The 2010 Nik Memorial Grading Contest *Round 10* Results

[osborn_fr]

9.0

 

It's time to buy PGX books.

[Mr. Zipper]

Oh my! I was so off on that grade it isn't even funny!

 

I thought CGC hammers on foxing!

 

Do they hammer for anything anymore? No way imo was the AF 15 1.5 with that chunk out

 

Yes, Staining. Staining will get absolutely hammered. Every time.

 

Don't most collectors consider foxing a type of stain? "Foxing stains" was the common term going way back.

[joe_collector]

Don't most collectors consider foxing a type of stain? "Foxing stains" was the common term going way back.

 

But the point is that lots of GA pedigree books have foxing, so in order to protect the dealers and collectors who are heavily vested in this stuff, CGC and OS (who are essentially run/controlled by the same people) have to protect this interest.

 

As CGC reps have said many times, if they tried to "change the rules" too much, dealers would have never come on board, so they just walked that same line.

 

No such luck with generic staining, so you're on your own there.

[VintageComics]

Don't most collectors consider foxing a type of stain? "Foxing stains" was the common term going way back.

 

But the point is that lots of GA pedigree books have foxing, so in order to protect the dealers and collectors who are heavily vested in this stuff, CGC and OS (who are essentially run/controlled by the same people) have to protect this interest.

 

As CGC reps have said many times, if they tried to "change the rules" too much, dealers would have never come on board, so they just walked that same line.

 

No such luck with generic staining, so you're on your own there.

 

But Overstreet allows foxing up to 9.4, depending on the severity.

 

 

Foxing may have been considered staining at one point but that was just a lack of knowledge speaking. It's not considered staining today and for good reason. Foxing comes in through the paper fibers whereas staining is introduced externally.

[joeypost]

Exactly what is that underneath the price box a color scrape or a crease?

We figured it for a crease.

Wrinkle in the paper. Looks like it was there during the printing process but ink never took to it.

[joeypost]

Oh my! I was so off on that grade it isn't even funny!

 

I thought CGC hammers on foxing!

 

Do they hammer for anything anymore? No way imo was the AF 15 1.5 with that chunk out

 

Yes, Staining. Staining will get absolutely hammered. Every time.

 

Popped staples.

Color breaking creases.

Rusty staples.

Fading

Finger prints/smudges.

[joe_collector]

Don't most collectors consider foxing a type of stain? "Foxing stains" was the common term going way back.

 

But the point is that lots of GA pedigree books have foxing, so in order to protect the dealers and collectors who are heavily vested in this stuff, CGC and OS (who are essentially run/controlled by the same people) have to protect this interest.

 

As CGC reps have said many times, if they tried to "change the rules" too much, dealers would have never come on board, so they just walked that same line.

 

No such luck with generic staining, so you're on your own there.

 

But Overstreet allows foxing up to 9.4, depending on the severity.

 

Yes, as noted in the reply you failed to read:

 

CGC and OS (who are essentially run/controlled by the same people) have to protect this interest.

 

This happened LONG before CGC, hence the "not wanting to break the rules" comment.

 

As as for the "foxing is different" comment, I totally disagree, as foxing is caused by a type of fungus/mold resulting from poor storage with high humidity/access to excessive moisture, and CGC hammers other "user error/bad storage conditions" like dust shadows, tanning, rusty staples, sun fading, ambient moisture warping/stains, etc.

 

Foxing is no different than any of those other "environmental flaws", it's just under the Pedigree Protection Plan initiative.

[joe_collector]

And in case newbs do not know what foxing is, here is a comment taken from a museum text:

 

"Foxing" refers to brown spots caused by one type of mold, a saprophytic fungus (living on dead organic matter). The fungus destroys the sizing in paper and discolors it. Although almost any dark spotting is frequently referred to as foxing in non-scientific condition reports on Japanese prints, some of these discolorations are actually spot staining from different molds or other sources. Technically, foxing requires that the paper has been infected by a saprophytic fungus.

 

Sometimes analysis under a microscope or under UV radiation is required to confirm the nature of a mold. One difference is that some molds appear "furry" when viewed by eye, whereas foxing does not. The etiology of foxing is still not clear. It may be caused by chemical reactions between iron salts in the paper and organic acids released by fungi. It is also possible that decomposition products of cellulose have settled in the areas made spongy by the activity of fungi, after which the spots have then darkened with time and dampness (see reference below).

 

It is helpful to note that relative humidity below 70% would be too low for the growth of fungi in paper. Thus we have a clue to preventing or at least controlling it. Conservators recommend that you (1) keep your print storage areas below 70% RH, (2) periodically inspect your prints, and (3) avoid damp, still air. Unfortunately, although a fungus can be controlled (deactivated) by correcting atmospheric conditions, it cannot be killed that way. Fungi spores tend to be very small, are pretty much everywhere, and can travel through air. They may even be present naturally as spores in almost all untreated papers. Thus fungi will lie dormant, waiting for the conditions that will promote their growth.

[paperheart]

Exactly what is that underneath the price box a color scrape or a crease?

We figured it for a crease.

Wrinkle in the paper. Looks like it was there during the printing process but ink never took to it.

 

inside info. i graded it 7.5 due to the foxing and the "wrinkle."

[drewincanada]

Exactly what is that underneath the price box a color scrape or a crease?

We figured it for a crease.

Wrinkle in the paper. Looks like it was there during the printing process but ink never took to it.

 

inside info. i graded it 7.5 due to the foxing and the "wrinkle."

 

I also graded it 7.5, but due to the fact that I'm an insufficiently_thoughtful_person.

[Senormac]

Exactly what is that underneath the price box a color scrape or a crease?

We figured it for a crease.

Wrinkle in the paper. Looks like it was there during the printing process but ink never took to it.

 

inside info. i graded it 7.5 due to the foxing and the "wrinkle."

 

I also graded it 7.5, but due to the fact that I'm an insufficiently_thoughtful_person.

 

[joeypost]

Don't most collectors consider foxing a type of stain? "Foxing stains" was the common term going way back.

 

But the point is that lots of GA pedigree books have foxing, so in order to protect the dealers and collectors who are heavily vested in this stuff, CGC and OS (who are essentially run/controlled by the same people) have to protect this interest.

 

As CGC reps have said many times, if they tried to "change the rules" too much, dealers would have never come on board, so they just walked that same line.

 

No such luck with generic staining, so you're on your own there.

 

But Overstreet allows foxing up to 9.4, depending on the severity.

 

 

Foxing may have been considered staining at one point but that was just a lack of knowledge speaking. It's not considered staining today and for good reason. Foxing comes in through the paper fibers whereas staining is introduced externally.

 

I am just swinging wildly here, but I base what I say on recent submissions and observations.

 

CGC seems to be dinging books with foxing harder than they have in the past. I purchased a silver age book off a boardie around 2 years ago and for some reason waited too long to have it re-graded. I pressed out what I thought was a considerable amount of defects. I was hoping for a .5 grade bump even taking into account it had moderate or worse foxing.

 

It returned a full grade lower than it had been while in the old holder with the old label. Structurally the book improved with the pressing, but they absolutely hammered it for the foxing.

[Dick Pontoon]

If Watson really wants to toy with us, rather than notes he should tell us when the books were graded.

[inconceivable]

Don't most collectors consider foxing a type of stain? "Foxing stains" was the common term going way back.

 

But the point is that lots of GA pedigree books have foxing, so in order to protect the dealers and collectors who are heavily vested in this stuff, CGC and OS (who are essentially run/controlled by the same people) have to protect this interest.

 

As CGC reps have said many times, if they tried to "change the rules" too much, dealers would have never come on board, so they just walked that same line.

 

No such luck with generic staining, so you're on your own there.

 

But Overstreet allows foxing up to 9.4, depending on the severity.

 

 

Foxing may have been considered staining at one point but that was just a lack of knowledge speaking. It's not considered staining today and for good reason. Foxing comes in through the paper fibers whereas staining is introduced externally.

 

I am just swinging wildly here, but I base what I say on recent submissions and observations.

 

CGC seems to be dinging books with foxing harder than they have in the past. I purchased a silver age book off a boardie around 2 years ago and for some reason waited too long to have it re-graded. I pressed out what I thought was a considerable amount of defects. I was hoping for a .5 grade bump even taking into account it had moderate or worse foxing.

 

It returned a full grade lower than it had been while in the old holder with the old label. Structurally the book improved with the pressing, but they absolutely hammered it for the foxing.

 

That is what I thought. So I hammered the book. I was the one who got hammered though.

 

Dan

[Hibou]

A-ha!

 

And so therein lies the key... get hammered before hammering a book therefore when you get hammered from the hammered hammering... it won't feel so bad!

 

 

 

[GACollectibles]

Can't touch this.

[DrWatson]

Did you see his grade? Who'd want to?

[VintageComics]

I am just swinging wildly here, but I base what I say on recent submissions and observations.

 

CGC seems to be dinging books with foxing harder than they have in the past. I purchased a silver age book off a boardie around 2 years ago and for some reason waited too long to have it re-graded. I pressed out what I thought was a considerable amount of defects. I was hoping for a .5 grade bump even taking into account it had moderate or worse foxing.

 

It returned a full grade lower than it had been while in the old holder with the old label. Structurally the book improved with the pressing, but they absolutely hammered it for the foxing.

 

My man, I have no doubt that they are tougher on it than they used to be but this book did get a CGC 9.0 grade and as soon as I saw the book that was the first grade that popped into my mind so there does seem to be some methodology to their handling of foxing.

 

One other thing to consider, unlike an actually specific defect with a definite shape or size, grading with foxing can be subjective as you can't measure the amount or the darkness of the foxing so at best it's going to be an educated guess.

 

Did you actually confirm that the foxing was the main reason for the drop in grade?

 

[VintageComics]

Foxing is no different than any of those other "environmental flaws", it's just under the Pedigree Protection Plan initiative.

 

The greatest collection find of all time is the Church Pedigree. I doubt if even 1% of those books contain foxing. There might be a rule made to preserve pedigrees but if so, I have a hard time seeing foxing as being the game breaker. Was it done because of the Larson find? Possible, as it is one of the earliest Ped finds in the hobby and a very impressive one at that.

 

Also, an interesting observation that you might want to remember. I notice that books with foxing typically have exceptional paper quality. The Larson and the D/Crippen books were heavy on foxing and from my experience those pedigrees, even though they were stored in conditions that were not ideal, had great page quality.

 

If I'm not mistaken the Larson Ped. was actually stored in a barn and is renowned for having great page quality.

 

For some reason the conditions that are ideal for creating foxing are also ideal for preserving page quality in the interior pages of the books.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Don't most collectors consider foxing a type of stain? "Foxing stains" was the common term going way back.

 

But the point is that lots of GA pedigree books have foxing, so in order to protect the dealers and collectors who are heavily vested in this stuff, CGC and OS (who are essentially run/controlled by the same people) have to protect this interest.

 

As CGC reps have said many times, if they tried to "change the rules" too much, dealers would have never come on board, so they just walked that same line.

 

No such luck with generic staining, so you're on your own there.

 

But Overstreet allows foxing up to 9.4, depending on the severity.

 

 

Foxing may have been considered staining at one point but that was just a lack of knowledge speaking. It's not considered staining today and for good reason. Foxing comes in through the paper fibers whereas staining is introduced externally.

 

I am just swinging wildly here, but I base what I say on recent submissions and observations.

 

CGC seems to be dinging books with foxing harder than they have in the past. I purchased a silver age book off a boardie around 2 years ago and for some reason waited too long to have it re-graded. I pressed out what I thought was a considerable amount of defects. I was hoping for a .5 grade bump even taking into account it had moderate or worse foxing.

 

It returned a full grade lower than it had been while in the old holder with the old label. Structurally the book improved with the pressing, but they absolutely hammered it for the foxing.

I felt we should have been told foxing does not effect grade for the round. But eff it.