Silver Age Marvel Western Pedigree Books & Demand

[MarkWoodcock]

Are you still collecting?

 

After I sold off my GCG collection, I took a break for many years but have followed other's conquests from afar.

 

I've always been intrigued by the westerns, not because I ever read them or even liked them in general, but rather because you'd occasionally see them in an ad in one of the old books when they showed the entire Marvel line-up.

 

They're a part of the Marvel Universe and even pre-date all the super-heroes yet collectors, for the most part, treat them like some deranged relative that no one wants to invite to the family get-togethers.

 

I like looking for things that can't be easily found (yes, I'm still looking for any 9.4 Linda Carter, Student Nurse!) so I thought it would be fun to tackle the Marvel westerns.

 

Many of them have those great Kirby covers so they scream MARVEL! Also, they were published only every other month so, comparatively, there aren't as many to find. However, because no one really cared about them, they're impossible to locate in über high grade.

 

For instance, let's pick a random month, say 2/64.

 

FF#23 9.6/4 9.4/6 9.2/9

Spidey #9 9.6/6 9.4/14 9.2/25

JIM #101 9.8/2 9.6/6 9.4 9.4/6 9.2/14 (what's up with THAT book??)

TTA #52 9.6/2 9.4/6 9.2/6

 

That month was also Rawhide Kid #38. So, how many have been graded? The highest is a single copy at 9.0.

 

Think about that, for the past ten years, a SINGLE BOOK at 9.0! Excuse me?

 

I did some research on this and the following books have nothing at 9.2 or above.......

 

Two-Gun Kid #54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,66,78

Rawhide Kid #17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,31,32,34,35,36,38,43,57,70

Kid Colt Outlaw #87,88,91,92,93,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,108,109,110,111,112,113,114,115,117,118,119,124,133,136,137

Gunsmoke Western #59,60,61,62,63,64,65,67,68,69,70,71,73,74,75,77

 

All of those books are the 12 cent books and the Kirby-era 10 centers.

 

If you take those four titles (factoring out Rawhide Kid #50) and have your starting point be when Kirby began doing the covers and ending with the last 12cent book, here are the numbers for each grade:

 

9.8 - 3 copies (I have two of them, thank you very much)

9.6 - 28 copies (with 13, almost half, being from 6 issues)

9.4 - 88 copies (with 27 being from 6 issues)

9.2 - 79 copies (with 39, almost half, being from 16 issues)

 

Keep in mind, the bulk of the graded books are from 1966 and beyond. So if you want a high-grade pre-1966 book - GOOD LUCK!

 

As I pointed out at the beginning of the thread, there are very few pedigrees that had Marvel westerns so the high grade books are going to be found piecemeal and not as a group like so many of the super-heroes. If you look at a 9.6, it's often from this or that pedigree, whereas a western is from no pedigree - it's just a one-off. I think that's one of the reasons there are so few in the Census.

 

Good grief! When I started this reply I had no intention of going on like this!

 

I'll shut up now.

 

 

 

[Aman619]

great stuff. however, the numbers may be misleading of course. Books are slabbed for different reasons, mostly for sale. SO the census reflects (to a large degree) the books for sale over the past 10 years. And whether they are out there or not, who is slabbing and selling their Marvel Westerns?

 

Im sure there are HG runs sitting quietly in collections of guys who know what they have with no intention of letting go.

 

And havent we seen this movie before? The guys who bought the first 9.8s wanted to believe the rarity as evidenced by the census. Same for early SA DCs. 8.5 felt like it was high enough to last, but 9.2 and 9.4 eventually showed up.

 

Bottom line? Best way to get the answer as to how many are out there is to keep threads like this going. Showing these cool books. Get a buzz going for them like the DC war thread, and the BA horror thread.

 

Once the usual superhero guys start seeking these more obscure Marvels and paying eye-opening prices? then we will see more of them slabbed .

[tth2]

You've convinced me! I'm going to start collecting pre-1965 Marvel westerns!

[Aman619]

thats one!! anyone else?

[MarkWoodcock]

Books are slabbed for different reasons, mostly for sale. SO the census reflects (to a large degree) the books for sale over the past 10 years. And whether they are out there or not, who is slabbing and selling their Marvel Westerns?

 

Im sure there are HG runs sitting quietly in collections of guys who know what they have with no intention of letting go.

 

The only thing I'd quibble with you about is that super-high grade collectors are a different breed. They want bragging rights and you can't brag about an unslabbed 9.6. Until it's slabbed it doesn't "exist".

 

If you've got an unslabbed 9.4 Rawhide Kid #17 or TGK #75 there's no reason not to slab it because you can wave it around (like I will be doing with my 9.4 TGK #75 with White Pages when it arrives today) and be obnoxious about it.

 

The exceptions are those collectors sitting on the Golden Age Mile High runs. They bought those back in the 70's and it would cost them a fortune to slab. When you've got the Mile High Marvel Mystery run, slabbing it would actually diminish the mystique.

 

The thing I can't stress enough is that we're talking about TEN YEARS here. In all these years, this is all that's been slabbed?

 

The answer is for the demand to increase and people will start slabbing them.

 

Sadly, if the demand increases, so will the prices and I'd like to get as many as I can before everyone starts jumping on my bandwagon.

 

However, I seriously doubt that there are that many out there as compared to the superheroes. In fact, I suspect there are many issues where a 9.4 doesn't even exist.

 

We'll see.

[Aman619]

you are right about the Registry aspect. Those few Marvel guys would definitely slab and show off their 9.4s etc, but, I dont think they collect the westerns! Odds are the western fanatics who ended up with the pristine copies are western/esoteric collectors.

 

I dont see the top superhero guys going after the Marvel romance titles either. right?

 

 

having said that.... I was always hunting for high grade copies too and didnt end up with too many. so who knows?

[MarkWoodcock]

I dont see the top superhero guys going after the Marvel romance titles either. right?

 

I doubt The Great Bartoni would but you never know about The Schmellster or The Brulatonator.

[buttock]

One issue is that Western collectors are not common, and tend to be older. Nor are they the BSD type where a number on a slab means much to them, so I don't think you're going to see many copies CGC graded.

[canickus]

There seem to be very very few westerns in any of the big pedigree collections.

 

To the best of my knowledge, only the Boston and Massachusetts collections really had any of the early 60's books. Nothing from White Mountain, Curator, Northland, Western Penn, Pacific Coast, etc. I think Bethlehem had a few but no killer copies.

 

Am I wrong, or were they there and they've disappeared into collections? If they have, no one's had any of their books slabbed.

 

If you go purely by the Census numbers, the early Marvel westerns are the rarest of all the Silver Age books. (Some might say romance, but that's another topic for another time.)

 

One could argue that there isn't a big demand for the books therefore people haven't bothered to invest in slabbing. However, if someone had 9.4 books from 1960-1963, I doubt they've just sat on them all these years.

 

CGC has been around, what, ten years(?) and if you look at the Census there isn't squat when it comes to high grade western. Barely any. I'm sure there are a bunch of books lurking out there but they're clearly not from pedigree collections and they're not nearly in the numbers we see with superheroes.

 

WHERE ARE THEY???

 

Mark,

 

It is nice to see a good discussion on Marvel Westerns. I still love a good western and wish more western movies were in production, because they come around as often as high grade marvel westerns.

 

If you accept that the Silver Age begins with Showcase 4 in Sep/Oct 1956, then the Mile High pedigree has some of the westerns up to 1958. According to Chuck, the newstand where Edgar Church bought his books pulled a copy of every comic for him from 1938 to 1953. when he retired. From 1953 until 1958, he bought his books used. If I remember correctly, he liked to read the western genre more than other genres so he continued to buy these books. These books are typically lower in grade than the earlier books in his collection because of how he bought them and read them, and one suspects, because they were the books on top of the large stacks.

 

I know that they are technically golden age (by a few months), but I am enjoying the discussion of the western books, and these are typical of the mile high westerns from Edgar Church's retirement.

 

 

I threw in this non-Marvel Western just for fun because it is cool Matt Baker cover from this same time period.

 

 

 

 

[MarkWoodcock]

Thanks for the pics and the info! All I can is WOW!

[namisgr]

Speaking of info, how extensive and old are the Massachusetts runs of Marvel Westerns?

[MarkWoodcock]

The earliest I've seen is a RK #19 but I have no idea how complete the runs were. It appears they're pretty complete starting in late 1963.

 

Who actually found that collection?

[tth2]

The earliest I've seen is a RK #19 but I have no idea how complete the runs were. It appears they're pretty complete starting in late 1963.

 

Who actually found that collection?

Wasn't it Marnin?

[namisgr]

Yes, in '93. The superhero comics went as far back as 1960, and the runs were complete and uniformly nice, so chances are good that many of the Marvel Westerns exist in high grade from that pedigree. Marnin could tell you for sure.

[MarkWoodcock]

Here's a crude "graph" that I put together to give some perspective on where the westerns fall in the superhero universe.

 

I used FF since it was the first book and only included KCO & GW because they came out the same month. RK and TGK came out on the even months.

 

Not that it makes any difference, but I never realized until now that KCO mirrors FF in its number count (to #106) - with the obvious difference being that KCO starts with 101.

 

In the census:

 

FF#1 - 9.6/1 9.4/4 9.2/2 9.0/1

KCO#101 - one book has been graded and it's 4.5

 

Now granted, if the value of that book were even a fraction of the value of FF#1 there would be more in the census. However, it's a little startling that in ten years ONLY ONE book has been graded and it's not even remotely high grade.

 

Clearly, the Marvel western market isn't about slabbed books. I got my TGK 9.6W from Harley on eBay and it was BIN. I was stunned no one had bought it already, I figured it was some new find where there were half dozen of them floating around - but it wasn't. You just know he had it out at several shows and everyone turned their nose up at it. Thank goodness!

 

I may be shooting myself in the foot but I'll say this anyway......

 

Comics are a finite collectable. There's an X number of old titles and there won't be any more to discover. We know everything that's out there to be had regarding titles. Superheroes' popularity goes up and down (depending upon what suckola movie has been made based upon one of them - how are those Jonah Hex's workin' for ya dealers?) but everyone knows what to look for.

 

These Marvel westerns are sitting out in the open and everyone is ignoring them for the most part. If I'd gone to SD I would have bought every one of the early ones I could find but I didn't go because I'm clearly an insufficiently_thoughtful_person - which is what the CGC board substitues for ID-E-YUT.

 

I hope there are a bunch of beauties hiding out there that will eventually begin to see the light of day and end up in my greedy hands.

 

 

 

[rodan57]

I'm going to put a little spin on your graph for perspective's sake. For every calendar month, Marvel had two "cover months" for their newsstand issues. Sharing the same cover month date is only an approximate indication of which comic books were newsstand contemporaries. (In the "Now On Sale" House Ads of 1964 and 1965, note the two cover months on the illustrated comic book covers.)

 

For example, using a key date, not every "Nov. 1961" issue was released in August, 1961. Some were September newsstand releases. It's confusing and was not rectified until Marvel went to 20¢.

 

One has to refer to publishing records to understand which comics were newsstand contemporaries, at least until the Marvel checklist began ('64) -- and even this seldom listed western or teen titles.

 

I've bolded all the westerns and the key superhero releases.

 

August 1961

Oct/Nov 61 Cover Months

Amazing Adventures 6

Fantastic Four 1

JIM 73

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 13

Kid Colt Outlaw 101

Life With Millie 13

Linda Carter, Student Nurse 2

Millie the Model 105

Patsy Walker 97

Strange Tales 90

TOS 23

TTA 25

 

September 1961

Nov/Dec 61 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 7

Gunsmoke Western 67

JIM 74

Love Romances 96

Patsy & Hedy 79

Rawhide Kid 25

Strange Tales 91

Teen-Age Romance 84

TOS 24

TTA 26

 

October 1961

Dec 61/Jan 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 8

Fantastic Four 2

JIM 75

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 14

Kid Colt Outlaw 102

Life With Millie 14

Linda Carter, Student Nurse 3

Millie the Model 106

Patsy Walker 98

Strange Tales 92

TOS 25

TTA 27

 

November 1961

Jan/Feb 62 Cover Months

12¢ issues begin.

Amazing Adult Fantasy 9

Gunsmoke Western 68

JIM 76

Love Romances 97

Patsy & Hedy 80

Rawhide Kid 26

Strange Tales 93

Teen-Age Romance 85

TOS 26

TTA 28

 

December 1961

Feb/Mar 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 10

Fantastic Four 3

JIM 77

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 15

Kid Colt Outlaw 103

Life With Millie 15

Linda Carter, Student Nurse4

Millie the Model 107

Patsy Walker 99

Strange Tales 94

TOS 27

TTA 29

 

January 1962

Mar/Apr 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 11

Gunsmoke Western 69

JIM 78

Love Romances 98

Patsy & Hedy 81

Rawhide Kid 27

Strange Tales 95

Teen-Age Romance 86

TOS 28

TTA 30

 

February 1962

Apr/May 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 12

Fantastic Four 4

JIM 79

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 16

Kid Colt Outlaw 104

Life With Millie 16

Linda Carter, Student Nurse 5

Millie the Model 108

Patsy Walker 100

Strange Tales 96

TOS 29

TTA 31

 

March 1962

May/Jun 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 13

Gunsmoke Western 70

Incredible Hulk 1

JIM 80

Love Romances 99

Patsy & Hedy 82

Rawhide Kid 28

Strange Tales 97

TOS 30

TTA 32

 

April 1962

Jun/Jul 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 14

Fantastic Four 5

JIM 81

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 17

Kid Colt Outlaw 105

Life With Millie 17

Linda Carter, Student Nurse 6

Millie the Model 109

Patsy Walker 101

Strange Tales 98

TOS 31

TTA 33

 

May 1962

Jul/Aug 62 Cover Months

Gunsmoke Western 71

Incredible Hulk 2

JIM 82

Love Romances 100

Patsy & Hedy 83

Rawhide Kid 29

Strange Tales 99

TOS 32

TTA 34

 

June 1962

Aug/Sep 62 Cover Months

Amazing Fantasy 15

Fantastic Four 6

JIM 83

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 18

Kid Colt Outlaw 106

Life With Millie 18

Linda Carter, Student Nurse 7

Millie the Model 110

Patsy Walker 102

Strange Tales 100

TOS 33

TTA 35

 

Two-Gun Kid would return in August of 1962 (Oct. Cover Date) with the cancellation of Amazing Fantasy*, providing readers with two westerns per month (KKC & TGK alternating with GW & RK) -- at least until July of 1963 when Gunsmoke Western (#77 last issue) and Love Romances (#106 last issue) were replaced by Avengers #1 and X-Men #1.

 

 

*This was particularly fitting as the bi-monthly Two-Gun Kid and My Girl, Pearl were cancelled to make way for the monthly Amazing Adventures/Amazing Adult Fantasy in February of 1961.

 

 

[tth2]

Here's a crude "graph" that I put together to give some perspective on where the westerns fall in the superhero universe.

 

I used FF since it was the first book and only included KCO & GW because they came out the same month. RK and TGK came out on the even months.

 

Not that it makes any difference, but I never realized until now that KCO mirrors FF in its number count (to #106) - with the obvious difference being that KCO starts with 101.

 

In the census:

 

FF#1 - 9.6/1 9.4/4 9.2/2 9.0/1

KCO#101 - one book has been graded and it's 4.5

 

Now granted, if the value of that book were even a fraction of the value of FF#1 there would be more in the census. However, it's a little startling that in ten years ONLY ONE book has been graded and it's not even remotely high grade.

 

Clearly, the Marvel western market isn't about slabbed books. I got my TGK 9.6W from Harley on eBay and it was BIN. I was stunned no one had bought it already, I figured it was some new find where there were half dozen of them floating around - but it wasn't. You just know he had it out at several shows and everyone turned their nose up at it. Thank goodness!

 

I may be shooting myself in the foot but I'll say this anyway......

 

Comics are a finite collectable. There's an X number of old titles and there won't be any more to discover. We know everything that's out there to be had regarding titles. Superheroes' popularity goes up and down (depending upon what suckola movie has been made based upon one of them - how are those Jonah Hex's workin' for ya dealers?) but everyone knows what to look for.

 

These Marvel westerns are sitting out in the open and everyone is ignoring them for the most part. If I'd gone to SD I would have bought every one of the early ones I could find but I didn't go because I'm clearly an insufficiently_thoughtful_person - which is what the CGC board substitues for ID-E-YUT.

 

I hope there are a bunch of beauties hiding out there that will eventually begin to see the light of day and end up in my greedy hands.

Good post. HG Atlas westerns have definitely been picking up in price, so it's probably only a matter of time before the Marvel westerns start following the same trend.

 

You should change your name to KidColtOutlaw101Kid and start a thread on it. It's a tactic that has definitely worked in pumping up sparking interest in other undervalued SA books, which drives up price, but definitely helps to increase supply.

[MarkWoodcock]

I'm going to put a little spin on your graph for perspective's sake. For every calendar month, Marvel had two "cover months" for their newsstand issues. Sharing the same cover month date is only an approximate indication of which comic books were newsstand contemporaries. (In the "Now On Sale" House Ads of 1964 and 1965, note the two cover months on the illustrated comic book covers.)

 

For example, using a key date, not every "Nov. 1961" issue was released in August, 1961. Some were September newsstand releases. It's confusing and was not rectified until Marvel went to 20¢.

 

One has to refer to publishing records to understand which comics were newsstand contemporaries, at least until the Marvel checklist began ('64) -- and even this seldom listed western or teen titles.

 

I've bolded all the westerns and the key superhero releases.

 

August 1961

Oct/Nov 61 Cover Months

Amazing Adventures 6

Fantastic Four 1

JIM 73

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 13

Kid Colt Outlaw 101

Life With Millie 13

Linda Carter, Student Nurse 2

Millie the Model 105

Patsy Walker 97

Strange Tales 90

TOS 23

TTA 25

 

September 1961

Nov/Dec 61 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 7

Gunsmoke Western 67

JIM 74

Love Romances 96

Patsy & Hedy 79

Rawhide Kid 25

Strange Tales 91

Teen-Age Romance 84

TOS 24

TTA 26

 

October 1961

Dec 61/Jan 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 8

Fantastic Four 2

JIM 75

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 14

Kid Colt Outlaw 102

Life With Millie 14

Linda Carter, Student Nurse 3

Millie the Model 106

Patsy Walker 98

Strange Tales 92

TOS 25

TTA 27

 

November 1961

Jan/Feb 62 Cover Months

12¢ issues begin.

Amazing Adult Fantasy 9

Gunsmoke Western 68

JIM 76

Love Romances 97

Patsy & Hedy 80

Rawhide Kid 26

Strange Tales 93

Teen-Age Romance 85

TOS 26

TTA 28

 

December 1961

Feb/Mar 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 10

Fantastic Four 3

JIM 77

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 15

Kid Colt Outlaw 103

Life With Millie 15

Linda Carter, Student Nurse4

Millie the Model 107

Patsy Walker 99

Strange Tales 94

TOS 27

TTA 29

 

January 1962

Mar/Apr 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 11

Gunsmoke Western 69

JIM 78

Love Romances 98

Patsy & Hedy 81

Rawhide Kid 27

Strange Tales 95

Teen-Age Romance 86

TOS 28

TTA 30

 

February 1962

Apr/May 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 12

Fantastic Four 4

JIM 79

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 16

Kid Colt Outlaw 104

Life With Millie 16

Linda Carter, Student Nurse 5

Millie the Model 108

Patsy Walker 100

Strange Tales 96

TOS 29

TTA 31

 

March 1962

May/Jun 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 13

Gunsmoke Western 70

Incredible Hulk 1

JIM 80

Love Romances 99

Patsy & Hedy 82

Rawhide Kid 28

Strange Tales 97

TOS 30

TTA 32

 

April 1962

Jun/Jul 62 Cover Months

Amazing Adult Fantasy 14

Fantastic Four 5

JIM 81

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 17

Kid Colt Outlaw 105

Life With Millie 17

Linda Carter, Student Nurse 6

Millie the Model 109

Patsy Walker 101

Strange Tales 98

TOS 31

TTA 33

 

May 1962

Jul/Aug 62 Cover Months

Gunsmoke Western 71

Incredible Hulk 2

JIM 82

Love Romances 100

Patsy & Hedy 83

Rawhide Kid 29

Strange Tales 99

TOS 32

TTA 34

 

June 1962

Aug/Sep 62 Cover Months

Amazing Fantasy 15

Fantastic Four 6

JIM 83

Kathy, The Teen-Age Tornado 18

Kid Colt Outlaw 106

Life With Millie 18

Linda Carter, Student Nurse 7

Millie the Model 110

Patsy Walker 102

Strange Tales 100

TOS 33

TTA 35

 

Two-Gun Kid would return in August of 1962 (Oct. Cover Date) with the cancellation of Amazing Fantasy*, providing readers with two westerns per month (KKC & TGK alternating with GW & RK) -- at least until July of 1963 when Gunsmoke Western (#77 last issue) and Love Romances (#106 last issue) were replaced by Avengers #1 and X-Men #1.

 

 

*This was particularly fitting as the bi-monthly Two-Gun Kid and My Girl, Pearl were cancelled to make way for the monthly Amazing Adventures/Amazing Adult Fantasy in February of 1961.

 

 

Thanks for all the great info!

 

You get a big gold star!

[rodan57]

[canickus]

According to GPA, here are the Kid Colt CGC Pedigree Western Sales

 

Kid Colt 2 9.6 Vancouver

Kid Colt 4 9.0 Crippen, 8.0 Aurora

Kid Colt 5 6.0 Crippen

Kid Colt 7 7.0 Church

Kid Colt 9 9.0 Church

Kid Colt 10 8.0 Church

Kid Colt 17 9.0 Church

Kid Colt 18 9.2 Church

Kid Colt 19 8.5 Church

Kid Colt 20 8.5 Church

Kid Colt 21 8.0 Church

Kid Colt 23 8.0 Church

Kid Colt 24 9.4 Church

Kid Colt 28 8.5 Church

Kid Colt 29 8.0 Church

Kid Colt 34 8.5 Church

Kid Colt 35 8.5 Church

Kid Colt 42 8.0 Church

Kid Colt 44 8.5 Church

Kid Colt 45 7.0 Church

Kid Colt 52 9.4 Church

Kid Colt 53 9.2 Church (upgraded from an 8.5)

 

The only silver age pedigree sales recorded so far, and they are scarce, are...

 

Kid Colt 73 9.2 Circle 8

Kid Colt 129 9.4 Boston

Kid Colt 130 9.8 Boston (dang it, I love Bostons)

Kid Colt 146 9.6 Oakland, 9.4 Don Rosa Collection

 

There are Don Rosa Colllection copies of most, if not all of the rest of the run.