Time to Stir the pot... Overstreet grading vs CGC grading

[ComicConnoisseur]

 

 

This is exactly what I mean, I've seen books that according to Overstreet's standard would be a 7.0 or 6.5 show up as a 6.0 which is a significant drop in investment value.

 

How many times do I need to say this? It seems like I repeat this over and over and over again. Well...I guess until everyone gets it through their heads.

 

And this is nothing personal against you, Webby; you're certainly not the only one who does this.

 

You're talking about QUARTER and HALF grade differences in grades. The difference between a 6.5 and 6.0...and even a 6.0 and 7.0....is SUBJECTIVE.

 

No one...not CGC, not the greatest grader in the world, NO ONE...can grade a book exactly the same every single time it appears before them, ESPECIALLY in mid and low grades. What may be a 6.5 on one day could easily be a 6.0 or 7.0 on another day.

 

The REAL problem here is NOT CGC's "grading variances"...it's the utterly irational price differences the market has created between points.

 

Why on earth would a 7.0 be worth TWICE what a 6.0 is, in some cases? It certainly does not have half the damage of the 6.0.

 

When slab buyers en masses decide that a 7.0 isn't worth multiples of a 6.0, or a 9.2 isn't worth multiples of an 8.5, because the physical differences between these points is subtle AT BEST (if not totally non-existant in some cases!), then the problem will be solved.

 

It's not CGC's "apparent" lack of consistency that's the problem...it's the market's utterly ridicuous response to the number on the label that is. Once that's fixed...problem solved.

You are spot on right,that is the first thing I noticed in doing my research 6 months ago. Some people are buying the number on the label and are actually not looking at the book itself, if they did, they would save money. (thumbs u

 

That took you 6 months to research that!

I went with the old scientific method before I could form my hypothesis.

 

[Racer-X]

Hi All: Racer-X newbie here. Thanks for this post - I'm very interested in your opinions. I've been collecting for 30+ years. That's not a boast - just b.g. I know many of you have been collecting just as long if not longer. Didn't we all start grading back when we first started buying from our LCS? They put a price on a book and called it a certain grade. Over time we bought more and absorbed all that info and began to have a meter ourselves. The more we bought and sold, compared books of a grade to books of another dealer of the same grade, took books to dealers for opinions, etc, the more accurate - that is, the more in line with the rest of the comic world - we became. I think that most of us experienced collectors would grade any given book within .5 of each other, 1.0 tops. So although "grading is subjective," in my mind it is only within that range. That said, I became acquainted with CGC well into my collecting career, and boy did my grading curve shift. From the beginning until this very day I think they are extremely conservative. Now of course, I know they are far more experienced than I am, and see thousands more books than I do. I don't doubt their expertise in the least. And thus my own grading curve has become more conservative, tho still not at CGC level. But I bet that if CGCd books were de-slabbed and handed to us for grading, we'd most likely grade the same book .5 or even 1.0 higher than CGC did. Do you all agree? And did I write too much?

 

[Boozad]

Hi All: Racer-X newbie here. Thanks for this post - I'm very interested in your opinions. I've been collecting for 30+ years. That's not a boast - just b.g. I know many of you have been collecting just as long if not longer. Didn't we all start grading back when we first started buying from our LCS? They put a price on a book and called it a certain grade. Over time we bought more and absorbed all that info and began to have a meter ourselves. The more we bought and sold, compared books of a grade to books of another dealer of the same grade, took books to dealers for opinions, etc, the more accurate - that is, the more in line with the rest of the comic world - we became. I think that most of us experienced collectors would grade any given book within .5 of each other, 1.0 tops. So although "grading is subjective," in my mind it is only within that range. That said, I became acquainted with CGC well into my collecting career, and boy did my grading curve shift. From the beginning until this very day I think they are extremely conservative. Now of course, I know they are far more experienced than I am, and see thousands more books than I do. I don't doubt their expertise in the least. And thus my own grading curve has become more conservative, tho still not at CGC level. But I bet that if CGCd books were de-slabbed and handed to us for grading, we'd most likely grade the same book .5 or even 1.0 higher than CGC did. Do you all agree? And did I write too much?

 

I've only ever subbed one SA book and one BA book, and both came back higher than I thought and higher than I'd graded them myself.

[Flaming_Telepath]

That said, I became acquainted with CGC well into my collecting career, and boy did my grading curve shift. From the beginning until this very day I think they are extremely conservative.

 

I'd never consider CGC to be conservative. Slightly loose to just about right, I'd say.

[Racer-X]

Really? Wow. I've sent in about 20 and have bought about 100 - all golds and silvers. I always thought I was conservative until I started looking at the CGCs. Of course it's difficult to determine a grade through the slab, but most sure look better than their numbers. And not a one that I sent in came back higher than what I'd given, and most below. Well, until the pendulum swings my way, seems like I'm not in line with you other collectors. Thanks for the feedback! -RX

 

[Topnotchman]

My first older book I submitted a couple years ago, my personal copy of Green Lantern 76, I figured it would at least be a 6.0, it came back 7.5.

[Racer-X]

that is sweet. i haven't been so lucky. i may have to adjust downward again. but there are 3 ways that I stand by my grading scale accuracy:

 

1) when i see a book i want at a local dealer, i always grade it before i ask their grade or price - and i'm almost always within .5 of the dealer

2) when i sell (mostly through ebay), i've never once had a grade dispute

3) when i buy off ebay, i very often downgrade the book (raw of course), and keep it that way in my list. That is, if I buy a book advertised as a VF, and I think it's a F/VF, I'll sell it as an F/VF. not a VF or VF-

 

Alas, is there no one out there who thinks CGC is quite tough?

 

--RX

 

[Mr 9.8]

 

Alas, is there no one out there who thinks CGC is quite tough?

 

--RX

I think they are quite tough. Then Some times I think they are to loose on the grading.

[Marvelfangirl]

CGC grading is kind a like the lottery,you don't know when you hit the CGC grading jackpot.

[Flaming_Telepath]

that is sweet. i haven't been so lucky. i may have to adjust downward again. but there are 3 ways that I stand by my grading scale accuracy:

 

1) when i see a book i want at a local dealer, i always grade it before i ask their grade or price - and i'm almost always within .5 of the dealer

2) when i sell (mostly through ebay), i've never once had a grade dispute

3) when i buy off ebay, i very often downgrade the book (raw of course), and keep it that way in my list. That is, if I buy a book advertised as a VF, and I think it's a F/VF, I'll sell it as an F/VF. not a VF or VF-

 

Alas, is there no one out there who thinks CGC is quite tough?

 

--RX

 

I'm not trying to be mean here, but if you find you're agreeing with local dealers on grades...you're very much over-estimating those grades. (thumbs u

[Topnotchman]

Wait til you start submitting the giant square bound issues from the 70's, now that is a challenge to predict. Roller coaster....

[Bomber-Bob]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

[Mr 9.8]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

Don't tell the 'Pressing is restoration' people that!

[Racer-X]

I don't take that as being mean - I value all the comments and suggestions on these boards. I noted the LCS grades as just one aspect of how I try to grade accurately. I trust the 2 dealers of whom I was thinking as I've known them for a while.

 

[rodan57]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

 

Actually, I think the opposite to be true, hence the problem with SCS.

[Mr 9.8]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

 

Actually, I think the opposite to be true, hence the problem with SCS.

SCS?

[Flaming_Telepath]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

 

Actually, I think the opposite to be true, hence the problem with SCS.

SCS?

 

Shaken Comic Syndrome (thumbs u

[jimjum12]

I've popped enough books out of their slabs to realize that the slab DOES make the book look better. Books that I couldn't understand why they were only CGC 8.0 usually yield visibility to more subtle defects once removed. I've bought a few slabs early on that seemed slightly overgraded so I now buy the book and not the label. I've always considered myself a good grader and when selling my number one rule is to give the book the same grade that I would be happy to buy it as....pretty simple. The LCS I've frequented most of my life has been run by the same fellow for 30 years and his motto is " I don't grade them, I price them.".....so I grew up deciding if the book is nice enough for the price asked, if it's worth that to me. I always thought it would be simpler if someone does choose to grade their books, to grade them tightly and then charge a high price for an accurately graded book. Even when buying raw I usually base my decision on whether I want to buy a SPECIFIC book at a certain price....do I want THIS book for THAT price. Grading is really a complicated negotiating tool when a simple yes or no will usually suffice. As was said before, I don't see that much difference between between OSPG and CGC except that CGC assigns less weight to PQ and QP when assigning grades. In their defense...their labeling system makes that clear when making a purchase decision....and a good look at the scans clarifies the rest. It's very rare that I buy raw anymore on books above 6.5....but when I do I still buy the book, not the grade. I got a book not long ago that was raw and graded 9.2. It was obvious from the scan it was 8.0 at best....but the book was tough in grade and a CGC 7.5 would likely have gone for the price I paid. Most good dealers seem to grade a notch or so higher than CGC but when you consider that the type of books I like ( pre '65)...sell in CGC slabs at the next grade up in OSPG and sometimes even more...it all kind of comes out in the wash. For the record...I LOVE CGC.....GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. The Overstreet grading guide is a GREAT place to start for newer collectors who want to add some clarity to their grading.....the key is learning to recognize the defects and learn the language.

[jimjum12]

One more thing.....OSPG grading, when applied objectively, is actually quite stringent.....it's just that a great number of those who claim to use Overstreet standards usually DON'T.....especially in VF and better. A strict OSPG 8.0 will be a VERY nice book.....what is typically offered on the internet as a 9.0 or 9.2.....just keep that in mind. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Bomber-Bob]

I would like to mention a subtle point on why it sometimes 'appears' CGC was harsh on a book. The book in the slab is very snug thus 'pressing' out many creases, folds, indentations, etc. = they look better than they actually are.

 

Actually, I think the opposite to be true, hence the problem with SCS.

 

I think we are both right, they are snug enough to flatten out the book but still loose enough to slightly move. I once had a phone conversation with CGC about

SCS and how I thought they were too loose in the inner well but it was explained to me that if the book is too snug and immobilized you can have damage at the staples, they can even pop. Personally, I like it when they use a wedge (their term)

to help hold the book in place inside the inner well. I see less SCS with the use of wedges.