The Golden Age (for buying Copper 9.8s, anyways)

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've posted this in part before in other places, but I thought I'd make a post here to really focus my thoughts on this topic.

 

People love the best. Whether it's the best car, or the best house, or the best score on Donkey Kong, or the best condition comic book. People are naturally attracted to "the best that exists" and will, in nearly every instance, choose the best when all other factors are equal.

 

When collecting comics began in earnest, roughly at the start of the 1960's, there was no internet, there was no Direct Distribution system, there were no comic stores of any sort of significance. There weren't really even any conventions dedicated solely to buying and selling comic books. For the generation prior to this (1933-1960), comic books were considered, by nearly everyone in America, the epitome of disposable entertainment.

 

Buyers of comics, therefore, really had very little in the way of a network through which to buy copies of books they knew existed, but had no way to obtain, outside of random encounters in used book/antique stores. They had to be content, then, when they did find a copy, with whatever condition it was in. There weren't dozens and hundreds of copies to pick from; just a copy was all they had, if they were lucky. So those early collectors weren't too concerned with condition, other than "not falling to pieces."

 

When the first conventions began in the early 60's, and the first fanzines, with their hand-written ads for back issues, began to appear, collectors had, for the first time, a choice in conditions...albeit a limited one. By the time the first Overstreet Price Guide appeared in 1970, three different "grades" were established (at least, for collectors...dealers at the time weren't too keen on the idea of someone else telling them how much the comics they were selling were supposed to be "worth." ) "Good", "Fine", and "Mint" became the grading system for the next two decades, and as collectors (and dealers, and the entire industry) became more sophisticated, the gap between values became greater and greater.

 

By the 1990's, it was clear that "Good" "Fine" and "Mint" were no longer cutting it, and it also became clear that dealers everywhere were blurring the lines in their favor because buyers wanted the best possible condition...and with the invention of the internet and eBay, the explosion of the comics market in the eary 90's, and the prevalence of high powered conventions across the nation, and indeed the world, buyers had more choices than ever to buy books in the very best condition possible, and there developed a small, but dedicated, core of collectors who ignored any books from about 1965-up with any flaws at all....and conversely, offered "enormous" sums (2-3-5-10x then-current OPG) for genuinely flawless copies of books from all ages.

 

But, for the most part, only those who could travel could really obtain these books, because these collectors were forced to inspect the books themselves prior to purchase. It seemed impossible, regardless of the amount of money being offered, for the majority of catalog and online dealers to be made to understand that "flawless" really MEANT "no flaws." This made the situation very expensive, and pretty much out of the reach of all but the most well-heeled collector.

 

Enter CGC in 2000 (ok, 1999 for you purists out there.)

 

We all know that CGC changed the game when it came to buying ultra high grade (9.6 and higher; 9.8 post 1975) books. Instead of having to inspect books in person, and frequently having to deal with heavy sighs and looks of disdain by dealers who (even to this day) could never understand why some collectors always seemed to pore over every book they had, buyers could now simply buy a CGC graded book, and know that the book was a great deal likelier to actually match their definition of "ultra high grade." Whereas, prior to CGC, a buyer who did not inspect a book in person prior to purchasing (either through catalogs or over the internet) was likely to get a book that would grade somewhere betweena Very Good and NM/M, often averaging in the VF range, now buyers could buy a "9.8"...and actually have a book that, 996 times out of 1,000, had nearly zero flaws.

 

Now, those books that those dealers were selling (and continue to sell to this day) in "mint" and "NM/M" condition were actually being graded at 6.5...7.5...9.0...and rightfully so, as the vast, vast majority of books sold by almost everyone over the last 40 years has been overgraded. Such is human nature. But since 2000, all of that became a thing of the past for the collector who truly wanted the best possible condition of the books they collected.

 

But there was a catch (isn't there always?)

 

Not that many books had been graded. So, buyers who wanted ultra high grade books either had to compete heavily for them, and usually pay many times guide, across the ages, or they had to submit them themselves. Self submission is a laborious, arduous task, usually requiring months to years (as anyone looking for a Sandman [1989] run can tell you) to complete, with the necessity of combing through hundreds, if not thousands, of copies simply to find 9.8 quality books to submit. What was saved in actual dollars was more than spent in time involved.

 

And now, collectors need uniformity. It's not enough to have "ultra high grade" if some of those books are 9.6s, and some of them are 9.8s (and, gasp!, even 9.4s!)

 

So, the hunt for 9.8s began in earnest.

 

Even today, after 10 years of slabs, prior to about 1975, 9.8s are still freaks and rarities, and not something that can be collected by more than a handful of people...very wealthy people...at best. It is currently impossible to obtain a CERTIFIED 9.8 run of just about any title originating in the 1960's, up to about 1972, with very few exceptions. But, starting in 1975 or thereabouts, with the beginning of hoarding on a mass scale, and with the emerging emphasis on condition in the marketplace, copies in what-would-become 9.8 were, either by chance or design, being saved from destruction, waiting 25 years or more to finally come to rest inside a 9.8 CGC slab.

 

Starting in about 2004, with the market finally giving full approval and acceptance of CGC, and after many thousands of Gold and Silver books were slabbed, dealers and collectors began to turn their attention to Bronze and Copper books. Prices for these books in 2002-2004 were very low, because there were not only few books from the era slabbed, there were even fewer buyers for this era. It's not uncommon to see books that had one copy on the census (Star Wars #16, for example) sold for less than $50. By 2006-2007 however, the market saw tremendous gains in the prices for 9.8 copies of these books, as collectors noticed how rare these books were, and how few copies there were on the census.

 

Unfortunately, as with any market, the supply caught up to the demand. Coupled with the economic woes that began in 2008, the burgeoning supply of copies by energetic dealers eager to make a profit caused census numbers to soar and prices to plummet. Prices for these books, from all time highs in 2007-2008, fell precipitously, and the more copies showed up, the faster the plummet took place.

 

There then came the backlash, as collectors who had previously paid $3,000 (or more) for 9.8 Copper keys were faced with the disheartening fact that the books they had purchased were now selling for a small fraction of what they'd paid for them...so they responded by closing their wallets and refusing to participate until the market, at the very least, leveled out.

 

Which leads us to the situation facing us in the early summer of 2010. Post-1975 books, with very few exceptions, continue to plummet in value, even the keys, as the economy and increasing supply take their tolls, are not immune.

 

But here's the good news: Now, for the first time since CGC began, buyers on a grand scale can now purchase and own entire runs of books post-1975 in the very best collectible grade possible (9.9s and 10s are still freaks and curios, and no complete run outside of perhaps a two issue mini series, and the Wolverine Limited Series, is available in those grades) for little over the cost of slabbing itself!

 

A 9.8 is, after all, a nearly flawless book. It usually has, at most, a tiny handful of non-color breaking stress marks, or maybe a tiny thumb dent or two. It has no creases, no bends, no folds, no stains, no marks, and is generally about the nicest looking copy of any particular book anyone is likely to find. Even if there are dozens to hundreds (or, in the case of Spiderman #1 [1990] or Wolverine Limited #1, 1,000+) in 9.8, there are still generally going to be only a handful of people who will be able to own copies in this condition of any particular book.

 

We who collect them have been spoiled in recent years, but the reality is, 9.8s...even for a book that came out last week...are remarkable condition books. They represent the best of the best, and are almost universally a sight to behold.

 

Because the supply has rendered all but the most keys books not worth being slabbed, the supply will inevitably dry up (and no one but the richest folks, with money to burn, an afford to slab at a loss forever), so once they're sold, they're not likely to show up again anytime soon, especially for books where the census is less than 50 or so copies.

 

Now, that's not to say there aren't pitfalls. There are just as many ugly, miscut, faded ink, slab damaged, weak graded Coppers out there as there are any other age; perhaps moreso. It's important to still look for quality inside the slab.

 

That said, when you see these books for $50 (shipped) or less...any book, but especially respected keys, like Aliens #1, and Dark Horse Presents #24...buy them. Especially if they are $30 or less, as this is essentially the cost of "doing it yourself." Do not hold out hope that you will be able to obtain them for much cheaper, further on down the line. The supply is not endless, especially when it's done at a loss. Enjoy that you can buy so many for so little now, because there will come a day....either because the market explodes, or because they're simply not worth slabbing by anyone....when these things will be unobtainable at the prices we enjoy today.

 

For the time and effort (and money) it used to take to find comparable 9.8 potential copies of these books in the 1990's, it is staggering the difference CGC has made on the marketplace for the collector of ultra high grade books.

 

If you're a collector of late Bronze, Copper, and Modern books in the highest grades...this truly is a Golden Age for you.

 

[Hammerhead]

(thumbs u Nicely put!!

[ckp1680]

Great post (thumbs u

 

I for one am having a great time finding all of the copper issues that I missed the first time around. It doesn't hurt that you don't have to pay nosebleed prices for them at this point in time

[oakman29]

Great post RMA

[thebends1996-migration]

Excellent reading.

[Billy Galaxy]

eloquently stated

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

But, for the most part, only those who could travel could really obtain these books, because these collectors were forced to inspect the books themselves prior to purchase. It seemed impossible, regardless of the amount of money being offered, for the majority of catalog and online dealers to be made to understand that "flawless" really MEANT "no flaws." This made the situation very expensive, and pretty much out of the reach of all but the most well-heeled collector.

 

I thought this important enough to break out, as it simply cannot be overstated. In an era where Hulk #181 was a $400 book in "NM", and X-Men #94 wasn't too far behind, you had people offering $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 and beyond for PERFECT copies....and try as they might, with $$$$ floating in front of their eyes, most dealers simply could not understand what the words "NO WEAR" meant. They simply could not grasp the concept. So, they'd trot out what would now be graded 8.5s, 9.0s, 9.2s, with color breaking spine stress, dents, dings, small creases, rounded corners...and then get pissy when buyers turned them down. More than one dealer did this, and more than one dealer got hostile with customers because of it.

 

Well, of course, we know why now. Those books that would become 9.8s existed in quantities you could count in the dozens, with some of them less than the fingers on your hands. And that, of course, was worldwide.

 

I can think of maybe 2-3 dealers nationwide who understood what "mint" condition actually was, Keith Contarino being one of them. The rest of them, from Koch to Carbonaro to Chuckles to even Gary Dolgoff, on down, either couldn't, or simply didn't want to be bothered.

 

And, frankly, I wouldn't have blamed them for the latter. If I had these books in 9.8 potential, I wouldn't have sold them. A flawless Hulk #181? No problem. $5,000 please.

 

 

[Agent 007]

Very good. I still come by dealers at shows or LCS when I travel that try to sell RAW books at CGC prices. I always smile and walk away. Some people still tell me CGC is a scam.

[Marvelfangirl]

Great post RMA

[kdoginohio]

I've posted this in part before in other places, but I thought I'd make a post here to really focus my thoughts on this topic.

 

People love the best. Whether it's the best car, or the best house, or the best score on Donkey Kong, or the best condition comic book. People are naturally attracted to "the best that exists" and will, in nearly every instance, choose the best when all other factors are equal.

 

When collecting comics began in earnest, roughly at the start of the 1960's, there was no internet, there was no Direct Distribution system, there were no comic stores of any sort of significance. There weren't really even any conventions dedicated solely to buying and selling comic books. For the generation prior to this (1933-1960), comic books were considered, by nearly everyone in America, the epitome of disposable entertainment.

 

Buyers of comics, therefore, really had very little in the way of a network through which to buy copies of books they knew existed, but had no way to obtain, outside of random encounters in used book/antique stores. They had to be content, then, when they did find a copy, with whatever condition it was in. There weren't dozens and hundreds of copies to pick from; just a copy was all they had, if they were lucky. So those early collectors weren't too concerned with condition, other than "not falling to pieces."

 

When the first conventions began in the early 60's, and the first fanzines, with their hand-written ads for back issues, began to appear, collectors had, for the first time, a choice in conditions...albeit a limited one. By the time the first Overstreet Price Guide appeared in 1970, three different "grades" were established (at least, for collectors...dealers at the time weren't too keen on the idea of someone else telling them how much the comics they were selling were supposed to be "worth." ) "Good", "Fine", and "Mint" became the grading system for the next two decades, and as collectors (and dealers, and the entire industry) became more sophisticated, the gap between values became greater and greater.

 

By the 1990's, it was clear that "Good" "Fine" and "Mint" were no longer cutting it, and it also became clear that dealers everywhere were blurring the lines in their favor because buyers wanted the best possible condition...and with the invention of the internet and eBay, the explosion of the comics market in the eary 90's, and the prevalence of high powered conventions across the nation, and indeed the world, buyers had more choices than ever to buy books in the very best condition possible, and there developed a small, but dedicated, core of collectors who ignored any books from about 1965-up with any flaws at all....and conversely, offered "enormous" sums (2-3-5-10x then-current OPG) for genuinely flawless copies of books from all ages.

 

But, for the most part, only those who could travel could really obtain these books, because these collectors were forced to inspect the books themselves prior to purchase. It seemed impossible, regardless of the amount of money being offered, for the majority of catalog and online dealers to be made to understand that "flawless" really MEANT "no flaws." This made the situation very expensive, and pretty much out of the reach of all but the most well-heeled collector.

 

Enter CGC in 2000 (ok, 1999 for you purists out there.)

 

We all know that CGC changed the game when it came to buying ultra high grade (9.6 and higher; 9.8 post 1975) books. Instead of having to inspect books in person, and frequently having to deal with heavy sighs and looks of disdain by dealers who (even to this day) could never understand why some collectors always seemed to pore over every book they had, buyers could now simply buy a CGC graded book, and know that the book was a great deal likelier to actually match their definition of "ultra high grade." Whereas, prior to CGC, a buyer who did not inspect a book in person prior to purchasing (either through catalogs or over the internet) was likely to get a book that would grade somewhere betweena Very Good and NM/M, often averaging in the VF range, now buyers could buy a "9.8"...and actually have a book that, 996 times out of 1,000, had nearly zero flaws.

 

Now, those books that those dealers were selling (and continue to sell to this day) in "mint" and "NM/M" condition were actually being graded at 6.5...7.5...9.0...and rightfully so, as the vast, vast majority of books sold by almost everyone over the last 40 years has been overgraded. Such is human nature. But since 2000, all of that became a thing of the past for the collector who truly wanted the best possible condition of the books they collected.

 

But there was a catch (isn't there always?)

 

Not that many books had been graded. So, buyers who wanted ultra high grade books either had to compete heavily for them, and usually pay many times guide, across the ages, or they had to submit them themselves. Self submission is a laborious, arduous task, usually requiring months to years (as anyone looking for a Sandman [1989] run can tell you) to complete, with the necessity of combing through hundreds, if not thousands, of copies simply to find 9.8 quality books to submit. What was saved in actual dollars was more than spent in time involved.

 

And now, collectors need uniformity. It's not enough to have "ultra high grade" if some of those books are 9.6s, and some of them are 9.8s (and, gasp!, even 9.4s!)

 

So, the hunt for 9.8s began in earnest.

 

Even today, after 10 years of slabs, prior to about 1975, 9.8s are still freaks and rarities, and not something that can be collected by more than a handful of people...very wealthy people...at best. It is currently impossible to obtain a CERTIFIED 9.8 run of just about any title originating in the 1960's, up to about 1972, with very few exceptions. But, starting in 1975 or thereabouts, with the beginning of hoarding on a mass scale, and with the emerging emphasis on condition in the marketplace, copies in what-would-become 9.8 were, either by chance or design, being saved from destruction, waiting 25 years or more to finally come to rest inside a 9.8 CGC slab.

 

Starting in about 2004, with the market finally giving full approval and acceptance of CGC, and after many thousands of Gold and Silver books were slabbed, dealers and collectors began to turn their attention to Bronze and Copper books. Prices for these books in 2002-2004 were very low, because there were not only few books from the era slabbed, there were even fewer buyers for this era. It's not uncommon to see books that had one copy on the census (Star Wars #16, for example) sold for less than $50. By 2006-2007 however, the market saw tremendous gains in the prices for 9.8 copies of these books, as collectors noticed how rare these books were, and how few copies there were on the census.

 

Unfortunately, as with any market, the supply caught up to the demand. Coupled with the economic woes that began in 2008, the burgeoning supply of copies by energetic dealers eager to make a profit caused census numbers to soar and prices to plummet. Prices for these books, from all time highs in 2007-2008, fell precipitously, and the more copies showed up, the faster the plummet took place.

 

There then came the backlash, as collectors who had previously paid $3,000 (or more) for 9.8 Copper keys were faced with the disheartening fact that the books they had purchased were now selling for a small fraction of what they'd paid for them...so they responded by closing their wallets and refusing to participate until the market, at the very least, leveled out.

 

Which leads us to the situation facing us in the early summer of 2010. Post-1975 books, with very few exceptions, continue to plummet in value, even the keys, as the economy and increasing supply take their tolls, are not immune.

 

But here's the good news: Now, for the first time since CGC began, buyers on a grand scale can now purchase and own entire runs of books post-1975 in the very best collectible grade possible (9.9s and 10s are still freaks and curios, and no complete run outside of perhaps a two issue mini series, and the Wolverine Limited Series, is available in those grades) for little over the cost of slabbing itself!

 

A 9.8 is, after all, a nearly flawless book. It usually has, at most, a tiny handful of non-color breaking stress marks, or maybe a tiny thumb dent or two. It has no creases, no bends, no folds, no stains, no marks, and is generally about the nicest looking copy of any particular book anyone is likely to find. Even if there are dozens to hundreds (or, in the case of Spiderman #1 [1990] or Wolverine Limited #1, 1,000+) in 9.8, there are still generally going to be only a handful of people who will be able to own copies in this condition of any particular book.

 

We who collect them have been spoiled in recent years, but the reality is, 9.8s...even for a book that came out last week...are remarkable condition books. They represent the best of the best, and are almost universally a sight to behold.

 

Because the supply has rendered all but the most keys books not worth being slabbed, the supply will inevitably dry up (and no one but the richest folks, with money to burn, an afford to slab at a loss forever), so once they're sold, they're not likely to show up again anytime soon, especially for books where the census is less than 50 or so copies.

 

Now, that's not to say there aren't pitfalls. There are just as many ugly, miscut, faded ink, slab damaged, weak graded Coppers out there as there are any other age; perhaps moreso. It's important to still look for quality inside the slab.

 

That said, when you see these books for $50 (shipped) or less...any book, but especially respected keys, like Aliens #1, and Dark Horse Presents #24...buy them. Especially if they are $30 or less, as this is essentially the cost of "doing it yourself." Do not hold out hope that you will be able to obtain them for much cheaper, further on down the line. The supply is not endless, especially when it's done at a loss. Enjoy that you can buy so many for so little now, because there will come a day....either because the market explodes, or because they're simply not worth slabbing by anyone....when these things will be unobtainable at the prices we enjoy today.

 

For the time and effort (and money) it used to take to find comparable 9.8 potential copies of these books in the 1990's, it is staggering the difference CGC has made on the marketplace for the collector of ultra high grade books.

 

If you're a collector of late Bronze, Copper, and Modern books in the highest grades...this truly is a Golden Age for you.

 

[Mr 9.8]

Some people still tell me CGC is a scam.

Yet it's those same people who will more then gladly charge CGC 9.8 prices every time for their raw garbage.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Wuss. That post wouldn't even be enough to fill the last page article in Time.

[FlyingDonut]

Can the price come down on this book, please?

[seanfingh]

Can the price come down on this book, please?

 

That is an awesome bronze book.

[Gatsby77]

But why? That's my favorite Hex book ever. Every issue deserves to be cracked and read. _So_ good.

 

The evolution of grading is key here. I recall Chuck's notorious grade of the 1980s "Fine/NM"--the perfect sort of grading arbitrage that would allow him to buy low ("these are Fine") and sell high ("Mint").

 

I also recall being horrified when the first Overstreets Grading Guide came out and only about 3% of my collection rated legitimately 99/Mint by its standard. Workers at my local comic shop were horrified. Which was fine, in a way, because it did away with the fiction of "Pristine Mint"--and NM was always better served as 90-92 anyway.

 

The problem is with such a small percentage of 1968-present books graded, it will still be another 15-20 years before we get a true representative sample of what's readily-available in 9.6-9.8 vs. scarce.

[500Club]

Even today, after 10 years of slabs, prior to about 1975, 9.8s are still freaks and rarities, and not something that can be collected by more than a handful of people...very wealthy people...at best. It is currently impossible to obtain a CERTIFIED 9.8 run of just about any title originating in the 1960's, up to about 1972, with very few exceptions. But, starting in 1975 or thereabouts, with the beginning of hoarding on a mass scale, and with the emerging emphasis on condition in the marketplace, copies in what-would-become 9.8 were, either by chance or design, being saved from destruction, waiting 25 years or more to finally come to rest inside a 9.8 CGC slab.

 

 

 

A 9.8 is, after all, a nearly flawless book. It usually has, at most, a tiny handful of non-color breaking stress marks, or maybe a tiny thumb dent or two. It has no creases, no bends, no folds, no stains, no marks, and is generally about the nicest looking copy of any particular book anyone is likely to find. Even if there are dozens to hundreds (or, in the case of Spiderman #1 [1990] or Wolverine Limited #1, 1,000+) in 9.8, there are still generally going to be only a handful of people who will be able to own copies in this condition of any particular book.

 

We who collect them have been spoiled in recent years, but the reality is, 9.8s...even for a book that came out last week...are remarkable condition books. They represent the best of the best, and are almost universally a sight to behold.

 

 

If you're a collector of late Bronze, Copper, and Modern books in the highest grades...this truly is a Golden Age for you.

 

 

Sorry to trim the mega post.

 

I completely agree. 9.8s have seemingly become mundane, but it really is a remarkable thing for them to have escaped printer damage, bindery error, distribution twine, spinner rack kinks, back issue bin mauling, dealer stock scuffing, heavy thumbed comic store clerks, and general time related depreciation.

[Boozad]

To hear that price points of Copper 9.8s are still coming down is music to my ears. Maybe I'll be able to get those Bats 9.8s I want now for a more realistic price.

 

#429 9.8 for $50 was a nice start

[RockMyAmadeus]

Can the price come down on this book, please?

 

That is an awesome bronze book.

 

That's your entire contribution to this thread...?

 

I wrote this damn article for you.

 

[seanfingh]

 

I thought you were jockeying for the 1st five pages of next years Overstreet.

 

PS: The Copper Forum is popping lately and I LOVE it!!!

[RockMyAmadeus]

I thought you were jockeying for the 1st five pages of next years Overstreet.

 

 

PS: The Copper Forum is popping lately and I LOVE it!!!

 

<---extra butter.