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Clean and Press Bother Anyone?

Started by joe_collector,

220 posts in this topic

joe_collector

joe_collector

Posted
Posted

As I'm a real hound for tracking EBay auctions, it's pretty obvious that a few big sellers are practicing the "clean and press" with their VF raw buys, and turning them into CGC NM 9.4 copies.

 

One seller is so blatant as to virtually announce this for everyone to see, and I see this reaching epidemic proportions in no time.

 

Now usually I wouldn't be worried about this, except that (as ComicWiz pointed out) there is some evidence that 100% of clean and/or pressed books will not hold their "slabbed shape" over the long run. I have no idea on the percentages, but.. insane.gif let's just leave it at that.

 

Does this bother anyone else? I'm about 50/50 on it, as I don't suspect many of the CGC books I currently go after would be affected, and even if they were, my monetary loss would be very low. I'm wondering if I would feel the same way if I was laying down $50K for a NM SA key. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

P.S. Comicwiz and banner - got any more pics and storage info to lay on us?

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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Doesn't much bother me.

 

What does bother me is that only certain people know how to do it well. If the board could get together and agree upon commonly shared goals, I'd say one of our primary goals is to educate everyone on how to effectively clean and press comics so that all our lost potential upgrade capital on our books doesn't filter through only a dozen or so dealers. If it's going to be done, we should ALL know how to do it so we're not leaving money on the table.

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sfilosa

sfilosa

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Now usually I wouldn't be worried about this, except that (as ComicWiz pointed out) there is some evidence that 100% of clean and/or pressed books will not hold their "slabbed shape" over the long run. I have no idea on the percentages, but.. let's just leave it at that.

 

 

But you seem to be missing a very important point. THE LABEL WILL REMAIN THE SAME GRADE.

 

For an honest answer, I'm still much more worried about books being damaged in the CGC case after being shipped twenty times over the next ten years.

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drbanner

drbanner

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My pressing example is currently "in progress" (and other than disproving the notion that you don't have to remove staples to take out a spine roll, it's not worth much!), but I don't think comicwiz had an example of a book that was pressed that later reverted back to it's previous state. Does anyone have actual evidence of this happening, or just conjecture?

 

As I recall, those X-men were purchased slabbed and at the time of purchase were flat, but apparently warped over time? That could be caused by heat, humidity, or drastic changes in either temperature or humidity. My concern (on that same thread, as well as others) had to do with the inner well itself warping from...what I'll guess...was the edge "welding" process, which might cause the book to deform over time to match up with the shape of the well.

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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For an honest answer, I'm still much more worried about books being damaged in the CGC case after being shipped twenty times over the next ten years.

 

Me too, at least at my price point. But there's some scary stuff going on out there at the Bronze/Silver Key VF pressed to CGC 9.4 level. 893whatthe.gif

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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Does anyone have actual evidence of this happening, or just conjecture?

 

I am hesitant to post anything in here, as Rob "Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire!" React will likely jump in to give his 2-cents.

 

Let's just say I recently got offered a few CGC books that weren't up to my standards.... ahem.

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drbanner

drbanner

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Me too, at least at my price point. But there's some scary stuff going on out there at the Bronze/Silver Key VF pressed to CGC 9.4 level. 893whatthe.gif

 

I don't think pressing for an upgrade is all that prominent in silver and newer books, and in fact I don't recall a single example of that happening? Gold is different...the books are a lot thicker with heavier coverstock, making them more amenable to improvement from pressing.

 

I'm a little concerned that there seems to be a "anyone can buy a VF 8.0 and press it up to a NM 9.4" rallying cry around here lately, but as my good friend garganthu pointed out, not every book can be improved via pressing.

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sfilosa

sfilosa

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What does bother me is that only certain people know how to do it well. If the board could get together and agree upon commonly shared goals, I'd say one of our primary goals is to educate everyone on how to effectively clean and press comics so that all our lost potential upgrade capital on our books doesn't filter through only a dozen or so dealers. If it's going to be done, we should ALL know how to do it so we're not leaving money on the table.

 

 

Here, Here.

 

Possible the smartest thing I heard anyone say/write on this board yet. cool.gif

 

OK, who's going to tell us how to PRESS a book the proper way?

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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I'm a little concerned that there seems to be a "anyone can buy a VF 8.0 and press it up to a NM 9.4" rallying cry around here lately, but as my good friend garganthu pointed out, not every book can be improved via pressing.

 

Roughly what percentage of books do you think can be undetectably improved? We should categorize which defects are improvable and which aren't. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

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What does bother me is that only certain people know how to do it well. If the board could get together and agree upon commonly shared goals, I'd say one of our primary goals is to educate everyone on how to effectively clean and press comics so that all our lost potential upgrade capital on our books doesn't filter through only a dozen or so dealers. If it's going to be done, we should ALL know how to do it so we're not leaving money on the table.

 

 

Here, Here.

 

Possible the smartest thing I heard anyone say/write on this board yet. cool.gif

 

OK, who's going to tell us how to PRESS a book the proper way?

 

If you can't beat them....join them?

 

No thanks.

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garthgantu

garthgantu

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I'm very concerned about / disturbed by the "clean, press and resubmit" trend that we're seeing. I also agree that it's only a matter of time, and probably not much time, before this grows to epidemic proportions.

 

* I don't like the idea that a handful of BSDs and affiliated dealers can do what the average collector can't do. I'm not convinced that carefully placing a book under a stack of dictionaries for a month or two has the same effect as what we're seeing in these resubs. As some people have speculated, there may be some significant steps involved (such as applying some small amount of moisture) to ensure that the paper fibers don't revert to their previous state. If this is so, an industrial press seems to be the way to go. I dunno about you, but fitting one of those in my garage would be problematic, and further, there are many people who can't afford such a device in the first place.

 

** Looking at this trend over the long term, I'm seriously concerned that the value of many high grade books will be eroded by a glut of "new" high grade copies. How many "additional" HG copies of say, Batman 1 would it take to effectively reduce the value of all HG copies? Same goes for Hulk 181 - you think you've seen a lot of them in the census so far? I can easily see that total doubling in year or two, if the pressing trend continues.

 

*** As for cleaning, I don't consider this area to even be fully 'resolved' per CGC's guidelines. Apparently, erasing a pen or pencil mark from a cover is not cleaning, even though it inevitably removes part of the original comic (cover inks, gloss, even paper). How is that not resto?

 

All in all, it's a sad situation, and no one seems to be doing anything about it.

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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We should categorize which defects are improvable and which aren't. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

The main "buy areas" are VF key issues with multiple, non-color breaking spine creases and possibly a slight spine roll.

 

A trip to the industrial press (and possibly the wash) and cha-ching, it's 9.4-9.6 time!!

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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OK, who's going to tell us how to PRESS a book the proper way?

 

I don't really know yet, but I know there are two major variants--with/without the cover removed and with/without heat/humidity applied. I'm thinking it's best to have two presses:

 

With heat/humidity

 

Without heat/humidity

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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** Looking at this trend over the long term, I'm seriously concerned that the value of many high grade books will be eroded by a glut of "new" high grade copies.

 

That is a very good point, as many have made their "CGC investment" based on projected numbers, and if a large percentage of the 8.0 to 9.0 copies start popping up as newly-minted 9.4-9.6 CGC books, then it throws the whole equation out of whack.

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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If you can't beat them....join them?

 

No thanks.

 

I hope you enjoy buying your 9.4s back as 9.6s and 9.8s a few years later for multiples of the price you originally sold for! thumbsup2.gifcloud9.gif If you're around the hobby long enough and you buy and sell enough, it's inevitable.

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Rip

Rip

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The pressing doesn't bother me as much as the extensive cleaning. A little eraser sure, I don't mind, but with some of the more extensive examples I've seen here,... I'm not too happy.

 

I'll see if I'll see if I can find some old articles on cleaning and pressing. Maybe others can post the same.(Or maybe thats not such a good idea?) 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

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If you can't beat them....join them?

 

No thanks.

 

I hope you enjoy buying your 9.4s back as 9.6s and 9.8s a few years later for multiples of the price you originally sold for! thumbsup2.gifcloud9.gif If you're around the hobby long enough and you buy and sell enough, it's inevitable.

 

Are you listening to yourself? I understand the implications of this pressing issue....but that doesn't mean I throw my principles out the window. To intentionally press a comic for the purpose of upgrading to receive more $$$ is dishonest, plain and simple.

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