Clean and Press Bother Anyone?

[jbud73]

Lots of things come to mind, I read this string, which is really an supplementary to old guys original string last week. Didn't jump in early this time as I wanted to wait and see the discourse articulation go further along abit this time and really get my ideas cemented.

 

- John, FYI - Nelson is Matt Nelson, for more info on who he is and what the issues surounding him and Heritage are - as they have been brought up on this board I suggest you go here. Original Old Guy clean press resub thread.

 

- My uncle was / is a coin collector, after reading Atomic's post I called him. We had a long discussion about the coinee graded collectables market and its potential ramifications to the comic market. He said alot of things, much of which scared me, some things assured me (his refernce to why do you collect? I said cause Im entertained and appreciate the art form, he replied, "then do that - keep one eye open and one ear to the ground, but never let that get in the way of the appreciation.") sound advice. Though he also said that in his opinion the comic collectables market had "come of age" unfortunately coming of age usually brings with it coming of unscruluplous [!@#%^&^].

 

- Does the clean press surprise me? NO. I mean unless you have your head in the sand a $500 device that can make you thousands of dollars in a relatively short period on time? I mean remember the specs. in the early 90s - House is found of saying they entered the market without knowledge with $$$ in theor head. Sorry but the same thing goes here. IT IS NOT HARD TO SUCCESSFULLY ALTER A COMIC BOOK AND REMOVE OR IMPROVE DEFECTS WITH DEVICES THAT ARE READILY ATTAINABLE AND NOT EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE - this according to my local art and book binding supplies store. With this in mind, I think that this is probably being done more than even we speculate.

 

And finally a personal note, on how this effects my collecting ........

 

- I seem to remember a few BSDs being mentioned who were seen to be buying book presses on Ebay with their known Ids, I would assume that BSDs will now do this under shills - but I have a information plea and would appreciate a public response given my current comic collecting situation. After returning to the hobby almost 2 years ago I have suffciently caught up with my first extensive want list. I now find myself in the position where I am going to be purchasing 5-8 major books (for me anyway) most likely CGC slabbed I would assume each book to be in excess of $500 for sure. These are going into my collection and never coming out, So my question to my fellow community of collectors is - who are the major pressing candidates after Ewert and Nelson I want transparency -I think Im entitled to it, so is there a community of collectors or not??. My goal is simple the best book I can get for the least money. And I think points articulated early in the thread come out in my situation as follows.

 

1. If im gonna throw down that kinda money, in lieu of a vacation, a newer car, a better TV etc etc - not in lieu of investing because I view my collecting as a true hobby not an investment. Then do I want to be contributing to something I see as being a minor to major problem in our hobby.

 

2. Do I want to buy these books off unscupulous BSDs who would perform book alteration in this way, does my throwing extra $$$ there way not encourage this.

 

3. Since the books I'm buying are not for resale do I have sleepless nights about getting revert books ala ComicWiz?

 

4. And consider this from a utilitarian aspect - Timely says that he doesnt begrudge the seller because if it can be done well then he just appreciates the book. By that logic therefore, would I not be better served to spend an Xtra 300-700 on a device that has as its goal the same thing? Rather than throw an xtra few thousand to the dealer for doing something I could have done myself. Here is I think the essence of FF's arguement , we buy for our love of the hobby not to flip for profit potential. If we as collectors do this to improve books for our own collection is that not valid? Its a slippery slope and I think even if you take Greed and profit potential out of the equation and substitute it with product value maximization - that is saving money instead of making money - the results are still dubious.

 

In helping my collection do I hurt the overall hobby, what type of collector, or appreciator of comics does that make me??? Somehow I DONT think my uncle would approve.

[garthgantu]

I didn't say that the hobby will die....only CGCs role in it.

 

If nobody else can detect it any better than they can, why would CGC be at risk?

 

And what happens in 5 or 10 years when this type of restoration IS detectable?

A lot of perfectly nice books will be defaced.

Once it's done. It's done.

 

I think the equation is even simpler than that...

- people are submitting HG books to CGC because once in the CGC holder with a number higher than "9.2" on it, the book is worth 2, 5, 10, or even 30x guide value

 

- if enough "mid-grade" copies are cleaned and pressed up to HG status and submitted to CGC, they will "erode" the value of HG copies overall.

 

- if submitters see that simply having a given book in a CGC holder with "9.4" at the top does not garner a sufficient "premium" over the same book in raw form, they will stop sending them in for slabbing.

 

- if people stop sending books in for slabbing, CGC will dry up and blow away.

 

- if cleaned and pressed copies DO 'revert to their natural state' over time, the above formula will occur even faster, as no one (including CGC, apparently) will know which books are 'safe' to buy in CGC high grade.

 

Heck, as it stands, you can't even purchase a Church/Mile High pedigree book safely, since at least a few dozen of those have been cleaned and pressed.

 

What, 8.5 with white pages and a "like new" smell isn't good enough for ya? Just toss it in the ol' industrial press and come back next week!

 

It's makin' me ill...

[garthgantu]

In answer to the question: nope.

 

Everyone repeat after me: Only the speculators will pay.

 

I disagree...see above post.

[joe_collector]

- if cleaned and pressed copies DO 'revert to their natural state' over time, the above formula will occur even faster, as no one (including CGC, apparently) will know which books are 'safe' to buy in CGC high grade.

 

That's my problem in a nutshell. The speculator-based part of the hobby is DOA anyway, so I could care less if it comes sooner rather than later, but I'd hate to see long-time collectors getting stuck with Warpo Books.

[joe_collector]

Everyone repeat after me: Only the speculators will pay.

 

I disagree...see above post.

 

Okay, how about: The Speculators will Pay the Most!

[garthgantu]

CGC has the means to check on books they've already slabbed but choose not to pursue it and let all these comics slip by with higher grades. I find it irreprehensible for a grading company to know of the problem but decides to simply ignore it.

Well said - makes you wonder what the priorities are...I'd say "making money" is #1, followed closely by "don't rock the boat" at # 2.

 

Especially since they could change their procedures to confront the problem. I'll lay you money that if CGC kicked back a couple of these examples then dealers would be more selective on what they resubmit. Wouldn't completely solve the problem but would be a good start.

 

Of course you're right. It's like walking past a resevoir with a couple of leaks sprung in it and thinking "yikes - I'd better get home, flush the toilets and do the wash before the damned thing is completely empty," rather than taking some time and effort to fix the actual problem...

[THE_BEYONDER]

Everyone repeat after me: Only the speculators will pay.

 

I disagree...see above post.

 

Okay, how about: The Speculators will Pay the Most!

 

It's not the collectors or the specs....it's the BSD's that are [!@#%^&^] me off.

 

I can't wait till one of the major players are caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

 

Most of these [!@#%^&^] care about one thing...and one thing only:

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

 

I think it's about time we reminded them about....

The Fear

 

Welcome back to 1993 you greedy little...

[joe_collector]

I can't wait till one of the major players are caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

 

Where have you been?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Where have you been?

 

[joe_collector]

Another thing that bugs me is, assuming you're a BSD who's Pressing for Profit, would you:

 

1) Get that book press humming like an assembly line and make sure they're flat enough for CGC graders?

 

2) Take days, weeks, or whatever it takes to ensure these high-priced collectibles remain in their pressed shape for decades to come?

 

[Red Hook]

My public pleas to him to sell it to me at the original 9.4 price have gone unanswered.

 

Why should Jason have to do this?

 

So is the plan to sit, and wait around, until after he's resubbed copies I sold him of Hulk 181 (9.2) and ASM 129 (9.4) and ask for them back when he's listed them, and recieved 9.4 and 9.6 grades respectively?

 

Sorry Wiz, I was being facetious. Where is that little "I'm being facetious" gremilin when you need one? My fault for not making it clearer in my post.

 

No, I don't want Jason's 9.6 or his 9.4. I like my 9.2. I also like my 8.5s, my 8.0s, my 7.5s, my 7.0s and my 6.0.

[OldGuy]

Another thing that bugs me is, assuming you're a BSD who's Pressing for Profit, would you:

 

1) Get that book press humming like an assembly line and make sure they're flat enough for CGC graders?

 

2) Take days, weeks, or whatever it takes to ensure these high-priced collectibles remain in their pressed shape for decades to come?

 

 

I'll take "Whatever makes me the most $$$$$$ the fastest." for $1,000 Alex.

[joe_collector]

No, I don't want Jason's 9.6 or his 9.4. I like my 9.2. I also like my 8.5s, my 8.0s, my 7.5s, my 7.0s and my 6.0.

 

Sounds like you've got some "pressing business" for later on.

[Aces]

Where have you been?

 

 

Raising money to pay off eBay so you can sell again?

[Red Hook]

Hmmm, if I open up my 9.2, and press it.......nope, not gonna' happen. I'm too lazy, I like the book, it's got a label with a small number on it. I'm content. Oh, the serial number is 0051237011.

 

By the way, I might be nuts, but to me there is a world of difference in taking a raw book, pressing it and sending it in. Again, I'm too lazy and I also know myself, and if I started to get number crazy,....my OCD would take over and I would sell the house for 9.8s

 

What really torques me off is to take a perfectly good 9.4, and still need to [!@#%^&^] with it! I remember someone asking the question on the boards here....HOW DOES JASON EWERT KEEP COMING UP WITH THESE GREAT BOOKS?

 

Now we know. I invite Jason to respond. He won't.

[joe_collector]

HOW DOES JASON EWERT KEEP COMING UP WITH THESE GREAT BOOKS?

 

He keeps a book press in his never-ending copy box?

[Red Hook]

Link to the HOW DO HE DO IT thread - and general awe

[THE_BEYONDER]

Where have you been?

 

 

Raising money to pay off eBay so you can sell again?

 

The worst part is...I only owe them $10.

[Aces]

Where have you been?

 

 

Raising money to pay off eBay so you can sell again?

 

The worst part is...I only owe them $10.

 

Send in a money order.

I had to do that one month when I changed credit cards 2 years ago and forgot to update right away.

 

You can print out a invoice somewhere in your "My eBay" and mail it in with your payment.

[fantastic_four]

And what happened in coins in the 1980's to cause a crash and approx. 10 years of darkness? The same things being noticed and discussed on the comic forums now. The evidence of possible impropriety. Coins switching grade, artificial toning, resubmissions after obvious restoration, slabbed fake coins, dealers owning their own grading service and conflicts of interest, lawsuits, arrests, and bad press on all of the mentioned.

I hate to say this but it all seems to be a repeat of what has happened before with many of the same players involved to boot. Maybe getting some input from some of the long-time coin hobbyists would be helpful for gaining some inciteful opinions.

 

Agreed, although the point is slightly off-topic since this thread is about cleaning and pressing. Isn't light cleaning an accepted practice in coins? The people who posted in the threads we recently started in the coin forums said it is.