I never grasped this ?

[Mr. 10%]

Why is an apparent grade 8.0 franken (original grade 3.0) worth so much less than a universal grade 3.0 book?

 

I can see several reasons for this:

 

(i) The resto on many high end books was originally performed by crooks and dishonest dealers to make a fast buck on naive collectors. I.e. restoe is associated with -behaviour

 

(ii) Resto (as CT, cleaning, tear seals) as externally materials applied to a book, are of a different kind compared to a) overspray on top of the book, b) author-signatures on the frontcover, c) datestamps, d) other kinds of accidental scripple on the book.

 

(iii) The assumption that its not good to restore a comic book. A comic book should be a true timetraveller. And even though other ares of collectibles accept restoration, that is not the case when it comes to comics.

 

There are probably many more reasons for shunning PLODs.

 

But the reason why I ask about this is that I have heard boardies claim about an AF15 cgc 9.0 that if it just had some very minor CT (like a few dots) then they would not pay more for it than something like 432 $

 

I gues they would pay more. But again it is a signal. And the opinion should be respected of course. But open respectfull discussion of this could be interesting.

 

 

 

 

[faster friends]

[Warren Oates]

A dot of color touch does not kill a book value wise. The degree of resto can, slight, moderate, or extensive. If it says extensive, the book will be highly shunned. Moderate will be shunned plenty too. Slight you might get some people willing to pay 75% of grade. Also depends on how easy it is to find the book, if there is one for sale in the world people might bid on it regardless.

 

One thing I don't like about resto grades is I don't get to know they real grade. Say I buy a Moderate 6.0 that says tear seals and pieces added. Ok well how many pieces added and how big were they? How big was the tear that was sealed? I don't know if the book was 1.8 or 4.0 before being doctored. Must people just assume the worst unless it's slight resto and is noted "small amount of color touch on cover" or some such thing.

 

I would buy a resto book, but would bid accordingly.

 

I'll take that AF 15 for $432, even if it's only an apparent 4.5

[fantastic_four]

A dot of color touch does not kill a book value wise. The degree of resto can, slight, moderate, or extensive. If it says extensive, the book will be highly shunned. Moderate will be shunned plenty too. Slight you might get some people willing to pay 75% of grade. Also depends on how easy it is to find the book, if there is one for sale in the world people might bid on it regardless.

 

One thing I don't like about resto grades is I don't get to know they real grade. Say I buy a Moderate 6.0 that says tear seals and pieces added. Ok well how many pieces added and how big were they? How big was the tear that was sealed? I don't know if the book was 1.8 or 4.0 before being doctored. Must people just assume the worst unless it's slight resto and is noted "small amount of color touch on cover" or some such thing.

 

I agree that the biggest problem with valuing Angelius's example of an 8.0 frankenbook is that you don't know what the real grade is, so people tend to just ignore it completely or drastically underestimate what the non-apparent grade is to protect their investment. However, the overriding reason restored values are so low is because the majority of collectors think of restoration as being done to deceive so they avoid PLODs entirely. This is particularly true on a book like Amazing Fantasy 15 where there are enough copies out there that are available in all grades so they find it easier to just avoid them, thereby adding tremendous volatility to restored prices since the market for them is so comparatively small. People begin to consider restored books and think about the prices they pay more extensively on early Golden Age because those books just aren't available in nicer grades--or ANY grade--nearly as much. Since that's a comparatively small segment of the collecting community, early Golden Age collectors' generally more educated opinions aren't pervasive.

[bluechip]

Why is an apparent grade 8.0 franken (original grade 3.0) worth so much less than a universal grade 3.0 book?

 

I can see several reasons for this:

 

(i) The resto on many high end books was originally performed by crooks and dishonest dealers to make a fast buck on naive collectors. I.e. restoe is associated with -behaviour

 

(ii) Resto (as CT, cleaning, tear seals) as externally materials applied to a book, are of a different kind compared to a) overspray on top of the book, b) author-signatures on the frontcover, c) datestamps, d) other kinds of accidental scripple on the book.

 

(iii) The assumption that its not good to restore a comic book. A comic book should be a true timetraveller. And even though other ares of collectibles accept restoration, that is not the case when it comes to comics.

 

There are probably many more reasons for shunning PLODs.

 

But the reason why I ask about this is that I have heard boardies claim about an AF15 cgc 9.0 that if it just had some very minor CT (like a few dots) then they would not pay more for it than something like 432 $

 

I gues they would pay more. But again it is a signal. And the opinion should be respected of course. But open respectfull discussion of this could be interesting.

 

 

 

 

There are many reasons, but by a very, wide margin, these are the top three reasons.

 

1) the label color

 

2) the label color

 

3) the color on the label

 

 

 

[comicparadox]

 

There are many reasons, but by a very, wide margin, these are the top three reasons.

 

1) the label color

 

2) the label color

 

3) the color on the label

 

 

 

Don't forget the purple label. Less preferable than blue or yellow. Or even green.

[bluechip]

 

There are many reasons, but by a very, wide margin, these are the top three reasons.

 

1) the label color

 

2) the label color

 

3) the color on the label

 

 

 

Don't forget the purple label. Less preferable than blue or yellow. Or even green.

 

I agree with those who say it wouldn't matter what the color because the color creates the impression that all books within that group are essentially the same.

 

For instance, all yellow books are equal in that they all have signatures on them.

 

Purple label books encompass books that has xeroxed covers and pages, as well as books with a little bit of cleaning, color touch or glue.

 

Because the color designates them as, essentially, the same, they are treated largely the same.

 

Since the designation of blue is considered investment worthy, then books with those color labels are considered investments, even if the words on the label say the same things as the words on the purple label (such as cleaned or color touched or glue on spine. The same would be true if you added the words "pressed" to any blue label. It would not have a huge effect on values. .

 

But, if books that were pressed were given a a different label color, say red, then their values would be effected just as greatly.

 

 

 

[Mr. 10%]

A dot of color touch does not kill a book value wise. The degree of resto can, slight, moderate, or extensive. If it says extensive, the book will be highly shunned. Moderate will be shunned plenty too. Slight you might get some people willing to pay 75% of grade. Also depends on how easy it is to find the book, if there is one for sale in the world people might bid on it regardless.

 

One thing I don't like about resto grades is I don't get to know they real grade. Say I buy a Moderate 6.0 that says tear seals and pieces added. Ok well how many pieces added and how big were they? How big was the tear that was sealed? I don't know if the book was 1.8 or 4.0 before being doctored. Must people just assume the worst unless it's slight resto and is noted "small amount of color touch on cover" or some such thing.

 

I agree that the biggest problem with valuing Angelius's example of an 8.0 frankenbook is that you don't know what the real grade is, so people tend to just ignore it completely or drastically underestimate what the non-apparent grade is to protect their investment. However, the overriding reason restored values are so low is because the majority of collectors think of restoration as being done to deceive so they avoid PLODs entirely. This is particularly true on a book like Amazing Fantasy 15 where there are enough copies out there that are available in all grades so they find it easier to just avoid them, thereby adding tremendous volatility to restored prices since the market for them is so comparatively small. People begin to consider restored books and think about the prices they pay more extensively on early Golden Age because those books just aren't available in nicer grades--or ANY grade--nearly as much. Since that's a comparatively small segment of the collecting community, early Golden Age collectors' generally more educated opinions aren't pervasive.

 

Good post fantastic four - illuminating for me to read.

[Mr. 10%]

Why is an apparent grade 8.0 franken (original grade 3.0) worth so much less than a universal grade 3.0 book?

 

I can see several reasons for this:

 

(i) The resto on many high end books was originally performed by crooks and dishonest dealers to make a fast buck on naive collectors. I.e. restoe is associated with -behaviour

 

(ii) Resto (as CT, cleaning, tear seals) as externally materials applied to a book, are of a different kind compared to a) overspray on top of the book, b) author-signatures on the frontcover, c) datestamps, d) other kinds of accidental scripple on the book.

 

(iii) The assumption that its not good to restore a comic book. A comic book should be a true timetraveller. And even though other ares of collectibles accept restoration, that is not the case when it comes to comics.

 

There are probably many more reasons for shunning PLODs.

 

But the reason why I ask about this is that I have heard boardies claim about an AF15 cgc 9.0 that if it just had some very minor CT (like a few dots) then they would not pay more for it than something like 432 $

 

I gues they would pay more. But again it is a signal. And the opinion should be respected of course. But open respectfull discussion of this could be interesting.

 

 

 

 

There are many reasons, but by a very, wide margin, these are the top three reasons.

 

1) the label color

 

2) the label color

 

3) the color on the label

 

 

 

 

[Mr. 10%]

 

There are many reasons, but by a very, wide margin, these are the top three reasons.

 

1) the label color

 

2) the label color

 

3) the color on the label

 

 

 

Don't forget the purple label. Less preferable than blue or yellow. Or even green.

 

I agree with those who say it wouldn't matter what the color because the color creates the impression that all books within that group are essentially the same.

 

For instance, all yellow books are equal in that they all have signatures on them.

 

Purple label books encompass books that has xeroxed covers and pages, as well as books with a little bit of cleaning, color touch or glue.

 

Because the color designates them as, essentially, the same, they are treated largely the same.

 

Since the designation of blue is considered investment worthy, then books with those color labels are considered investments, even if the words on the label say the same things as the words on the purple label (such as cleaned or color touched or glue on spine. The same would be true if you added the words "pressed" to any blue label. It would not have a huge effect on values. .

 

But, if books that were pressed were given a a different label color, say red, then their values would be effected just as greatly.

 

 

 

But IF you are right on this blue chip (and the more of your posts I read the more I tend to believe you) - then its quite a mess. I mean this artificially created gap between liquid investment books and then their shunned counterparts. Its hard to claim that this divide is fake without suggesting an alternative

[etanick]

I for one wish they put the "apparent" grade along with a "pre restored" grade. I think it is possible and take a little more work for CGC to estimate the "pre restored" grade but that would be a better way to value a PLOD beyond just "P" or "A" or "S".

 

You know how double cover slab has a grade for the 1st cover and one for the 2nd cover. I think having 2 grades in the top left corner would make me happy.

 

Personally, if a book is a PLOD with a 6.0 because it has minor color touch in one spot and a tear seal....but a "pre restored" grade of 3.0, I would gladly pay a fair price of a blue label 3.0 for that book without a problem.

 

I suspect many Frankenbook will get a 0.5 or NG for the "pre restored" grade...so be it and they will be priced accordingly.

 

I doubt CGC will do the extra work so I won't hold my breath for this idea.

 

 

 

 

[bluechip]

I for one wish they put the "apparent" grade along with a "pre restored" grade. I think it is possible and take a little more work for CGC to estimate the "pre restored" grade but that would be a better way to value a PLOD beyond just "P" or "A" or "S".

 

You know how double cover slab has a grade for the 1st cover and one for the 2nd cover. I think having 2 grades in the top left corner would make me happy.

 

Personally, if a book is a PLOD with a 6.0 because it has minor color touch in one spot and a tear seal....but a "pre restored" grade of 3.0, I would gladly pay a fair price of a blue label 3.0 for that book without a problem.

 

I suspect many Frankenbook will get a 0.5 or NG for the "pre restored" grade...so be it and they will be priced accordingly.

 

I doubt CGC will do the extra work so I won't hold my breath for this idea.

 

 

 

 

To quote Barzini: "Certainly they can present a bill for such services. After all, we are not communists."

 

 

[VintageComics]

It's primarily a lack of understanding of what restoration is and what restoration was done to a particular book.

 

FF said it nicely.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

I for one wish they put the "apparent" grade along with a "pre restored" grade.

 

We all wish that, but there's only so far you can guess. If there's color touch, you know something's being covered up by the coloring, but not exactly what. Is it a crease or a wide scrape? When you scrape it off, how much of the original color will flake off along with the coloring? When there's wet cleaning, what got cleaned off? When there's reglossing, how much of the original gloss was gone? Restoration itself does anywhere from no damage to a lot of damage to a comic, so it's not the pre-restored grade they'd want to give, it's the post-restoration-removal grade, and the most accurate way to give that is a range--best case following removal and worst case. Since you don't know where it'll fall along that range until you actually remove the resto, a worst case grade is the only one you could accurately give, and that's a whole new can of worms--you'd be deliberately selling a lot of books short. I suppose you could put the range on the label, but it could be controversial, I know a lot of people wouldn't like them and would want CGC to just pick a single number.

 

I totally agree with you, we need the grade of a book without the restoration to assign it a decent market value, but I'm not sure it's practical...it'd be nice if someone could work out the details. Maybe Matt Nelson's restored grading scale would work too--the one he proposed in one of Overstreet's grading guides--it sounded compelling when I read it, I forget the details now though, I need to look back at that.

[Hero Restoration]

I feel that a pre restoration grade defeats the purpose. To have people judge a books value on what it looked like before the work, then there wouldn't be much reason for doing it except out of conservation as an out of pocket expense. If you have a 3.0 and spend $500 making it a 7.0 , shouldn't you get at least the 3.0 value plus the cost of the work? I think yes but the sad truth is most of the time it doesn't. You are already discounting the book for being restored so why ding it further by depreciating it with previous grade?

 

Think about it. What other business model do you know of where product is bought, restored and then sold for the original price and not include the cost of repairs? If that’s you and you buy and sell houses, fix them up and sell them for what you bought them for and not include your cost for renovations then I want to buy a house from you. (thumbs u

 

[VintageComics]

Think about it. What other business model do you know of where product is bought, restored and then sold for the original price and not include the cost of repairs? If that’s you and you buy and sell houses, fix them up and sell them for what you bought them for and not include your cost for renovations then I want to buy a house from you. (thumbs u

 

I don't think that's what is being discussed here. What is being is discussed right now is the equivalent of an independent 3rd party coming into a house I want to buy and telling me what repairs have been done to the house before I buy it so that I can make an educated decision in how to value that home to myself.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

Think about it. What other business model do you know of where product is bought, restored and then sold for the original price and not include the cost of repairs? If that’s you and you buy and sell houses, fix them up and sell them for what you bought them for and not include your cost for renovations then I want to buy a house from you.

 

People buy houses to live in; their primary use is functional, or secondarily, as showcase items for your friends and family. People who buy vintage comics--or, since you asked for other examples, vintage guns, books, coins, stamps, action figures, dolls, video games, cards, etc, etc.--don't buy them for function, they buy them for different reasons such as nostalgia, aesthetics, etc. You can show them in your house, but unlike a restored Coke machine, jukebox, or pinball machine, the odds of you having a friend or family member who find comics really cool is much slimmer. Vintage decorative items do well when restored because in addition to their function or the nostalgia, people use them as room centerpieces to decorate their homes...but even those sell for a lot more unrestored. Restoration just doesn't rule deco pieces out as much for people as it does with the nerdier hobbies where people are buying it mostly for themselves and their infrequent meetings with fellow fans they meet online or at shows.

[Hero Restoration]

Think about it. What other business model do you know of where product is bought, restored and then sold for the original price and not include the cost of repairs? If that’s you and you buy and sell houses, fix them up and sell them for what you bought them for and not include your cost for renovations then I want to buy a house from you. (thumbs u

 

I don't think that's what is being discussed here. What is being is discussed right now is the equivalent of an independent 3rd party coming into a house I want to buy and telling me what repairs have been done to the house before I buy it so that I can make an educated decision in how to value that home to myself.

 

 

Oh, opps. My first half read topic fubar.

[etanick]

I feel that a pre restoration grade defeats the purpose. To have people judge a books value on what it looked like before the work, then there wouldn't be much reason for doing it except out of conservation as an out of pocket expense. If you have a 3.0 and spend $500 making it a 7.0 , shouldn't you get at least the 3.0 value plus the cost of the work? I think yes but the sad truth is most of the time it doesn't. You are already discounting the book for being restored so why ding it further by depreciating it with previous grade?

 

Think about it. What other business model do you know of where product is bought, restored and then sold for the original price and not include the cost of repairs? If that’s you and you buy and sell houses, fix them up and sell them for what you bought them for and not include your cost for renovations then I want to buy a house from you. (thumbs u

 

This analogy makes no sense to me. You think you can never lose money on a house just because you put money fixing it? what planet or country is this going on? obviously not on this great US of A in the past 3 years.

 

[Mr. 10%]

 

Why do I consider plods an attractive opportunity for my collecting?

 

(I) You can get a book that esthetically looks really good in hand. Its an enjoyment everytime you take it out to look at it. Encapsulated books are a kind of artwork. There is something extremly sesously appealing to these 30,40, 50 years old picto-pamphlets

(II) Almost everytime you can get a steep discount on plods. 80-90% discount is not unheard of. Even a little dot of something will hammer the book into purple

(iii) If you have a nice plod. Yeah well sure it has been worked on. But in hand you can see that its usually not that bad. Slight can be just a 0,5 grade tick down. Mod and Franken is quite another ballpark. But look for instance at the Pre Robin Bat-Tecs. They are a type of books where plods are becomming ever more liquid. Restored early Tecs are indeed desired in the marketplace. And I can perfectly understand that.

(IV) In terms of *collector value*, - the plod is getting you a bang for your buck by the motherloads.

(V) In terms of investor value, - youre gettin' ... well: close to nil

But who cares? I love my books. I dont need to or plan to put'em up for grabs anytime soon ...