Spidey #50 Splash

[Galactus]

Boy, is that the truth. As I said in another thread, I have my own thoughts about the faux, manipulated "reality" that's presented, but it looks like people are eating it up, unquestioningly.

 

The cloak and dagger culture that permeates the top end of the hobby makes such things possible. The more transparent the hobby becomes, the less susceptible it will be to the manipulations of a few.

 

Manipulations will always occur as long as someone has enough money to thrown at any segment of our marketplace. All it takes is someone inclined to spend serious $$ and pay ever increasing prices on whatever comes onto the market. Unfortunately no amount of tranparency will prevent that.

 

My 2cents anyway.

 

[CollectingFool]

The cloak and dagger culture that permeates the top end of the hobby makes such things possible. The more transparent the hobby becomes, the less susceptible it will be to the manipulations of a few.

 

Not true. There will always be a barrier between most collectors and those "few" you mention. No website or electronic social network will ever be able to remove it. The ONLY way to chip away at it is through years of cultivating relationships with more knowledgeable collectors and doing your own research. Most times all these tools that are supposed to make things "more transparent" can also be used to promote agendas and disseminate misinformation more effectively. Transparency in this hobby or any other is an illusion. There's just too much money to be made.

 

 

 

[markseifert]

Transparency in this hobby or any other is an illusion. There's just too much money to be made.

 

Would you disagree that the CGC era (problems though it has), the census, GPA, and the sharply rising use of public auctions in that market has facilitated substantial growth in that aspect of the hobby?

 

To the issues your overall point raises, I will say this -- It applies to a cable tv show covering a formerly niche area of the hobby as well as it applies to all aspects of the business of comics: Comics are now thoroughly mainstream, we got the world we wanted. Now we figure out how we're going to live in it.

[Bronty]

Transparency in this hobby or any other is an illusion. There's just too much money to be made.

 

Would you disagree that the CGC era (problems though it has), the census, GPA, and the sharply rising use of public auctions in that market has facilitated substantial growth in that aspect of the hobby?

.

 

growth in what? transparency? you don't even know what you're bidding on anymore. has it been dry cleaned, pressed, micro trimmed.... who knows WTF you are getting. if you are looking to buy an unrestored book all you know is that it has a blue label. its not transparent at all and given the gulf between blue and purple label prices if anything its gotten worse not gotten better, because as the man said there is too much money to be made.

[ShaneTurgeon]

There are upper echelons in every hobby, everywhere. It's not unique to comic art. But the one thing i have found is that even if you're not playing on those levels, *most* people who are are friendly and engaging enough so long as you approach them the same way. I see it in so many hobbies i participate in: the supposedly new or little guy with raging jealousy issues and a huge chip on their shoulder that they can't afford to play with the big boys and the bottom line is, that attitude won't get you very far, in life or hobby relationships. Be friendly, courteous and engaging and you'll see how many of these secret doors you might unlock.

 

When you throw in the faux reality situation of "reality TV" it just clouds things further. But no matter how fairly a topic is presented on TV, it's still soooo far from the reality of the situation that it's going to give people the wrong idea of how things are done. When a culture you're a part of gets thrown into that spotlight, it's easy to see how much BS goes on because you know it; you live it every day.

 

Let's just hope this program strives to serve OA collecting a lot better than the tattoo reality shows have for that industry. Now THERE'S a tonne of plop to watch. As a tattoo (and toy and comic) shop owner, i can assure you, the world of tattooing is not what you see on LA Ink.

[Nexus]

The cloak and dagger culture that permeates the top end of the hobby makes such things possible. The more transparent the hobby becomes, the less susceptible it will be to the manipulations of a few.

 

Not true. There will always be a barrier between most collectors and those "few" you mention. No website or electronic social network will ever be able to remove it. The ONLY way to chip away at it is through years of cultivating relationships with more knowledgeable collectors and doing your own research. Most times all these tools that are supposed to make things "more transparent" can also be used to promote agendas and disseminate misinformation more effectively. Transparency in this hobby or any other is an illusion. There's just too much money to be made.

 

 

 

Damn, I thought I was cynical:P

 

I agree that it's necessary to invest the time, don't expect to have anything handed to you right away. But it starts with being able to think critically. Scratch beneath the surface, don't take anything at face value, etc. This TV show is a perfect example.

 

 

 

 

[Nexus]

Transparency in this hobby or any other is an illusion. There's just too much money to be made.

 

Would you disagree that the CGC era (problems though it has), the census, GPA, and the sharply rising use of public auctions in that market has facilitated substantial growth in that aspect of the hobby?

 

I would agree that CGC has changed the comics hobby dramatically. But given all the dealer/auction house shenanigans, I don't see where there's any increased transparency, either.

 

The real parallel between slabbed comics and OA is the money. And the attitudes of dealers and collectors. The high grade slab segment of the hobby makes for a relevant case study. Dealers introduce crack-press-resub, CGC tacitly approves, and once collectors see the money that can be made, jump on the bandwagon. There are a few who speak out, but most are happy to cannibalize their own hobby.

 

As well, any malfeasance in the OA hobby usually has a blind eye turned to it. Either because there's money involved or fear of being ostracized from the "big kids' sandbox". Or flat-out complicity.

 

Best of luck to newbies!

 

[comicartcom]

the concept that people think they can get people to reveal what they don't want to just so that other people can have the information is insane. What are you going to go, tell Eric Roberts that if he wants to spend his money he must tell everyone about a deal he wants to keep private??

 

complete transparency will never happen in collectibles or any other business that is not required to file documents with the FTC on an annualized basis. Why should anyone tell you what they don't want to anyway?? Did you ever hear of "privacy" ??

 

All you can do is take the information you have available to make your decisions, and expect that you will never have all the information there is.

 

 

[markseifert]

growth in what? transparency? you don't even know what you're bidding on anymore. has it been dry cleaned, pressed, micro trimmed.... who knows WTF you are getting. if you are looking to buy an unrestored book all you know is that it has a blue label. its not transparent at all and given the gulf between blue and purple label prices if anything its gotten worse not gotten better, because as the man said there is too much money to be made.

 

I would suggest that there is dramatically more information available to individuals about the books they are buying and their history than there was 20 years ago.

 

Does this have bad consequences as well? It does. But in the hands of a community like this one, it has vastly more good consequences, in my opinion.

 

On a smaller scale, take what's going on at CAF on the OA side of the hobby. Knowledgeable hobbyists sharing some of the contents of their collections, all in one place. It's turned into an outstanding community effort and resource.

 

I'm not suggesting that newbies shouldn't have to put the work in. I'd simply say that the ongoing process of creating a culture where our history isn't something to be jealously guarded is good.

[markseifert]

What are you going to go, tell Eric Roberts that if he wants to spend his money he must tell everyone about a deal he wants to keep private??

 

Your point about privacy is an excellent one, though Roberts is perhaps a poor example. In a very friendly email exchange I had with him, he referred to his dealing in the hobby as an open book.

[markseifert]

There are upper echelons in every hobby, everywhere. It's not unique to comic art. But the one thing i have found is that even if you're not playing on those levels, *most* people who are are friendly and engaging enough so long as you approach them the same way. I see it in so many hobbies i participate in: the supposedly new or little guy with raging jealousy issues and a huge chip on their shoulder that they can't afford to play with the big boys and the bottom line is, that attitude won't get you very far, in life or hobby relationships. Be friendly, courteous and engaging and you'll see how many of these secret doors you might unlock.

 

Also a fair point.

[comicartcom]

What are you going to go, tell Eric Roberts that if he wants to spend his money he must tell everyone about a deal he wants to keep private??

 

Your point about privacy is an excellent one, though Roberts is perhaps a poor example. In a very friendly email exchange I had with him, he referred to his dealing in the hobby as an open book.

 

when Eric Roberst says his dealing is an open book, I'm sure what he means is that he is well known as an honest person and doesn't play shenanigans. I doubt very much that he publicizes what he has paid for anything unless there is a very specific benefit related to that item or the prospect that the information is going to help him buy something else he's trying to get. But I'm sure that regardless of my mentioning Eric, you fully understand the gist of what I said - that it is of no benefit generally speaking for anyone to reveal what business they are engaging in largely because the hobby is competitive and helping your competitor is, if anything, anathema to your own interests.

 

The comic book price guide in itself is no better. Comic book dealers all have a conflict-of-interest in revealing the true market, ergo - items that sell very well at higher prices are not reflected properly and books that sell poorly at guide values are equally not reflected properly. Guide values in general only go up, and not down. It isn't a properly transparent vehicle by any measure.

[Nexus]

the concept that people think they can get people to reveal what they don't want to just so that other people can have the information is insane. What are you going to go, tell Eric Roberts that if he wants to spend his money he must tell everyone about a deal he wants to keep private??

 

complete transparency will never happen in collectibles or any other business that is not required to file documents with the FTC on an annualized basis. Why should anyone tell you what they don't want to anyway?? Did you ever hear of "privacy" ??

 

 

Was this in reply to anything I wrote? Or just a reply to the thread, in general? Either way, I can see that we are all looking at this issue from slightly different perspectives.

 

I'm not suggesting that Eric Roberts (or anyone else) make public any of their private deals. That's their business.

 

But when someone's "private business" is to defraud the hobby, it'd be nice if someone who knew about it spoke up. That's mostly what I meant. Like the counterfeit movie poster scandal you helped to break and publicize.

 

All you can do is take the information you have available to make your decisions, and expect that you will never have all the information there is.

 

 

(thumbs u

 

 

[comicartcom]

my comments are in general Felix

[markseifert]

that it is of no benefit generally speaking for anyone to reveal what business they are engaging in largely because the hobby is competitive and helping your competitor is, if anything, anathema to your own interests.

 

Yep, I do understand that even excluding financial details it boils down to knowledge = power.

 

But -- I think I've been cantankerous enough for one day. I don't think we've met but I've seen your ads around forever and I appreciate your perspective and the interesting conversation. (thumbs u

[batman_fan]

Joe is holding the splash to ASM 43 and under Mankuta's arm, (on top of the 50 splash), is the splash to ASM 47. Hmm, seems to be a pattern here. I'm going to guess that the piece that Mankuta is holding up is the splash to ASM 39?

 

Good catch. Very impressive to see so many large Romita splashes in one place.

 

Someone above said Mike B no longer owns the ASM 50 splash. Do the other ASM splashes in that photo belong to other collectors as well?

 

when the top collector of any micro-area of a hobby is selling, it should be a message to the rest of you about what that person feels about the hobby that is causing him to sell.

 

#1 he probably sells because he feels the price has peaked - I agree

#2 he probably also feels that it is not wise to continue holding such property - I also agree

 

guys like Mike who know what they're doing are in the best position to be able to judge such situations and I think his message is clear..

 

It's been going on for a couple of years now:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2765909&fpart=1

 

I wondered the same thing as you back then. But it has been two years, and he still appears as active as ever in his business. He may have other reasons (as Galactus notes). He just seems like an OA lifer to me. If he was really that worried about the market, I would think he'd try to move everything, not just Romita art. And yet he still buys. Anyhow, we're all just speculating...look forward to hearing what he has to say on the show.

 

What i find surprising is how few pieces have actually gone. i would have throught that the majority of the great splash pages would have sold if nothing else.

 

prices on the splashes are NOT cheap

 

not a slam on Mike, just he isn't giving the stuff away which I wouldn't expect him too do.

[CollectingFool]

I would suggest that there is dramatically more information available to individuals about the books they are buying and their history than there was 20 years ago.

Does this have bad consequences as well? It does. But in the hands of a community like this one, it has vastly more good consequences, in my opinion.

On a smaller scale, take what's going on at CAF on the OA side of the hobby. Knowledgeable hobbyists sharing some of the contents of their collections, all in one place. It's turned into an outstanding community effort and resource.

I'm not suggesting that newbies shouldn't have to put the work in. I'd simply say that the ongoing process of creating a culture where our history isn't something to be jealously guarded is good.

 

Wow, I believe the exact opposite of everything you just said.

 

[Nexus]

Do you agree with Profiles' appraisal of Steven Fishler's FRANKENSTEIN 6-sheet at $3M?

 

People keep saying every time Joe states a number that it's an "appraisal". From what I've noticed he says two different things:

 

"I believe this will go for between $X.XX and $X.XX"

 

That's an appraisal. Then he says stuff like:

 

"In the right situation this could go as high as $X.XX or even $X.XX"

 

That's the hype and bull to entice the consignor and add drama. Don't confuse the hype with the somewhat realistic estimate.

 

Given that Joe/Profiles are presented as experts, any number they say is going to be taken as an appraisal. "$3M" is hype and bull but I doubt Metropolis is complaining about it

 

In one of the early episodes (I think it was regarding the Mary Poppins bag), Joe says that he usually gives intentionally low estimates. Interesting that this didn't happen here.

 

Predictably, here's a de facto press release via Scoop:

 

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/public/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=34&s=260&ai=102537

Metropolis Collectibles co-owners Stephen Fishler and Vincent Zurzolo appeared in the fourth episode of SyFy’s new series Hollywood Treasure during which auctioneer and show star Joe Maddalena pursued his quest to find the most valuable movie poster in the world.

 

In addition to dealing with different consignments related to the 1933 RKO Pictures original King Kong, the episode “Joe Goes Ape” also showcased Fishler’s original and apparently one-of-a-kind Frankenstein six-sheet, which Maddalena appraised as the world’s most valuable movie poster.

The massive, evocative piece was tagged between $2 million and $3 million.

 

The company is slated to appear in the new program’s ninth episode in early December as well. The entire fourth episode can be viewed online.

 

The main support for the poster's value is that it was appraised on a TV show. Clearly, this show could have a lot of influence for our hobby. Look forward to the OA episode.

 

 

 

[markseifert]

I would suggest that there is dramatically more information available to individuals about the books they are buying and their history than there was 20 years ago.

Does this have bad consequences as well? It does. But in the hands of a community like this one, it has vastly more good consequences, in my opinion.

On a smaller scale, take what's going on at CAF on the OA side of the hobby. Knowledgeable hobbyists sharing some of the contents of their collections, all in one place. It's turned into an outstanding community effort and resource.

I'm not suggesting that newbies shouldn't have to put the work in. I'd simply say that the ongoing process of creating a culture where our history isn't something to be jealously guarded is good.

 

Wow, I believe the exact opposite of everything you just said.

 

Huh. Given that, why do you participate in CAF?

 

(edited to add -- love the Raboy, and the Toth, and Hughes, and Bolland. (thumbs u We must be miscommunicating, because your CAF would seem to be the very spirit of someone sharing art and information with the hobby at large (thumbs u )

[comicartcom]

Huh. Given that, why do you participate in CAF?

 

people have asked me stuff like this before because they think that I am too critical of the comic hobby. I am critical - yes, however, the answer to such questions is this:

 

everybody has their reasons for being involved in something.. do they have to be the same reasons as yours??

 

so I have my reasons. Ruben has his. Felix has his and Mark you have yours.

 

That's the way of the world