Clean and Press Bother Anyone?

[delekkerste]

This is disconcerting on many levels, but mostly because such actions are motivated primarily on monetarist principles.

 

"Monetarist principles" are based on the theory that the quantity of money in the system determines prices, interest rates and the course of the business cycle. I think you mean that such actions are motivated primarily by GREED, which is something else entirely.

 

Gene

[OldGuy]

That's what they all say, but it's not that easy. Once the heat is off a "hot collectible", the mass exodus starts and it's no longer "cool" to collect comics, much like the mid-90's. The forums turn into a ghost town (like sportscards), no one is ooohing and aaahing over your latest purchase, and suddenly that Plasma TV screen looks like a better buy than the "falling like a rock" CGC book...

 

Anyone who thinks it's "cool" to collect comics now has questionable "cool" standards IMO. 99% of the people I know think it's silly to collect comics and I tend to agree with them.

[comicwiz]

"Monetarist principles" are based on the theory that the quantity of money in the system determines prices, interest rates and the course of the business cycle. I think you mean that such actions are motivated primarily by GREED, which is something else entirely.

 

Gene

 

My use of the word "monetarist" was intended as a way to express "mercantile" or "capitalist" pursuits, and not an embrace of Adam Smith's philosophic and economist institution. And although I do agree with your position that the element of greed, and the widespread potential thereof, may well be dictated by the sort of behaviour we are witnessing. I am speaking on the apparent deviation in value attainment in the comic market; pressing/cleaning and resubmit -- a trend primarily dicatated by capitalist pursuits. And still, there are many similarities between the two, specifically in the case of a growing trend in cosmetically altering books to eke out higher grades, and premiums.

 

During a peak cycle, the prices/values are determined by demand when speaking about the comic book hobby. Demand which is primarily escalated by the nuance of speculators attempting to flip for profit, and collectors who are either enamored with the prospect of a quick cash out, or keep themselves apprised of current valuations for the sake of building on their collections (ie. sell dupes or what they might otherwise not want anymore to subsidize their purchases to fill gaps in their runs).

 

During a downward market trend, or a comic market with softened/slumping sales, the demand and supply are still constant, but the force driving down prices and sales is not so much the fact that their is an "over-supply" of comics, but rather, the facts that specs have decided to cut their losses and cash out, while the collectors are holding on to their lot for the next price surge. During this downward trend, the comic supplies still exist, and so too the demand, but the motivation to flip for an upturn is downplayed by the prospect of dedicating time and costs for the relative and often times unpredictable value attainment, that often results in lower than market yields. The impetus by the relatively conscious few is to either cash out on their lot, and lose their shirt, or to hold, lock-stock and barrel, and in the interim, come up with inventive ways to maintain their foothold on their profit venture.

 

When discussing the theory of "monetarism", and the variations in economy by factors such as inflation, the business cycle is still being driven by consumer demand, but with an over-supply of money. The economic policy of inflation is designed to moderate and regulate the economy in a steady manner to reduce the incidence of riot, chaos -- and worse, starvation. Similarily, it might be argued that the emerging methods of pressing/cleaning are intended as a way to stabilize comic values, and maintain the steady stream of profit enjoyed by collectors/dealers for the most part of the new millenium. Just like consumers who don't preoccupy themselves, or get too concerned with the over-printing of money, so too does the dealer/collector find themselves disinterested with a practice of pressing/cleaning/resubmit, because it is still a practice not currently frowned upon in the comic book grading community.

 

But when the debt-Gods start screaming bloody murder, and the war chest is empty, then maybe too will the collector realize that there just might be something sadly wrong with the cosmetic alteration of their comics, all for the sake of the mighty dollar. It is my contention that the reality will set in when badly pressed books are found to revert back to their original state. And yet, quite like a whisper to a scream, is the thought that there are no guarantees that cosmetically altered books not caught on the restoration radar today, might not recieve a passing grade in the future.

[JohnBull]

IMO, this thread has been a highpoint on these boards and has opened some of the most interesting debate around.

 

Viewpoints have been remarkably different. For myself, I'm undecided at the moment. I like the idea of being able to own nicer books, but the idea of a major value correction does bother me. I buy for my own enjoyment and I have a number of books that I consider are tied up long term in my collection. That said, if I thought that every $100 book I bought today was going to be worth $50 in ten years time, I'd have a problem. I don't expect to make a huge profit or even necessairily to cover myself, but I have no desire to take a bath with my collection.

 

I've set up a poll in that forum, to try and gauge the general feelings of the board as a whole. I've worded the options around the most salient points brought up in this thread, so try and vote the way that is closest to how you feel.

[Rip]

I was hoping someone would set up a poll.

[Zonker]

This is disconcerting on many levels, but mostly because such actions are motivated primarily on monetarist principles. It is remotely worth noting that just because CGC can't detect a bad press job now, this doesn't mean they (or another 3rd-party grading, or professional restoration person) won't be able to in the near future. And if this be the case, could you see an amateur or BAD press jobs recieving the same stigma as amateur resto work, or any resto work on a comic, for that matter? And if my opinion holds true about each one of owning at least one book which has had a bad press job performed on it, the question would be, could we live with that kind of revolting development in future comic grading?

 

I'm not replying to anyone in particular here, I just find the above quote convenient to summarize a strand of thought in this thread: While decrying the greed of the submitters, a lot of us are also fearful of losing the monetary value of our own comics, eh? Look: we all say "Buy the book, not the label." If we cannot detect pressing with current techniques, we're happy with the book, yes? If some future technology is invented to detect pressing, presumably that would not detract from the same visual appeal of the book, yes? It's the same book, just a possibly different label in the future, right?

 

IMO, what has people in an uproar is the transfer of investment risk from the seller of a pressed book to the buyer of a pressed book. Forget about greed-- there's plenty of that to go around on all sides. It's the hidden transfer of investment risk that is the issue.

 

I think Timely had the soundest advice a few pages back: To paraphrase: if you're happy with the books you buy, great. But if you're out for a fat investment return, well... funny books might be the wrong place to look, if for no other reason than the risk of changing fashions in the future (take your pick: resto, pressing, CGC vs some future outfit, new hot characters or genres, 9.8 vs 9.6/9.4/9.2 etc. etc.).

[joe_collector]

Anyone who thinks it's "cool" to collect comics now has questionable "cool" standards IMO. 99% of the people I know think it's silly to collect comics and I tend to agree with them.

 

As usual, the intent of my message goes whizzing over your head like a 747.

 

Go check out the PRETTY BOOK OF THE DAY, the Congratulations on X Buy, the Heritage Auction, and all the other circle-jerk threads to see what I'm getting at. I'm referring to "cool" from a "large and growing hobby" POV, which can change pretty rapidly when the reaper comes calling.

[Red Hook]

Are you trying to tell me I'm not going to live forever?

[OldGuy]

Anyone who thinks it's "cool" to collect comics now has questionable "cool" standards IMO. 99% of the people I know think it's silly to collect comics and I tend to agree with them.

 

As usual, the intent of my message goes whizzing over your head like a 747.

 

Why would a 747 pee on my head?

[drbanner]

...when the reaper comes calling.

 

Two days and counting!!

 

Or, for a more unbiased assessment, click here to see when he's coming to knock on your door!

[Red Hook]

Hey, I'm gonna die on July 6, 2049! Screw you guys, iiiiiii'm...goin' home!

 

[comicwiz]

IMO, what has people in an uproar is the transfer of investment risk from the seller of a pressed book to the buyer of a pressed book. Forget about greed-- there's plenty of that to go around on all sides. It's the hidden transfer of investment risk that is the issue.

 

I'm not sure I agree that the hidden transfer of investment risk is the only issue.

 

Let's say I'm a collector of EC's. I stopped buying GA books during the mid 80's because of the turnaround times, and expense of getting a potential book checked for restoration before purchasing. The reluctance in buying GA books during the heyday of dealers passing off restored books as unrestored (claiming they didn't know better), was because I didn't want to overpay for something I needed to complete my run, and if I haven't yet made it painfully obvious, I don't buy restored comics. This type of collecting trait can also be an example of a buyer/seller transfer of investment risk. Some might even argue, a situation that could be stabilized with the introduction of a 3rd-party grading authority that happens to check for resto as part of its grading service.

 

So, with the advent of CGC, my previous reluctance has been overcome with new buying confidence. CGC has allayed all concerns about purchasing prized GA EC's to complete my run. My buying habits have been primarly to seek out CGC'd copies of EC comics. I don't mind paying more for a slabbed copy, but the fact that I am able to buy a book which I am assured, will be free of any restoration is the kind of informed decision I need to make before plunking down several hundred dollars for each book I need to complete my collection. I am not even remotely concerned with the prospect of ever selling my comic collection. I just don't want to buy or own ANY restored comics.

 

Given this situation, and a specific set of buyer/collecting habits or traits, why should my concern about buying restored books for a premium that are sold to me as unrestored, be any different than buying a book which had been pressed/cleaned (without disclosing any of this information at the point of sale), sold to me for a premium, only to discover years after owning it that the comic has reverted back to its original defective state?

[Rip]

March 30 2070

[Red Hook]

Here are my thoughts. I bid on a CGC book years ago on ebay and was excited about it. I paid for the book and was waiting for it to come in the mail. As I was waiting I realized that the book had previously been graded several grades lower. I already knew this was going on in the hobby but until that moment it was "not my problem." I was all ready to call up the seller and [!@#%^&^] him out for "ripping" me off. I called my comic friend who also knew about these "upgrades" long before most. After a long discusion (and many more since then) I decided to accept the book from the seller and look at it before I did anything rash.

 

When I got the package I decided to block out the knowledge of knowing it's previous grade and to look at the book for what it was now, in my hands. Am I happy with how the book looks now? Is this book in line with other books of the same grade? Do I like this book? Can I accept it knowing it was pressed?

 

My answer to all 4 questions was "yes."

 

After discussing the moral and ethical scenarios with my friend again we came to several conclusions. We realized that we were jealous that this auction dealer was able to do this on such a grand scale. It was our jealousy that caused us to be upset about this new situation. We were pissed off that we could not duplicate this dealers success. It must be nice to be in a position where you can turn a 2K book into a 5K book, and you only have to spend $300 to do it!

 

Lets face face it guys, odds are if you have a CGC book worth more than $700 you may already be the proud owner of a clean/pressed book and you may not even know it! I deal with mostly GA books, but it is far easier to press a thin SA book than it is a thick GA book. Also dirt tends to "soak" into the covers of GA books whereas SA books have that gloss on their covers that allows the dirt wipe away with ease.

 

Again...buy the book for what it looks like in your hands, not what it used to be or what the label says. After all, we know what all books will become in the distant future, long after we are gone...

 

Timely

 

My question for you Timely is this: If you had known and/or realized that the book was a resub before you had put your money down, would you have still done it? I suppose that in the case of certain GA books, there isn't exactly always a wide assortment of a particular book to choose from, and this might have been part of your decision.

 

I think it's different with SA books. I can pass on a SA high end book, knowing that in a lot of cases another of closer or similar grade will come down the pike eventually. In the case of the Daredevil GR 9.6, which originally started out as a 9.4, I would never have sprung for it, knowing that it was a resubmission. So I waited, and lo and behold, a 9.2 appeared on Ebay for a LOT less money, with an older label (a little alarm is starting to go off in my head when I see high profile books with the newer CGC label).....and I went for it. To me it doesn't look $800 worse than that 9.6. And I'm not buying it as an investment to flip anytime soon. I'm totally happy with my book.

 

Now in the case of the 9.6 GR DD 18 on Heritage, (and I'm just going on about these particular books because you can easily go look at these right now) according to sckao's great Green River list, it's the only DD 18 in the pedigree. So that one might be a tougher decision. But I most likely will not chase that one either, as a matter of principle.

 

I was thinking more about this last night and about CGCs responsiblity in noting resubmissions, and I came up with one possible partial solution. What if......

 

it was possible to generate a CGC report of all certified graded books by pedigree, along with their serial numbers. That way for instance I could have a list of all Green River slabbed copies of a particular book, and then refer to that report if a new copy in the pedigree came up for sale. This would really be helpful if the number of copies of each book in the pedigree is known. The pedigree info is already part of each books report. CGC doesn't have to do anything different. It's not even taking a position on the issue. I would love to have a complete list of all Green River, Curator or Pacific Coast slabbed books and their CGC serial numbers. It would at least keep the reslabbers a little bit more honest about resubmitting the high end pedigree books. Maybe Valiantman could figure out a way to pull out that info. Just a thought. I may start compiling a list of all Green River books that have been slabbed with their serial numbers and put it out there for public reference.

[OldGuy]

Hey, I'm gonna die on July 6, 2049! Screw you guys, iiiiiii'm...goin' home!

 

 

I'm a dead man walking! Wednesday, November 30, 2016

 

The real kicker is that even if I quit smoking it'll only add 5 years! Tuesday, April 13, 2021

 

I wonder how many credit cards I can get? Better divorce the wife so she isn't stuck with the bills...... up the life insurance plan........sell comics..........

[Mr. Zipper]

Hey, I'm gonna die on July 6, 2049! Screw you guys, iiiiiii'm...goin' home!

 

 

I'm kicking in 2039 or 2054 depending on whether I'm "normal" or "optimistic." Seems like a pretty big spread.... I'd hate to see what would happen if I plugged in pessimistic. I might be living on borrowed time.

[CGCMINT]

Has anybody e-mailed ejaenter and asked him why he pulled the Daredevil book from eBay and who is Nelson?

 

John

[Red Hook]

I did not email him. I was told by a board member that in all likelihood, once word got out that the book was a resubbed 9.4, it's potential sales value was damaged, at least at that time. It will probably resurface on Heritage or Comiclink, or be sold privately. You will probably not see it on Ebay again anytime soon. My public pleas to him to sell it to me at the original 9.4 price have gone unanswered.

[comicwiz]

My public pleas to him to sell it to me at the original 9.4 price have gone unanswered.

 

Why should Jason have to do this?

 

So is the plan to sit, and wait around, until after he's resubbed copies I sold him of Hulk 181 (9.2) and ASM 129 (9.4) and ask for them back when he's listed them, and recieved 9.4 and 9.6 grades respectively?

[CGCMINT]

Who among the major dealers clean and press their books? If we were able to have Comiclink stop the extra 3% he was charging if anyone used credit cards to purchase his books then shouldn't we boycot the dealers or auction houses who knowingly sell books that are cleaned, pressed and constatntly resubmitted back to CGC for a higher grade? Just a thought.

 

John