Clean and Press Bother Anyone?

[fantastic_four]

Great articles, thanks!!

[fantastic_four]

To imply that we "live with it" and actually try to find ways to duplicate the procedure smacks of hypocracy. I can not believe that the suggestion was even made. Might as well invite Hammer back and let him show everyone how it's done. Greed does weird things to people apparently.....

 

Hypocrisy? Explain how it's hypocritical, please...and then tell me what you do for a living so I can point out the things not being done in your field so I can make you feel professionally lazy and uncaring about the state of YOUR art. I'm not a comics professional myself...but YOU'RE not one either, and it ticks me off when amateurs blindly criticize professionals from a position of near-total ignorance. THAT'S the definition of hypocrisy.

 

I can not believe that some people don't comprehend the chaotic reality of entropy. Some tasks are beyond the realm of practicality, if not possibility. I would like for the police to catch every criminal, for war to never plague the planet again, for racism to be eradicated from human consciousness, and for every press, cleaning, and trim to be detected by certification companies in all hobbies everywhere. Until all that is possible, I try to live with the limits of human achievement...but if you're unable to do that, that's fine, enjoy your frustration with this imperfect world you're forced to live in.

 

Is minor cleaning and pressing possible to catch? Quite possibly. Has anyone figured out a way to prove it? No. The hobby could benefit from any constructive suggestions you might wish to contribute.

[Mushroom]

Hmmm, if I open up my 9.2, and press it.......nope, not gonna' happen. I'm too lazy, I like the book, it's got a label with a small number on it. I'm content. Oh, the serial number is 0051237011.

 

So will these early CGC's now earn multiples on multiples??????

[Rip]

Agreed, although the point is slightly off-topic since this thread is about cleaning and pressing. Isn't light cleaning an accepted practice in coins? The people who posted in the threads we recently started in the coin forums said it is.

Thanks I'll see if I have more articles.

But...regarding the above, last I checked cleaning was a no no in sports cards.

[fantastic_four]

I would love to have a complete list of all Green River, Curator or Pacific Coast slabbed books and their CGC serial numbers. It would at least keep the reslabbers a little bit more honest about resubmitting the high end pedigree books. Maybe Valiantman could figure out a way to pull out that info.

 

Valiantman can't pull it because it's not in the Census web pages, and I asked CGC last year if I could work with their developer to pull pedigree data to be used in an article or Matt Nelson's pedigree book. They said they didn't want to release it publicly because many pedigreed books are known to be owned by specific collectors, and that if it was known what the grades were, it would violate their privacy and expose more information that those collectors wanted exposed. I haven't been able to figure out a negative example of what they meant by that, but I guess it makes general sense. Or does it?

[THE_BEYONDER]

I can not believe that some people don't comprehend the chaotic reality of entropy. Some tasks are beyond the realm of practicality, if not possibility. I would like for the police to catch every criminal, for war to never plague the planet again, for racism to be eradicated from human consciousness, and for every press, cleaning, and trim to be detected by certification companies in all hobbies everywhere. Until all that is possible, I try to live with the limits of human achievement...but if you're unable to do that, that's fine, enjoy your frustration with this imperfect world you're forced to live in.

 

 

What.... exactly ...are you trying to say?

 

This thread isn't about whether or not cleaning and pressing can be detected....but whether or not you support the practice.

 

Isn't it?

[comicwiz]

Sorry Wiz, I was being facetious. Where is that little "I'm being facetious" gremilin when you need one? My fault for not making it clearer in my post.

 

No, I don't want Jason's 9.6 or his 9.4. I like my 9.2. I also like my 8.5s, my 8.0s, my 7.5s, my 7.0s and my 6.0.

 

No worries redhook.

 

I kind of suspected you were kidding, but in the order of CGCMINT's comments and then your reply, I thought I was actually going to have to get involved in moderating a compensation strategy for victims of ruthless comic sellers, and their pressing/cleaning habits!

[fantastic_four]

Thanks I'll see if I have more articles.

But...regarding the above, last I checked cleaning was a no no in sports cards.

 

Isn't light cleaning and pressing be just as impossible to detect in cards as it is in comics? I don't know, but I would think it would be.

[fantastic_four]

This thread isn't about whether or not cleaning and pressing can be detected....but whether or not you support the practice.

 

I'm against people sneezing into the open air at the mall. How about you?

[THE_BEYONDER]

This thread isn't about whether or not cleaning and pressing can be detected....but whether or not you support the practice.

 

I'm against people sneezing into the open air at the mall. How about you?

 

Are you going to make a point?

 

Please don't give me the " there's nothing we can do about it....so we might as well accept it " argument again.

[comicwiz]

Lots of things come to mind, I read this string, which is really an supplementary to old guys original string last week. Didn't jump in early this time as I wanted to wait and see the discourse articulation go further along abit this time and really get my ideas cemented.

 

- John, FYI - Nelson is Matt Nelson, for more info on who he is and what the issues surounding him and Heritage are - as they have been brought up on this board I suggest you go here. Original Old Guy clean press resub thread.

 

- My uncle was / is a coin collector, after reading Atomic's post I called him. We had a long discussion about the coinee graded collectables market and its potential ramifications to the comic market. He said alot of things, much of which scared me, some things assured me (his refernce to why do you collect? I said cause Im entertained and appreciate the art form, he replied, "then do that - keep one eye open and one ear to the ground, but never let that get in the way of the appreciation.") sound advice. Though he also said that in his opinion the comic collectables market had "come of age" unfortunately coming of age usually brings with it coming of unscruluplous [!@#%^&^].

 

- Does the clean press surprise me? NO. I mean unless you have your head in the sand a $500 device that can make you thousands of dollars in a relatively short period on time? I mean remember the specs. in the early 90s - House is found of saying they entered the market without knowledge with $$$ in theor head. Sorry but the same thing goes here. IT IS NOT HARD TO SUCCESSFULLY ALTER A COMIC BOOK AND REMOVE OR IMPROVE DEFECTS WITH DEVICES THAT ARE READILY ATTAINABLE AND NOT EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE - this according to my local art and book binding supplies store. With this in mind, I think that this is probably being done more than even we speculate.

 

And finally a personal note, on how this effects my collecting ........

 

- I seem to remember a few BSDs being mentioned who were seen to be buying book presses on Ebay with their known Ids, I would assume that BSDs will now do this under shills - but I have a information plea and would appreciate a public response given my current comic collecting situation. After returning to the hobby almost 2 years ago I have suffciently caught up with my first extensive want list. I now find myself in the position where I am going to be purchasing 5-8 major books (for me anyway) most likely CGC slabbed I would assume each book to be in excess of $500 for sure. These are going into my collection and never coming out, So my question to my fellow community of collectors is - who are the major pressing candidates after Ewert and Nelson I want transparency -I think Im entitled to it, so is there a community of collectors or not??. My goal is simple the best book I can get for the least money. And I think points articulated early in the thread come out in my situation as follows.

 

1. If im gonna throw down that kinda money, in lieu of a vacation, a newer car, a better TV etc etc - not in lieu of investing because I view my collecting as a true hobby not an investment. Then do I want to be contributing to something I see as being a minor to major problem in our hobby.

 

2. Do I want to buy these books off unscupulous BSDs who would perform book alteration in this way, does my throwing extra $$$ there way not encourage this.

 

3. Since the books I'm buying are not for resale do I have sleepless nights about getting revert books ala ComicWiz?

 

4. And consider this from a utilitarian aspect - Timely says that he doesnt begrudge the seller because if it can be done well then he just appreciates the book. By that logic therefore, would I not be better served to spend an Xtra 300-700 on a device that has as its goal the same thing? Rather than throw an xtra few thousand to the dealer for doing something I could have done myself. Here is I think the essence of FF's arguement , we buy for our love of the hobby not to flip for profit potential. If we as collectors do this to improve books for our own collection is that not valid? Its a slippery slope and I think even if you take Greed and profit potential out of the equation and substitute it with product value maximization - that is saving money instead of making money - the results are still dubious.

 

In helping my collection do I hurt the overall hobby, what type of collector, or appreciator of comics does that make me??? Somehow I DONT think my uncle would approve.

 

jbud

 

I think you've officially dethroned me of my custom title with this post

 

Very interesting post. You've raised some very good points.

 

The only way I see the the hobby ridding itself from the current problem of sellers pressing/cleaning/resubmitting is if either:

 

i) HEY! SELLERS! LEAVE THOSE BOOKS ALONE! (sung to the tune of Pink Floyd's "The Wall")

 

ii) collectors stop paying multiple guide prices for NM or better comics.

 

I just can't see either of these two idea flying with collectors or dealers, so just as your uncle advised, keep your eyes open, and your ears to the ground.

 

My feeling is that the funs just begun....

[fantastic_four]

Are you going to make a point?

 

Please don't give me the " there's nothing we can do about it....so we might as well accept it " argument again.

 

Here's a point--I recommend you do one of the following:

 

• Start studying the science of forensic evaluation to push the envelope on restoration detection techniques.

-- OR --

• Go seal yourself inside a plastic bubble.

The choice is yours. ENJOY! Personally, I educate myself as far as I'm able, contribute what I can, and choose not to worry about things beyond my own or anyone else's control.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Go seal yourself inside a plastic bubble.

 

Blue or Purple label?

[fantastic_four]

Blue or Purple label?

 

Whichever one makes you SMILY and HAPPY!

[Red Hook]

I would love to have a complete list of all Green River, Curator or Pacific Coast slabbed books and their CGC serial numbers. It would at least keep the reslabbers a little bit more honest about resubmitting the high end pedigree books. Maybe Valiantman could figure out a way to pull out that info.

 

Valiantman can't pull it because it's not in the Census web pages, and I asked CGC last year if I could work with their developer to pull pedigree data to be used in an article or Matt Nelson's pedigree book. They said they didn't want to release it publicly because many pedigreed books are known to be owned by specific collectors, and that if it was known what the grades were, it would violate their privacy and expose more information that those collectors wanted exposed. I haven't been able to figure out a negative example of what they meant by that, but I guess it makes general sense. Or does it?

 

Really, what is the real downside to making that info public? I am not asking for names and addresses. Just give me the dang number and the grade. That excuse, with all due respect to the team at CGC, sounds lame, and reminds me of the reasons Hammer gives for running private auctions. What is the problem here?

 

Just substitute "potential press-and-resubmitters" for "collectors" into their reasoning and it finally starts to make sense.

[Rip]

Isn't light cleaning and pressing be just as impossible to detect in cards as it is in comics? I don't know, but I would think it would be.

Its a difficult area no doubt, but the best I can tell you is ....

If I feel that a book looks "to questionable" I don't buy it.

Now what makes a book questionable.

This isn't a 100% rule but here's some things that raise my eyebrows

 

1. Smells funny chemical smell...

2. (Seeing Unusual patterns in the light....)

a. (Uniformity, streaks)

3. (Laking reflectivity in blacks)

4. (White cover, darker pgs)

5. Light faded brown smudging where there was once foxing

6. Laking intensity of any color

7. Check staples

 

On pressing, for starters

1. Ink transfer on all inside pags

2. very flat..no slight bumps raises etc.

3 Check staple holes etc...

 

I'm not the ulimate expert here but hopefully, these might help a little

I'd rather be proactive rather than do nothing.

[AtomicPaul-migration]

 

Quote:

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And what happened in coins in the 1980's to cause a crash and approx. 10 years of darkness? The same things being noticed and discussed on the comic forums now. The evidence of possible impropriety. Coins switching grade, artificial toning, resubmissions after obvious restoration, slabbed fake coins, dealers owning their own grading service and conflicts of interest, lawsuits, arrests, and bad press on all of the mentioned.

I hate to say this but it all seems to be a repeat of what has happened before with many of the same players involved to boot. Maybe getting some input from some of the long-time coin hobbyists would be helpful for gaining some inciteful opinions.

 

 

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Agreed, although the point is slightly off-topic since this thread is about cleaning and pressing. Isn't light cleaning an accepted practice in coins? The people who posted in the threads we recently started in the coin forums said it is.

 

 

 

As of yet, there is very little cross-over grading (the resubmission of an item already graded by one company to another in hopes of realizing a better grade or getting back a product tat now can be sold for a higher price) in the comics hobby.

If and as more comic grading services appear that bear some collector weight in rendering opinion, this practice will develop.

 

There is an entire section of enterpreneurs that pour through PSA 5s and 6s, looking for signs that a certain type of card, with the right "correctible" attributes may cross-over to an SGC 80 slab and bring them the associated dollar gain with that eventuality realized.

There are others that examine SGC 60s, looking for correctible triats that they can smoke by PSA for a '7' return once they apply their mechanics touch. The problems in cards start when certain cards graded by one company will not cross-over to another's company criteria cue to a more rigorous standard of what is restoration and what isn't!

For instance, for the longest time, PSA would grade cards cut off of a sheet or promotional section if within their accepted parameters of acceptible size. SGC would not, regardless of the size because they are advanced enough to be able to detect factory mechanized edge cuts from those of the home mechanics.

So here is an instance where you have thousands of Tiger Woods, Shaq, Jordan, Griffey, etc. "promotional" and "special issued" cards, pre-rookie, rookie, and otherwise that PSA and the other 100 or so grading services would readily grade, trading at a combined tens of millions of dollars on Ebay, and as of yet, according to the standards of SGC, who would not slab them, are not legitimately unaltered cards!

Matter of factly, the first PSA submission and most famous slabbed card in the world, the PSA 8 Honus Wagner NM/MT card has a long standing, historic stigma about it possibly being altered. From what talk is, it's uncertain whether SGC would slab that card.

Everything was fine and dandy with the introduction of a new grading service, the first or second ones into a particular hobby. Then the problems started when there was more than 1 or 2 reputable, respected grading service in a hobby and then the discrepancies were noted and receive widespread publicity.

There are many, many anecdotal accounts of fake, altered and horribly misgraded material being found in the slabs of early grading services in both cards and coins once material started to be re-submitted on a regular basis to see how well a piece crossed-over to grading by another newer grading service.

The internet is littered with accounts of lawsuits, criminal actions, FTC rulings, etc, etc.. All you have to do for details is delve into the Internet search engines.

[Timely]

Here are my thoughts. I bid on a CGC book years ago on ebay and was excited about it. I paid for the book and was waiting for it to come in the mail. As I was waiting I realized that the book had previously been graded several grades lower. I already knew this was going on in the hobby but until that moment it was "not my problem." I was all ready to call up the seller and [!@#%^&^] him out for "ripping" me off. I called my comic friend who also knew about these "upgrades" long before most. After a long discusion (and many more since then) I decided to accept the book from the seller and look at it before I did anything rash.

 

When I got the package I decided to block out the knowledge of knowing it's previous grade and to look at the book for what it was now, in my hands. Am I happy with how the book looks now? Is this book in line with other books of the same grade? Do I like this book? Can I accept it knowing it was pressed?

 

My answer to all 4 questions was "yes."

 

After discussing the moral and ethical scenarios with my friend again we came to several conclusions. We realized that we were jealous that this auction dealer was able to do this on such a grand scale. It was our jealousy that caused us to be upset about this new situation. We were pissed off that we could not duplicate this dealers success. It must be nice to be in a position where you can turn a 2K book into a 5K book, and you only have to spend $300 to do it!

 

Lets face face it guys, odds are if you have a CGC book worth more than $700 you may already be the proud owner of a clean/pressed book and you may not even know it! I deal with mostly GA books, but it is far easier to press a thin SA book than it is a thick GA book. Also dirt tends to "soak" into the covers of GA books whereas SA books have that gloss on their covers that allows the dirt wipe away with ease.

 

Again...buy the book for what it looks like in your hands, not what it used to be or what the label says. After all, we know what all books will become in the distant future, long after we are gone...

 

Timely

 

My question for you Timely is this: If you had known and/or realized that the book was a resub before you had put your money down, would you have still done it? I suppose that in the case of certain GA books, there isn't exactly always a wide assortment of a particular book to choose from, and this might have been part of your decision.

 

 

Well since then I have bought others that I already knew were resubs. I was able to see the before and after effects. I always judge the book on how it looks. If I see a resub (that I know has been cleaned/prssed) that has not improved visually but got upgraded a level or two why buy it? then you are just paying for the label and no improvement.

 

The resub game does not always have winner on the sellers side. I bought a book that was 9.0 and was sold for $4600 originally. It came up for sale again months later as a 9.2 and I bought it for exactly $4600! I felt like I got a free upgrade!

 

Timely

[fantastic_four]

I agree with proactivity. Let's keep working...here are some comments on your current lists:

 

• 1. Smells funny chemical smell... Dry cleaning doesn't leave this
• 2. (Seeing Unusual patterns in the light....) What kinds of patterns? How do you know this isn't caused by unintentional wear?
• a. (Uniformity, streaks) How do you know this isn't caused by unintentional wear?
• 3. (Laking reflectivity in blacks) How do you know this isn't caused by unintentional wear?
• 4. (White cover, darker pgs) I think this one could definitely be an indicator on some books, good thinking, although it's out the door on anything with better than offwhite pages. However, it's circumstantial evidence, not direct, and mostly useful as a reason to keep looking for other indicators of cleaning.
• 5. Light faded brown smudging where there was once foxing How do you know there used to be foxing where the smudging is?
• 6. Laking intensity of any color How do you know this isn't caused by unintentional wear or sunlight exposure?
• 7. Check staples What if they're removed and replaced with extreme care using magnification so as not to widen the original holes or get repositioned off of the original paper grooves?

On pressing, for starters

• 1. Ink transfer on all inside pags How do you know this isn't unintentional and simply a result of a comic having been on the bottom of a stack of comics?
• 2. very flat..no slight bumps raises etc. Doesn't this describe most every comic kept in extremely good shape with minimal handling and no specific pressing?
• 3 Check staple holes etc... ( see point 7. comments above )

[Timely]

4. (White cover, darker pgs) [/b] I think this one could definitely be an indicator on some books, good thinking, although it's out the door on anything with better than offwhite pages. However, it's circumstantial evidence, not direct, and mostly useful as a reason to keep looking for other indicators of cleaning.

 

Actually this one would not work an most warehouse or file copies as they have white covers but tanned, darker pages.

 

Timely