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Detective #27 Proof Pages

Started by nearmint,

86 posts in this topic

markseifert

markseifert

Posted
Posted

You know what else... the actual comic-size/format reprints from the 1968-75 period would mean Sparta, correct?

 

(I'd be less certain about the FFE version)

 

There should be examples of DC Sparta-originated proofs, untrimmed materials with press markings, etc. out there from that period for comparison.

 

And come to think of it, IF we presume this is printing plant generated material, then Kane ending up with a proof generated in Sparta may be less likely than it would be if it originated from some NY-area printer.

 

Again inconclusive, but another data point.

 

edited to add: And that brings up another major point. We should be considering what can be derived from this re Golden Age vs Silver Age page size.

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jgallo

jgallo

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Posted

One other thing to note though is all the other stuff found with these. Would not these being present with the other proofs and odd ball stuff indicate the age. I mean I would really doubt these could be from the 70s and the Batman 5 pages as well. I don't know what thye are but I would think how, where and what they were found with should count for something anad help date them.

 

James G

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50YrsCollctngCmcs

50YrsCollctngCmcs

Posted
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GCD says the reprints between 1967 and 1975 include:

 

* Batman (DC, 1940 series) #200 (March 1968) [one page only]

* Detective Comics (DC, 1937 series) #387 (May 1969)

* Batman from the Thirties to the Seventies (Crown Publishers, Inc., 1971 series) #73-168329

* Famous First Edition (DC, 1974 series) #C-28 (1974)

 

 

Was the Detective 27 story reprinted in Jules Feiffer's mid sixties book on the great comic heroes? If so it would be added to the list above and be another area to look at for a source for these proofs with the possibility of a local New York publisher.

 

Also, weren't there some mid sixties Batman paperbacks that reprinted comic stories? I'm not sure if any of these contained any reprints of the original origin story.

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bluechip

bluechip

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Posted
You know what else... the actual comic-size/format reprints from the 1968-75 period would mean Sparta, correct?

 

(I'd be less certain about the FFE version)

 

There should be examples of DC Sparta-originated proofs, untrimmed materials with press markings, etc. out there from that period for comparison.

 

And come to think of it, IF we presume this is printing plant generated material, then Kane ending up with a proof generated in Sparta may be less likely than it would be if it originated from some NY-area printer.

 

Again inconclusive, but another data point.

 

edited to add: And that brings up another major point. We should be considering what can be derived from this re Golden Age vs Silver Age page size.

 

While the GA original art size was considerably larger than SA, cI've seen proofs from the 40s printed on newsprint at normal page size. But of course normal page size varies from the GA to SA, too. So it would be a good question to ask HA if the mendions of the image ares on the proof itself are typical GA or SA. If it was SA (reduced) size, that would be odd for a GA proof

 

 

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markseifert

markseifert

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Posted

While the GA original art size was considerably larger than SA, cI've seen proofs from the 40s printed on newsprint at normal page size.

 

Well, the important thing is width/height ratio, rather than actual size. (GA pages are proportionally wider than SA pages. Reprints of GA pages in standard comics of later ages have noticeably more space at the top and bottom of the page to compensate)

 

Here's my thinking on this:

 

PRESUMING: 1) this was generated at the printer, and 2) the "crop marks" are at least close to indicative of the actual trimmed page, then at a glance those sure look like GA-proportioned pages to me.

 

I'll take some time to verify later, but given those two things you can start to make a case that these were generated in the GA... and IF they were in fact generated at the printer, you're starting to make a pretty good case that means 1939.

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markseifert

markseifert

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Recieved some info from Barry Sandoval at Heritage on these. Of particular interest to me at the moment is the size (and at the time I had asked specifically about the FFE possibility):

 

The white panel area alone (i.e. including the white border but not the black border) is 7 x 9 5/8 inches, if you add the black border it's about 7 1/2 by 10 1/2.

 

i.e. the panel area is about 1 3/4 inches shorter than a Famous First Edition panel area.

 

While this is inconclusive in regards to page trim size (though this is probably unsurprising considering the state of what we're seeing here). In terms of actual image area (panel size), this translates to roughly 6 1/2" x 9 1/4" panel area -- which very closely corresponds to the panel area of a 1940 DC I happen to have handy.

 

So, fwiw it looks like this is probably actual GA print size.

 

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markseifert

markseifert

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Posted

From comicart-l:

 

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/comicart-l/message/319592

 

 

Re: 'Tec 27 Production art surfaces!

 

I have 25 complete comic books of this kind of proofs dating from

September 1941 (Blue Bolt V2 #4)- April 1943 (Marvel Mystery #42).

They were sent by the printer to the publisher to check out the

engraving for any corrections.

 

These from Detective are clearly original, same size as printed comic

books, proofs. The color art posted on bleedingcool.com are redrawn/

touched up. If you look at an original Detective 27 (I haven't) I'm

sure you'll find that some of the fine lines have dropped out and

some of the small white areas have filled in due to the printing

process for comic books at the time.

 

Robert Wiener

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

Posted
Posted
Recieved some info from Barry Sandoval at Heritage on these. Of particular interest to me at the moment is the size (and at the time I had asked specifically about the FFE possibility):

 

The white panel area alone (i.e. including the white border but not the black border) is 7 x 9 5/8 inches, if you add the black border it's about 7 1/2 by 10 1/2.

 

i.e. the panel area is about 1 3/4 inches shorter than a Famous First Edition panel area.

 

While this is inconclusive in regards to page trim size (though this is probably unsurprising considering the state of what we're seeing here). In terms of actual image area (panel size), this translates to roughly 6 1/2" x 9 1/4" panel area -- which very closely corresponds to the panel area of a 1940 DC I happen to have handy.

 

So, fwiw it looks like this is probably actual GA print size.

 

What I can't get past is the point dramatically made by BB-Gun's examples. I've never seen a "proof" that looks like this thing. This thing doesn't look at all like the "color proofs" from the same seller. It doesn't look like the cover proofs sold by Sotheby's back in the day.

 

To me, the black border makes this look like it wasn't printed from a plate or if it was, it was a plate of a stat. And if its second generation, e.g., a reproduction of an earlier proof, then it might very well be GA proportioned but generated a later date. [One thing I'm curious about is whether there were any b&w foreign reprints of D27.]

 

Still, in the end, I doubt anyone will ever be able to prove in any conclusive way what this thing is. The one guy who might have known, Bob Kane, was apparently never asked during the 20+ years he was alive after the discovery of this thing, perhaps because the seller had some qualms about bringing the thing to Kane's attention given how it was acquired.

 

Personally, I think it is a mistake, perhaps even fraud, to claim that this thing constitutes a 1939 production proof. At best, it's a leap of faith given the absence of witnesses to authenticate this thing, the absence of similar authenticated "proofs" as points of comparison, and the fact that the document is not self-authenticating.

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

Posted
Posted
From comicart-l:

 

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/comicart-l/message/319592

 

 

Re: 'Tec 27 Production art surfaces!

 

I have 25 complete comic books of this kind of proofs dating from

September 1941 (Blue Bolt V2 #4)- April 1943 (Marvel Mystery #42).

They were sent by the printer to the publisher to check out the

engraving for any corrections.

 

These from Detective are clearly original, same size as printed comic

books, proofs. The color art posted on bleedingcool.com are redrawn/

touched up. If you look at an original Detective 27 (I haven't) I'm

sure you'll find that some of the fine lines have dropped out and

some of the small white areas have filled in due to the printing

process for comic books at the time.

 

Robert Wiener

 

I didn't see this before my last post. Still, I remain skeptical. Does he post any scans of his proofs for comparison purposes? Do they have the funky black borders? Or are they kind of proofs I've seen before, and which BB-Gun posted?

 

Obviously, if he's got "proofs" with the same type of borders and markings on them from the same time period, I think that would give rise to a clear inference, albeit it wouldn't eliminate all doubt. But, for this kind of object, I don't think doubt can be eliminated. So if his "proofs" can create the inference, that would be good enough for me. I'd like to see a picture of some of them.

 

Not really material to my skepticism, but why does Weiner think that a proof would have more detail than the original printed object? Is he saying that "proofs" of this type were made from a different plate or engraving than the original comics?

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markseifert

markseifert

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Posted

Not really material to my skepticism, but why does Weiner think that a proof would have more detail than the original printed object? Is he saying that "proofs" of this type were made from a different plate or engraving than the original comics?

 

The plate would be the same, but you'd have to presume the process and perhaps even inks are different. The production press is of course designed for quanity and speed, and not to produce a sheet or two.

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1962

1962

Posted
Posted

Live Bidding has not even started yet and every page has a current bid of $4,750 to $8,000. Quite a leap of faith for pages that are questionable as to validity and in addition are extremely brittle. :eek:

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markseifert

markseifert

Posted
Posted
Live Bidding has not even started yet and every page has a current bid of $4,750 to $8,000.

 

Yep. I took a shot at what I thought was likely going to be the cheapest Batman page with a $4600 bid. Ah well.

 

Fwiw -- There's going to be a lot of disagreement on this point but based on what I put together (size, material, nature of the image, and the anecdotal info of what was with them) I'm about 75% sure they are what they say they are. I'd love to see them in person someday.

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sfcityduck

sfcityduck

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Given that a D27 is worth $1,000,000+, I am not surprised that someone would pay more than 1% of that price for what they think is a unique proof page of Batman's first appearance in costume. A proof page is the next best thing to the original art.

 

I am surprised, though, that folks are so willing to accept that these are, in fact, proof pages when they are not self-authenticating and the provenance is clouded (factually and ethically). If the seller had gotten Bob Kane to authenticate these things back when he was alive, I bet the price would be a LOT higher -- because right now the buyers are making significant leaps of faith. Think about how much these would be worth if Bob Kane had autographed them and signed a certificate of authenticity. I can speculate why the buyer didn't seek that out, and have little sympathy if the price on these things ends up being a fraction of what it could otherwise have been.

 

While I recognize the condition of these things would be a huge problem if they were comic books, they're not. I would not view the condition as a problem if a conservator can stablilize the paper. If I were buying them my first call would be to a good conservator. My assumption is the piece could be periodically de-acidified and treated with an alkaline buffer. If I bought a page, I would probably pursue lamination, linen backing, or encapsulation to keep it from falling apart, and ensure it could be safely framed. For this kind of item, conservation is a plus -- just as in the fine art world -- not a minus.

 

 

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