is not a two way market and I guess i have to reconcile the fact one

may not exist for this part of the hobby. I feel it is this lack of a two way market

that creates such dislike for dealers in general. No wonder eh?

[comicartcom]

this market is as two-way as anything else..

 

a dealer sells the Spidey 155 cover for $12-15k (it's true perceived value) and a collector puts it out there for $30k (a price beyond the pale) .. call that the free market.. I do indeed think it's gouging and unrealistic, but I have no money involved so I don't care.

 

I buy great stuff, I pay a very high %

I buy anythng else, your net represents all the costs, time, effort & one big thing - my ability over the years to create a client database.

I'm happy making 10% on quick sell items over $1000, where most of the time I even have money in hand at pretty much the same moment my check is being cashed.

 

If I have to find a buyer and hold my investment, your net reflects all the factors involved.

 

or you can sell it yourself. You may or may successfully sell it or you may not

if you don't sell it, you've cursed yourself. If I don't sell it, I eat the costs and the difference between my buying it from you or you trying to & hoping to sell it is that my way you get cash in hand

 

furthermore, whether it is OA, comics, posters (like my main interest today) or whatever collectible, it isn't what it is, in that market it's only the financials as I explained them. Coins are sold at precious metals rates for much of the hobby and one dealer can easily sell his entire stock TODAY to almost any other dealer & get that high rate you mention.. That doesn't exist in this hobby - I know, I've tried it. I can't get any more than you can right at this moment, or this week or this month if I wish to sell out and that's because - unlike coins - our collectibles are an entirely abstract concept. We really aren't selling anything that has any value in a 1929-style depression and coins can still be sold at metal value, right at this moment in the same depression.

 

the markets are not alike, and so you are not likely to see the same behaviours in the area you're discussing

 

Rich

 

[comicartcom]

wow.. the system censored this:

 

*spoon* call that the free market

 

*spoon* was R e p u b l i c a n

 

I guess they thought I was making a political post.. that's funny

[fc]

thanks rich for explaining your side of the situation.

 

just a note.. yes the majority of junk silver and gold are traded easily via precious

metal content but the "real" coin market... most coins trade well above the intrinsic

value.

 

but hey! enough about coins. sorry to bring that up. i was just trying to describe

my idea of a two way market in a hobby i have more experience with at this moment

in time.

 

i buy comics to read and original art to enjoy. that is about it. my flipping days

and watching the market are long gone. i made a large assumption and have learned

it is different here.