Time to Stir the pot... Overstreet grading vs CGC grading

[RockMyAmadeus]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

 

That can't be true. After all, everyone knows the inner well exerts no pressure at all on the books...right...?

 

Right....?

 

[rodan57]

I've popped enough books out of their slabs to realize that the slab DOES make the book look better.

 

This is sort of off topic from the issue of movement or non-movement in the slab, but I feel that nothing makes a book look better than mylar.

 

Slabs visually grey the book. Put a piece of white paper under a slab and look at it through the slab and you can see what I mean. Look at a slab under florescent light (which tends to grey the visible spectrum) and you really get a distorted greying of the whites of the book.

[Mr. Zipper]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

 

It may be true that the inner well holds a book flat and can give the book an appearance of being flatter and tighter than it really is... but I don't think it's actually performing the same thing as a true "press job." A book coming out of the confines of the inner well will immediately return to its previous form if it has bends.

 

Also, the outer case does a good job of obscuring the spine and associated flaws. Many "under-graded" books have come out of the case to find rusty staples or spine rubs.

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

One more thing.....OSPG grading, when applied objectively, is actually quite stringent.....it's just that a great number of those who claim to use Overstreet standards usually DON'T.....especially in VF and better. A strict OSPG 8.0 will be a VERY nice book.....what is typically offered on the internet as a 9.0 or 9.2.....just keep that in mind. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

This needs repeating...absolutely spot-on, Jimbo.

 

Truth is, old school OS is stricter than CGC and I suppose my standards are a hybrid of OS OS plus the few curves that CGC have sent our way, mainly relating to NCB defects.

 

For example, OS has certain cut off points for certain defects...water damage of any description, sub creases, small pieces missing, popped staples...that are either ignored by CGC (I got a popped staple on a 5.5 once ), or thrown into the cop-out grade...Qualified.

[Bomber-Bob]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

 

It may be true that the inner well holds a book flat and can give the book an appearance of being flatter and tighter than it really is... but I don't think it's actually performing the same thing as a true "press job." A book coming out of the confines of the inner well will immediately return to its previous form if it has bends.

 

 

I agree, I never meant to say the slab actually/permanently presses out the flaws, the effect is only while in the slab. If cracked open the book indeed returns to it's previous form.

[Mr. Zipper]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

 

It may be true that the inner well holds a book flat and can give the book an appearance of being flatter and tighter than it really is... but I don't think it's actually performing the same thing as a true "press job." A book coming out of the confines of the inner well will immediately return to its previous form if it has bends.

 

 

I agree, I never meant to say the slab actually/permanently presses out the flaws, the effect is only while in the slab. If cracked open the book indeed returns to it's previous form.

 

 

I didn't think you did... but I think a few people may have interpreted it that way.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

 

It may be true that the inner well holds a book flat and can give the book an appearance of being flatter and tighter than it really is... but I don't think it's actually performing the same thing as a true "press job." A book coming out of the confines of the inner well will immediately return to its previous form if it has bends.

 

 

I agree, I never meant to say the slab actually/permanently presses out the flaws, the effect is only while in the slab. If cracked open the book indeed returns to it's previous form.

 

 

I didn't think you did... but I think a few people may have interpreted it that way.

 

I think some people haven't ever seen ALL the different types of inner wells CGC uses....

 

[WEBHEAD]

Thanks to everyone this has been a back and forth thread for sure. I wonder it there anyone out there who would be willing to take on the following task.

 

Just like the Overstreet Grading Books up to at least the 3rd edtion to my count, who could show us a 10-.5 and provide simular documentation. Maybe finally we might finally get to the truth

 

 

WEBHEAD

[WEBHEAD]

I'll start with one of my favorites.

 

6.5

 

Overstreet

 

"An above average copy that shows minor wear but is still relatiely flat and clean with no signigicant creasing or other series defects. Eye appeal is somewhat reduced because of surface wear and the accumulation of small defectrs especially on the spine and the edges. This book will look like it's been read a few times and handled with moderate wear"

 

Bindery- "Some accumulation of minor defects"

 

(None that I can find spine seems to have little or no stress marks)

 

Cover-" Minor wear, Inks can show reduction, Blunted corners are common, soiling, foxing"

 

 

(Nope)

 

 

Staples- "Can be discolored, few stress line"

 

Paper- "Tan to Brown"

 

 

 

I called CGC No notes available ....considering the investment reduction I was shocked.

 

 

I had an incomplete 8.0 to compare to it before I sold the 8.0 it looked dead on, should have been a 7 or 7.5.

 

 

WEBHEAD

 

 

[Bosco685]

I called CGC No notes available ....considering the investment reduction I was shocked.

How could CGC have no graders' notes on a book they graded?

 

I would think this is the norm for Bronze Age and older.

[WEBHEAD]

I asked for them and at the time was told no notes, but I could bring the book to a Con and have them look at it again. As much as I love CGC books, all Silver and less should have notes available and those notes should be sent back with the books so the owner can dispute or show documentation why the book graded so low.

 

 

 

Personally I thnk this was a Friday book late Friday someone wanted to get home early

 

 

 

WEBHEAD

[Mark 1]

I think you need to accept the grade you get from CGC or don't send more books to them.

 

The fact is that CGC legitimizes these books as true collectibles and allows for value to be assessed based on the impartial grading we ALL get. This isn't some conspiracy against you or some other person (not saying you feel it's a conspiracy) but the bottom line is that everyone who sends in a book to CGC takes a risk that the grade will come back lower than expected.

 

It might come back higher...that's the risk you take.

 

I have become a believer in CGC graded books for KEY issues. Too much restoration and stuff happen with the older key books and it provides piece of mind to know the book is solid and not a rip off.

 

I personally think it;s crazy to have modern books graded by CGC to get a 9.4 or 9.6 and cry when you don't get a 9.8...what are we talking about anyway? These books are mass produced and these false prices for the "highest graded" of a book made in 2009 is a bit much.

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I called CGC No notes available ....considering the investment reduction I was shocked.

How could CGC have no graders' notes on a book they graded?

 

I would think this is the norm for Bronze Age and older.

 

I believe it is now CGC tier related, only standard and above get notes. Not sure exactly when this started but it is recent. I had an early BA submitted under the Economy tier and was told there are no notes.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think you need to accept the grade you get from CGC or don't send more books to them.

 

The fact is that CGC legitimizes these books as true collectibles and allows for value to be assessed based on the impartial grading we ALL get. This isn't some conspiracy against you or some other person (not saying you feel it's a conspiracy) but the bottom line is that everyone who sends in a book to CGC takes a risk that the grade will come back lower than expected.

 

It might come back higher...that's the risk you take.

 

I have become a believer in CGC graded books for KEY issues. Too much restoration and stuff happen with the older key books and it provides piece of mind to know the book is solid and not a rip off.

 

I personally think it;s crazy to have modern books graded by CGC to get a 9.4 or 9.6 and cry when you don't get a 9.8...what are we talking about anyway? These books are mass produced and these false prices for the "highest graded" of a book made in 2009 is a bit much.

 

(thumbs u

 

No book I have ever subbed has ever come back more than 1/2 a grade off (that is, 9.4 rather than 9.8) what I thought it would.

 

Well...except for a mid grade Kid Colt #209 30 cent variant, but that was a tough one.

 

Several books that failed a 9.8 prescreen the first time, made it through the second time.

 

Moral? If you know how to grade, the odds of you being more than 1/2 a grade off of CGC are slim.

 

Out of curiosity, though, what piece of mind did CGC actually provide, and was it sent in formaldehyde...?

[Bomber-Bob]

As much as I love CGC books, all Silver and less should have notes available and those notes should be sent back with the books so the owner can dispute or show documentation why the book graded so low.

WEBHEAD

 

The whole concept of CGC, the grading and encapsulating of books, is obviously labor intensive. While I would love to have grader's notes more accesible I can understand why CGC doesn't do it. They are probably just scribbled notes. To make them presentable and coherent to be sent back with the book, as you suggest, would just add to the labor. I would also think any formal written documentation would be a legal liability. I consider the grader's notes as more of a courtesy and not an obligation on CGC's part.

 

[Racer-X]

I respectfully disagree with this. I think note-taking and giving is an obligation on their part. We pay to have them grade our books, so they should provide their explanations. When you get an inspection on a house, you get a full, detailed report, not just "ceiling in fair shape." All of the books I've sent have gotten notes (and I do wish they'd send them back with the books or post them on-line for members), but most of the time the notes don't say where a chip is or a color touch is. This is especially important when I buy a book that's been cracked out of the case but comes with the supposed CGC label.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I respectfully disagree with this. I think note-taking and giving is an obligation on their part. We pay to have them grade our books, so they should provide their explanations. When you get an inspection on a house, you get a full, detailed report, not just "ceiling in fair shape." All of the books I've sent have gotten notes (and I do wish they'd send them back with the books or post them on-line for members), but most of the time the notes don't say where a chip is or a color touch is. This is especially important when I buy a book that's been cracked out of the case but comes with the supposed CGC label.

 

I agree with your comment about the lack of location of the defect. This is especially irritating on resto issues like color touch. Perhaps CGC should consider

sending detailed grader's notes on restored books specific to the restoration.

While I like your house inspection analogy and want to agree with you, I just can't see CGC listing every flaw on a 4.0 book. Turnaround time, which we already complain about, would be even worse.

[WEBHEAD]

I respectfully disagree with this. I think note-taking and giving is an obligation on their part. We pay to have them grade our books, so they should provide their explanations. When you get an inspection on a house, you get a full, detailed report, not just "ceiling in fair shape." All of the books I've sent have gotten notes (and I do wish they'd send them back with the books or post them on-line for members), but most of the time the notes don't say where a chip is or a color touch is. This is especially important when I buy a book that's been cracked out of the case but comes with the supposed CGC label.

 

 

I agree, help me if I'm wrong there are 3 steps pregrader, grader, restoration check? and final grader who looks at the first 2 grades?

 

Seems to me that every book is graded via a computer generated program with my guess is a group of check offs to determine where it stands. I'd find it really unbelivable it this was done on a hand written check off..

 

I'd rather they extend the time that the book is kept and provide me the notes to back up the grade.

 

As for the grade to stand up legally, it would if each book was graded by the same set of standards. With "X" number of graders do they all use the same technique?

 

 

Don't get me wrong I am a huge supporter of CGC since the very begining when they were very tough, but it seem that there is a curve from the occasional sumitter to the high volume submitter (legal note this is an opinion)

 

WEBHEAD

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm just hoping someone picks up on my formaldehyde joke..

[Flaming_Telepath]

I respectfully disagree with this. I think note-taking and giving is an obligation on their part. We pay to have them grade our books, so they should provide their explanations. When you get an inspection on a house, you get a full, detailed report, not just "ceiling in fair shape." All of the books I've sent have gotten notes (and I do wish they'd send them back with the books or post them on-line for members), but most of the time the notes don't say where a chip is or a color touch is. This is especially important when I buy a book that's been cracked out of the case but comes with the supposed CGC label.

 

If that's the level of service that you want, I suspect that CGC would be charging you more.

 

I'm also sure that an inspection of your home is a little dearer than $29.