How much has CGC books hurt the "raw" book market on Ebay?

[currincomics]

Well, this may be a stupid question, as it seems harder to sell raw books than it did 2-3 years ago. I mean my LCS owner will give me 40-60% of guide for my books(which is why I don't sell to him). Now, I've only been selling this year, but the competition for "raw" books use to be alot stiffer when I was just buying in the past.Also, the reason people would look on ebay is because they can't find the books in question at their LCS. The amount people are willing to pay for "raw" books has really taken a dive in just the past two years, and this may be due to over grading etc., or maybe it's a sign that crash may be upon us? Also, David Sincere of Sincere Comics said it best in his part of the OS 2003 Market Report,"I think there is something inherently wrong when you can't sell a HG or a Key book unless it is encased in plastic by a grading company; it's a sad day indeed." Now that I do agree with, for without the "raw" comic back market collecting and sales-there would be no CGC or the like.

[mitol]

I've been in search of specific raw books on eBay for the last couple of years and have been disappointed time and time again. Actually, I only remember the purchase of one raw book out of close to 100 which I was completely happy with. The rest were just different levels of disappointment and horror stories. The cynical side of me says that most sellers are familiar with CGC, but they already know their books won't make the grade they're advertising raw. I've actually had a seller advertise his books as NM/M and when I emailed him about my disappointment and asked him what method (CGC or Overstreet) he used to grade books, he annoyingly responded that no one uses Overstreet anymore. As far as he was concerned, when someone starts quoting him a 9.6 or 9.8, that means almost absolutley mint. Not near mint/mint but mint with exceptions. Overstreet guide is hardly used by anyone in the industry except for Silver or Golden Age books. They are an antiquated relic of the 1980's that is still around but hardly used today. My 2 cents why people no longer buy raw.

 

[aardvark88]

Collectors are very paranoid thinking that a raw vf or vf/nm cannot possibly be totally unrestored. Ppl expect u to pay the CGC tax on all vintage comics vf or better even if u lose $$ on the slabbing fees.

[jbud73]

I think there are a few things that CGC has done to the raw market, whether they are all bad is debatable.

 

- lowered consumer confidence, the attitude of "well if its that sweet, why isnt it slabbed?" This especially applies to key books. This has killed consumer confidence in the raw book. And really you wonder, there are alot of board members, myself included who have some sweet raw books, so why is it so hard to believe? I have adopted this attitude and I own nice raw books - and I think I can grade..... its funny trust in this business is so low, and for some good reasons, I just find it funny that I don't even trust my own intuition sometimes now - can't blame CGC for that its just an interesting side bar.

 

- The chronic over grading on Ebay and I'm talking about missing it by more that .5 either way. This was there before CGC, but it sure hasn't let up - if nothing its getting worse.

 

- The high multiples seen for slabbed books, this point works in synergy with point #1. This has the dual effect of lessening the nice books raw on Ebay and again giving rise to customer mistrust of the seller, WHY DIDN'T THEY SLABIT IF ITS SO NICE THEY COULDA MADE SO MUCH MORE. But for books in the $75-$100 range its dubious with the time and effort and the .5 + or - grade depending on the things I talk about in my sig line - this is even more of a reality for the $50 book

 

See I think that unfortunately - or fortunately if your CGC these attitudes have trickled down from the more expensive, lets say $300 and up books, on down to the books in the lower ranges.................

 

And the beat goes on....... but those are my thought anyway, others??

[Mr. Zipper]

Unfortunately there is a pall cast over ungraded books, especially in higher grades.... which is unfortunate for sellers because it's not worth the return for most non-key books. (The irony is, that if every book was slabbed, the CGC premium would be irrelevant and prices would go down.)

 

This is good news however for buyers. Presuming you get a good scan and restoration isn't a big risk, lots of bargains can be had.

 

I just love my raw 8.5 - 9.4 X-Men and ASMs. I get 'em for 1/4 of what the slabbed copies are going for.

 

Good advice for buyers: When you see the crowd going one way, go the other way. Right now the crowd is going to slabs.

 

 

[Aman619]

I just love my raw 8.5 - 9.4 X-Men and ASMs. I get 'em for 1/4 of what the slabbed copies are going for.

 

I dont disagree with what you say.... but how do you "KNOW" the grades on the books if they arent slabbed? Reading that statement makes me think maybe CGC should have trademarked those grade expressions. Because people throw them around like that, and the truth is (for better AND worse) that they arent ANYTHING (not 8.5 OR 9.4) until the CGC slab says they are

 

And, in the market today, only the CGC-slabbed 9.4s hit the jackpot, not yours, mine, or even Metro's!!! Its not right or wrong: it's just as it is right now....

[UnrulyAppendage]

I just love my raw 8.5 - 9.4 X-Men and ASMs. I get 'em for 1/4 of what the slabbed copies are going for.

 

I dont disagree with what you say.... but how do you "KNOW" the grades on the books if they arent slabbed? Reading that statement makes me think maybe CGC should have trademarked those grade expressions. Because people throw them around like that, and the truth is (for better AND worse) that they arent ANYTHING (not 8.5 OR 9.4) until the CGC slab says they are

 

And, in the market today, only the CGC-slabbed 9.4s hit the jackpot, not yours, mine, or even Metro's!!! Its not right or wrong: it's just as it is right now....

 

I think most of us on this board are hyper-critical when it comes to grading. By that I mean we look at a book, we look for specific things that bring a book down. You can make the same statement about CGC in regards to how do they know. Grading is subjective, but there are guidelines. CGC is not the final authority. There are books that have graded 9.8 but have severe miscuts that I would not get over a well centered 9.2 or 9.4.

 

For my bargain hunting, I try to buy from ebay sellers who are antique dealers and get comics as part of an estate find. They know they have something, but they make their money on antiques and it is not worth their time to research the books they have. If they describe something as looking pretty good and provide a good photo or scan, I will buy it if the price is reasonable. You can buy big lots of SA comics this way and if you are smart with your top bid, you will not be taken. Of course, I would not pay top price this way, but you can get some gems and you can always sell the rest.

[currincomics]

The thing about CGC is that if you want to submit books 1) you have to join the CCS or 2) you have to find a dealer(hopefully your LCS) than can submit the books for you, as these are the only two ways that I know of personally to have your private collection graded, or parts of it. So, maybe the collectors "in the know" realize this, and look only for CGC books on the 'bay. I still do not like the fact that the "raw" market is suffering due to grading companies, even though I submit books myself, due to the fact that the back issue raw market is the backbone and cornerstone of the hobby/business we all enjoy. I will say this in accordance to Sincere Comics thoughts, if and when are "raw" books become obsolete because they are not slabbed, and the OS price guide "means nothing"-well you can forget the "crash" theory because the art/hobby/business will be gone forever, and it will be our own faults-pure and simple, because if we all on this board become so mistrustful of others in world of comicdom that #1 CGC and the like will have established a monopoly(which is never a good thing), and the "raw" book and the OS price guide for which this whole beautiful thing has been built on will colapse all together-so through the "crash" out the window and bring on the "comic apocalypse" which will be the end of it all.

[valiantman]

The thing about CGC is that if you want to submit books 1) you have to join the CCS or 2) you have to find a dealer(hopefully your LCS) than can submit the books for you, as these are the only two ways that I know of personally to have your private collection graded, or parts of it.

 

What? All you have to do is fill out the form online,

print it out and mail your books in.

[currincomics]

Ah, knowledge is power, but I was going to join the CCS anyway for the 3 free express grades.

[sfilosa]

Quick Points:

 

My worst investments in comic books were:

 

1) Key books that ended up have undisclosed restoration

2) High grade pedigree books that were flat out overgraded.

 

Pretty much for the past 15 years, book in Very Fine of less condition RARELY EVER sold for full guide price unless it truly was either #1.

 

Hence the need for books that are worth a lot of money to be CGC'd.

 

 

[murph0]

I'd love to buy raw books off eBay. The fact is I just don't trust most eBay sellers, didn't before CGC but I simply didn't have an alternative before. Prices have gone up on raw books on eBay, and it's getting harder to find true VF/NM and above raw books. Combine that with the common overgrading and to me it's just not worth the overall risk. Sure if I can find a nice book with a large scan in the grade I want and from a reputable person, I'd take it. But otherwise I'd pass.

 

Brian

[FFB]

Take a look at what unslabbed high grade books with big scans go for on ebay. I don't think that CGC has hurt the market for raw books per se. I just think, based on my observations, that CGC books carry a premium that exceeds the market price of an unslabbed book.

 

Now, if you want to ask whether CGC has hurt the market for mid-grade and low-grade books (whether slabbed or not, unless the book is a key issue), then I'll agree with you. Most mid-grade slabbed or non-slabbed non-keys seem to go for significantly less than 2003 Overstreet Guide, even when you factor in the shipping cost. Having said that, I don't think it's CGC's "fault" that this happened. I just think that people are hypnotized by the extraordinary premiums that people are paying for extremely high grade slabbed books, so that's all that the people who regularly have a lot of money to spend on comics are looking to buy.

 

Well, this may be a stupid question, as it seems harder to sell raw books than it did 2-3 years ago. I mean my LCS owner will give me 40-60% of guide for my books(which is why I don't sell to him). Now, I've only been selling this year, but the competition for "raw" books use to be alot stiffer when I was just buying in the past.Also, the reason people would look on ebay is because they can't find the books in question at their LCS. The amount people are willing to pay for "raw" books has really taken a dive in just the past two years, and this may be due to over grading etc., or maybe it's a sign that crash may be upon us? Also, David Sincere of Sincere Comics said it best in his part of the OS 2003 Market Report,"I think there is something inherently wrong when you can't sell a HG or a Key book unless it is encased in plastic by a grading company; it's a sad day indeed." Now that I do agree with, for without the "raw" comic back market collecting and sales-there would be no CGC or the like.

[Rob]

I just love my raw 8.5 - 9.4 X-Men and ASMs. I get 'em for 1/4 of what the slabbed copies are going for.

 

I dont disagree with what you say.... but how do you "KNOW" the grades on the books if they arent slabbed? Reading that statement makes me think maybe CGC should have trademarked those grade expressions. Because people throw them around like that, and the truth is (for better AND worse) that they arent ANYTHING (not 8.5 OR 9.4) until the CGC slab says they are.

 

This is the fundamental problem I have with CGC. Or maybe CGC purists. An 8.5 (or VF+) comic is 8.5, regardless if CGC says it is. They don't have a monopoly on grading comics. People were grading comics long before CGC came along. It's nice to have an objective 3rd party give your comic a grade, to avoid disputes. But if I know how to grade according to Overstreet's Grading Guide (the best documented grading standard available), I should be able to identify the comic's grade accurately without CGC's opinion.

[Mr. Zipper]

I just love my raw 8.5 - 9.4 X-Men and ASMs. I get 'em for 1/4 of what the slabbed copies are going for.

 

I dont disagree with what you say.... but how do you "KNOW" the grades on the books if they arent slabbed? Reading that statement makes me think maybe CGC should have trademarked those grade expressions. Because people throw them around like that, and the truth is (for better AND worse) that they arent ANYTHING (not 8.5 OR 9.4) until the CGC slab says they are

 

I wasn't aware that CGC was the sole and only arbiter of grades, i.e., nothing counts until it's graded by them.

 

In my collection, the grades are what I say they are... and I'm confident my grading is consistant with CGC up to 9.4. Over that, it's anyone's guess....

 

BTW, many of the raw books I buy on ebay come from fellow board members. So, if they sell it as VF/NM, and I agree with the grade, it's a VF/NM... I don't need CGC to confirm it.

 

[FFB]

Here is some visible proof that the raw, high grade market is not suffering (some of these are Richard Koos/Comic Keys auctions -- I don't want to stir up that can of worms again, I just want to use his auctions as an example of high grade books with big scans that go for more than guide):

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2222389784&category=32739&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBDW%3AIT&rd=1

(Raw Amazing Spider-Man #100 at "9.6" sells for $150 over NM 9.4 guide!)

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2222395248&category=33819&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBDW%3AIT&rd=1

(This raw "9.2" Amazing Spider-Man #129 went for more than several other CGC GRADED 9.2s in the last month!)

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2222240345&category=3983&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBBI%3AIT&rd=1

(Daredevil #168 in supposedly "9.8 or 9.9" condition is at 3X NM 9.4 guide with time left on the auction)

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33816&item=2222340830

(An unslabbed "9.4" with a color breaking corner crease, and with 3 days to go it's almost at Overstreet's NM 9.4 price)

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2223323203&category=35761

(Werewolf by Night #1 raw NM 9.4 is over Overstreet NM 9.4 guide with 3 hours to go)

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2223756651&category=32729

(Captain America #117 in raw 9.4 is up to $57 with four days left in the auction)

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2219928257&category=32739

(Raw Amazing Spider-Man #121 in NM 9.6 goes for almost 3X NM Overstreet Guide.)

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2219928278&category=33819

Raw Amazing Spider-Man #135 in NM 9.6 goes for over 3X NM 9.4 Overstreet Guide.)

 

I could go on and on. The point is, CGC hasn't killed or even harmed the high-grade unslabbed market. The premiums that the high grade slabbed books are getting is actually helping the high grade unslabbed market, and people are forking over MORE money than they were before as long as they can see from a big scan that a book is in great shape. The mid-grade and low-grade Silver/Bronze/Modern Age markets, on the other hand, have been impacted by the premiums being obtained by high grade books, but this should be expected, especially for silver age and bronze age books. Mid- and low-grade silver, bronze, and modern age books are so plentiful that it's downright easy to find just about any of these books, if condition is not a factor. That's why you are not seeing the same upward price movement on these books as you are on the high grade stuff. It's too plentiful in the lower grades.

 

For Golden Age books, high grade books are obviously also commanding premiums, but because there are relatively fewer mid- and low-grade copies, there may be more interest in the mid- and low-grade stuff, although the high grade stuff continues to command a premium.

 

The thing about CGC is that if you want to submit books 1) you have to join the CCS or 2) you have to find a dealer(hopefully your LCS) than can submit the books for you, as these are the only two ways that I know of personally to have your private collection graded, or parts of it. So, maybe the collectors "in the know" realize this, and look only for CGC books on the 'bay. I still do not like the fact that the "raw" market is suffering due to grading companies, even though I submit books myself, due to the fact that the back issue raw market is the backbone and cornerstone of the hobby/business we all enjoy. I will say this in accordance to Sincere Comics thoughts, if and when are "raw" books become obsolete because they are not slabbed, and the OS price guide "means nothing"-well you can forget the "crash" theory because the art/hobby/business will be gone forever, and it will be our own faults-pure and simple, because if we all on this board become so mistrustful of others in world of comicdom that #1 CGC and the like will have established a monopoly(which is never a good thing), and the "raw" book and the OS price guide for which this whole beautiful thing has been built on will colapse all together-so through the "crash" out the window and bring on the "comic apocalypse" which will be the end of it all.

[FFB]

My worst investment in comic books happened when I was 9 years old. I traded a mint, full run of 1977 and 1978 Topps baseball cards for six or seven comic books that (unbeknownst to me at the time) were in about VG condition on average. I don't remember all of what was in there, but the best books were: Avengers #56 in VG, Legion of Super-Heroes #2 in G/VG, and Journey Into Mystery (the crappy second series, not the early good stuff) #3 in VG.

 

The Eddie Murray rookie card alone from the 1978 set wound up being worth more than all of the comics by a factor of about 10.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2785391204&category=23836

 

Then there's the Andre Dawson rookie card from the 1977 set.

 

But to be perfectly honest with you, I had so much more fun reading those half dozen books than I did looking at the box of baseball cards, that it was worth it to me. A bad investment money-wise, but a lot more fun to "play" with.

 

Quick Points:

 

My worst investments in comic books were:

 

1) Key books that ended up have undisclosed restoration

2) High grade pedigree books that were flat out overgraded.

 

Pretty much for the past 15 years, book in Very Fine of less condition RARELY EVER sold for full guide price unless it truly was either #1.

 

Hence the need for books that are worth a lot of money to be CGC'd.

 

[Aman619]

yes, you are absolutely correct: the grades YOU give them are exactly right on.

As long as they stay in your collection.

 

And your grading may be exactly on point with CGCs grading...but your books arent 9.4s (to the majority of collectors nowadays) because YOU say so... CGC has to agree. As long as they stay in your collection - -they are what you say they are.

 

AGAIN - - this is not what I want, or think makes sense, or is right. It is the way it is. If you do not get CGCs opinion, you just limit your audience for sales to those who feel as you do. ... leaving out a large amount of other collectors who are "drinking the Kool Aid".

 

Most of the posters here on the boards are going along with the CGC era. and aside from the restoration checks (which everyone agrees is a good thing, Im guessing that most here werent 100% behing CGC when they started..but have adjusted..

[jbud73]

OK first of all throw those comic keys examples out the window, as they might serve a better purpose as street garbage thatn as an example for any comic discussion unless its how to restore and sell unresotred on Ebay.

 

Jscomics is a very good seller of raw stuff.... and hes an exception to the rule, cause they are few and far between.

 

 

[Rickdogg]

I pay multiples of guide for a nice solid raw book if I can see a large scan of it. Many sellers on ebay overgrade severely and usually provide crappy scans at best and of course do not respond to scan requests via email.